About hate-mail and other online abuse.

[Malcador]

Precisely, just stating the obvious. Any standing up for basic decency and laws and rules should be ho-hum second nature. Funny how common it is that level-headed maturity is followed by belittling remarks on the internet. Perhaps it is a matter of that screen again, and feeling big behind it?

Still nothing horrible about that. Maybe I am just jaded.

[Chrononaut]

 

 

 People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

There are certainly cases as you describe. I've seen them on Kickstarter and in other places. What I try to be sensible about is the dogpiling in the first place. If someone, like Hepler, has made something you don't like, it's enough to tell them so, then the criticism can be devoid of bullying and threats and all that. Just tell the person that it sucks and why, and leave it at that.

 

P.S. I hate DA2 and ME3, just to get that out of the way.

 

Obviously, insults serve no point and as a previous poster pointed out, they dilute and destroy whatever legitimate criticism there was under all the garbage and angst.

[Sarex]

Guys, chill. What it boils down to is that kids and immature people go to the internet and actively search for people to vent on. The kids do this because they are not aware of the things they are saying (or at least the magnitude of the words they write), as for the others, well, they are just cowards who hide behind the invisible wall.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Sarex

[Agremont]

I am not referring to this forum in particular, but to the internet in general. People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to ignore something that you've already read.

 

I've also never understood people who attack the ones that gets attacked. I mean really.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Agremont

[KillerClowns]

I am not referring to this forum in particular, but to the internet in general. People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

[citation needed]

Edited August 16, 2013 by KillerClowns

[Chrononaut]

 

I am not referring to this forum in particular, but to the internet in general. People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to ignore something that you've already read.

 

I've also never understood people who attack the ones that gets attacked. I mean really.

 

Do you really expect me to care about someone who has expressly stated that my hobby (CRPGs, more traditional computer games) should not exist because it's too niche?

 

The insults that the internet trolls threw at her put aside, I couldn't give a crap. The less of those vile posers in the industry trying to ruin games, the better.

[Sarex]

Ok, I want to add one more thing.

 

Yes you should grow a thick skin when talking on the internet, but imagine this. You work for a company that requires you to have constant contact with the people on the internet, ie. something like public relations, Then someone threatens you or worse yet your family. Now, as you work on the internet, you are not exactly incognito and it's not that far fetched that someone can figure out where you live and worse yet, years of exposure to the internet have introduced you to how bad/strange/mad people can be, it's not that strange that you could get unnerved. I mean you know that 99% it's some kid or a pathetic ****, but what if...

[Chrononaut]

Ok, I want to add one more thing.

 

Yes you should grow a thick skin when talking on the internet, but imagine this. You work for a company that requires you to have constant contact with the people on the internet, ie. something like public relations, Then someone threatens you or worse yet your family. Now, as you work on the internet, you are not exactly incognito and it's not that far fetched that someone can figure out where you live and worse yet, years of exposure to the internet have introduced you to how bad/strange/mad people can be, it's not that strange that you could get unnerved. I mean you know that 99% it's some kid or a pathetic ****, but what if...

Sure, I never justified any of the alleged threats and insults.

[Agremont]

 

 

I am not referring to this forum in particular, but to the internet in general. People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to ignore something that you've already read.

 

I've also never understood people who attack the ones that gets attacked. I mean really.

 

Do you really expect me to care about someone who has expressly stated that my hobby (CRPGs, more traditional computer games) should not exist because it's too niche?

 

The insults that the internet trolls threw at her put aside, I couldn't give a crap. The less of those vile posers in the industry trying to ruin games, the better.

 

 

No, but why try and make it out like the person has got an agenda? Like there isn't a genuine reason to be upset that some one posts horrible death threats about your children "because the internet".

Edited August 16, 2013 by Agremont

[LadyCrimson]

Thread pruned.

 

IndiraLightfoot referred to a couple of the Forum Guidelines a bit earlier, and I'll refer to another one:

 

We've worked and continue to work with various people at many game companies, and it is not within the spirit of our forums to allow disrespectful posts about other company's policies, employees, or moderators. It's OK to say you don't like a game, but referring to another company's employees or the company itself is simply not be tolerated here.

In other words, it's fine/great to say you didn't like the writing or gameplay choices in a game because they weren't to your personal tastes, or the general discussion of what effect internet abuse may have on the pysche, but around here, best to try to leave actual, personalized belittlement out of it. Thanks.

[Sarex]

We've worked and continue to work with various people at many game companies, and it is not within the spirit of our forums to allow disrespectful posts about other company's policies, employees, or moderators. It's OK to say you don't like a game, but referring to another company's employees or the company itself is simply not be tolerated here.

