Milestones, signposts and streetnames

[Eiphel]

 

What you say makes sense to some degree. It might be fine if one could turn such quest markers on and off. I still think though that well written journal entries eliminate the need for quest markers, but I'm sure they result in more work for the designers.

While I don't understand why you'd want to turn them off, from a "you shouldn't have to work at something that your character already intuitively knows" standpoint, I guess something like that could be toggle-able, just for more challenge?

 

But, just so you're clear on it, the suggestion isn't for your character to simply always know where everything is because it's harder for the player to figure such things out. It's to have things that your character WOULD intuitively know be marked for your character (to represent the idea that you already know it, rather than having the player spend 15 minutes searching, with mouse-and-topdown-view, for something on the ground, or some identifiable marking that your character has easily been able to see for the past 15 minutes).

 

If it's done right, you shouldn't really ever feel the need to turn it off, at least not for the reason that it's arbitrarily taking away your need to actually discover and search for things. You'll just only have to search for things that are unknown in location/aesthetics, rather than having to do it for EVERYthing.

 

I was assuming more that they wanted them off/togglable because the actual visual UI aspect distracted them/broke immersion and they didn't like that.

[Lephys]

I was assuming more that they wanted them off/togglable because the actual visual UI aspect distracted them/broke immersion and they didn't like that.

My mistake. I was picking up a "let me toggle those, you know... for the people who want to actually figure out where to go" vibe. Maybe I misread the tone.

[forgottenlor]

Its the question of comfort vs. an organic game feeling. For me the old Ultima series for example was too much of the former. You gathered a whole bunch of items and had to figure out when to use them at certain points by massive trial and error, but other people really loved it, because the world seemed organic. World of Warcraft is the other extreme, where massive number of colored markers are just hanging everywhere. It adds a lot of comfort, but detracts from feeling part of the world.

[Ieo]

I like sign posts and store signs and definitely not metagamey quest markers on the minimap.

 

I also would love to see "fuzzy" quest directions like "about twenty paces east of the bear statue" or