In other words, it's fine/great to say you didn't like the writing or gameplay choices in a game because they weren't to your personal tastes, or the general discussion of what effect internet abuse may have on the pysche, but around here, best to try to leave actual, personalized belittlement out of it. Thanks.

 

In other words please don't let this forum turn in to BSN. XD

[BruceVC]

 

 

 People who cry victim over insults on the internet instead of just ignoring it, blocking the person or whatever, usually have an agenda. Which is why every time Hepler is "insulted" on the net, some new article on a games site pops out trying to make out that this is an issue of sexism or something.

 

Professional victims with social-justice agendas, if no one insulted these people then they'd be inventing imaginary people to insult them.

 

There are certainly cases as you describe. I've seen them on Kickstarter and in other places. What I try to be sensible about is the dogpiling in the first place. If someone, like Hepler, has made something you don't like, it's enough to tell them so, then the criticism can be devoid of bullying and threats and all that. Just tell the person that it sucks and why, and leave it at that.

 

P.S. I hate DA2 and ME3, just to get that out of the way.

 

 

Indira !!! I'm shocked, I can't believe you used the hate word. I didn't think you even knew that word. This doesn't sound you  You are always so polite, informative and friendly. Don't become jaded. I like your normal posting style

 

Also I reject this view that because its the Internet we can't do anything about rude or bigoted comments. That's just an excuse for people to do nothing as sometimes its easier to be non-confrontational. It starts with you as a person and we need to make a conscious decision to challenge any comments that are offensive. So if someone says something that is unacceptable, you need to say something. Be polite, there is no need to degrade yourself to there level but be firm and make it obvious you don't like it or find it funny 

Edited August 17, 2013 by BruceVC

[nikolokolus]

I can't help but think Robert E. Howard had it right, " Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”

[IndiraLightfoot]

BruceVC: Thank you!

 

And indeed, it came out a bit hard, didn't it? I was so into proving the point that it's okay to say what you like about a game or a feature in a game, etc., but the rest of the bullying and other barbaric tendencies should be left out, full stop. There is a line in real life, and the same standards should apply over the internet as well. Internet is no rampage carte blanche for one's reptilian part of the brain.  

[septembervirgin]

I'm against hate mail.  I far prefer scale mail.

[LadyCrimson]

I'm against hate mail.  I far prefer scale mail.

I still have a soft spot for snail mail.

[Lephys]

I still have a soft spot for snail mail.

I can't help but envision some armor made from the linked together shells of a thousand snails when I read this.

[Tauron]

 

Nice article JFSOCC

 

But I have a solution to reduce the level of vehemence and criticism.... avoid Social Media. Its as simple as that. The author says "You can't give up on Twitter, because it's too good of a tool for interaction with your fans". That's nonsense,  people choose to use Social Media as a means to communicate. What did people do 4 years to give updates? If I was a victim of abuse I would just use a website and post weekly comments. There is this real problem where people feel the need to update everyone all the time on what they doing and why they do it. And end of the day you become a victim of a tool that you don't need to use.

 

Of course I'm  not suggesting the level of abuse is acceptable but you won't change people making emotional comments so just remove the mechanism they use from your life and I promise you your stress levels will decrease

I think it's not as easy as you think to give up a tool which may in the end help your sales. Because for all of the vitriol, social media does have a strong impact. I don't think it's as easy to avoid, especially once you've started using it.

 

 

While it's true that some hate always gets thrown around you have to learn how to deal with it since you can[sic] prevent it. I do think many Obsidian devs are capable of that, as they have been dealing with the codex for years. You just can't let it get too close emotionally.

From the Article:

'Someone on Twitter told Jonathan Blow that you can just ignore these messages.

 

“This is false,” he replied. “We can't choose to ignore it. As soon as the words are read, they have already hit emotionally.”'

The case of Phil Fish reflected in the article, though.... is a special one.

 

Because he invented it 100% for himself. He constantly acts arrogant, insults people (openly at a indie panel he (and others) went down on another dev) and acts all scared when someone actually goes after him. He can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

As such I don't actually have much sympathy with the guy. Grow up.

That is victim blaming. Phil Fish acting outside of social mores doesn't give people the right to send abuse his way. Nor do we know if it's cause or consequence. I've seen it happen before recently that someone blew up after suffering abuse for hours on end, and then got seen as the ****. It's important to know the context.

 

they aren't on the forums as much because they're working on the vertical slice. it's ok to be critical of their decisions because that is what they wanted. some people are obnoxious but there are still enough good people out there that realize that obsidian is awesome at what they do for people like Sawyer and co to realize we appreciate their efforts.

 

these guys are professionals. the amount of bile they have to deal with when dealing with scum that are publishers is NOTHING compared to a few dummy comments from puerile children about a specific game mechanic. someone saying "wahh I hate crafting skill" isn't going to take food away from the mouths of the dev's family; bonuses based on obnoxious metacritic scores does.

You don't get to see all the feedback, so it's not possible to get an accurate image for us, but I hope you're right.

And yes, of course we should be able to field criticism.

 

I suspected as much. it's a rare case for a person to have enough hate against him from a group and for him to have done no wrong.

I'm reminded of a quote by Patrick Stewart, fairly recently, about victim blaming:

"As a child, I heard in my home doctors and ambulance men say, 'Mrs Stewart, you must have done something to provoke him', 'Mrs Stewart, it takes two to make an argument'," he said.

 

"Wrong, wrong.

 

"My mother did nothing to provoke that and even if she had, violence is never, ever a choice that a man should make."

I think it can be applied broader. Just because Phil Fish isn't very good at dealing with the pressure, doesn't give people the right to send hate filled messages his way under the pretence of "he had it coming"

 

It seems to me that one can have a professional online presence with the simple adherence to a few ground rules. Do not take youtube comments to heart for instance.

 

As a public persona trying to get something out of that presence in the form of word of mouth, promotion etc. you are also going to take abuse. That's just the nature of the beast.

It's all a show though. They aren't your friends and the persona you share isn't the real you.

 

It's potentially dangerous to become addicted to the buzz around your persona, and if you start confusing that buzz with real sentiment you could get hurt. So, maybe stepping back from the whole thing for a while is a good idea.

 

So, basically Boo Hoo cry me a river.

I repeat:

Someone on Twitter told Jonathan Blow that you can just ignore these messages.

 

“This is false,” he replied. “We can't choose to ignore it. As soon as the words are read, they have already hit emotionally.”

You simply can't not take it to heart. 

 

Phil Fish said "suck my ****. Choke on it" upon winning a award. It nearly does. The guy's terrible himself.

 

And I didn't say anything about the codex discussions. In context I was referring to the codex rough nature/environment.

I don't know the context in which that happened, but two wrongs still don't make a right.

 

I hope this doesnt come off insensitive but it is to regard to Patrick Stwart quote, it is just hilarious : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlvvCYUDHrQ

[rustypup]

Frankly, it's the internet. It's a sordid mishmash of conflicting cultures, sexualities, ages and depravity.

 

Taking anything it spews out at face value, (or worse yet, internalising it), speaks to a psychological defect.

 

You would not accept an impossible invitation from that grammar-deprived prince to invest in extracting illicit funds from some African state, so why in the name of all that is cute and furry would you care if he called you a bilge-swilling necrophiliac? 

 

There is a disturbing trend in the media to lend credence to the babbling idiocy which is social media, so I guess we can expect more public examples of emotional distress in the face of anonymous drivel. Because the mindless utterances of passive aggressive nincompoops matters. 

 

If I were to stand in a crowded room and voice an opinion or start painting a picture, I'm going to get criticised. Not only that, some of them will be unbalanced to varying degrees. A small but significant number will be religious zealots incapable of processing the real world in a healthy way.

 

The trick is recognising this and realising that this is *their* problem, not mine. 

 

If, on the other hand, I imagine the world exists purely to bolster my ego and never rub me the wrong way, then I am skirting the very edge of madness and should be led gently away to a padded room somewhere before my delicate constitution gets bruised. 

 

It's a public forum. No special dispensation. No magical anti-critic/psycho shield. Deal with it. If you can't deal with it, stay away. Don't climb in face first then bleat about how you lost a tooth. 

[Agremont]

@ rustypup

 

The problem is when it becomes more than just random insults. Like when people find out where their victim lives and threatens to kill their family. You just don't ignore that. That's beyond ignoring.

 

Again, just because it's the internet doesn't mean that one should just suck it up. And I'm not talking about random youtube comments and things like that, but threats and pure harassment.

[rustypup]

just because it's the internet doesn't mean that one should just suck it up

 

The world is well populated with a large number of mentally unstable people. There is nothing any particular individual can do about that. When you enter the public frame of reference you are in all likelihood going to attract the attentions of a small fraction of the pool. Is this fair? I don't know. I do know that world doesn't abide by any commonly accepted standard of "fair". 

 

Requiring that this not happen is like standing with our collective hands on our hips demanding an immediate cessation of all hostilities and a return to good cinema. 

[Gyges]

You know who has steel skin? Bioware.

[rustypup]

That hacking sound is a guffaw... 

[Infinitron]

Why is this thread in the Project Eternity forum

[Gfted1]

Why is this thread in the Project Eternity forum

And I'm posting this as a sort of public service announcement for civility and friendly debate.

Game developers have to deal with a ton of stress from social interaction. And any single post could be taken with grace.

But we're a social DDOS. When a group of people gets passionate, you're not going to get that negativity once, you'll get it from a lot of sources at once. Often all for the same thing.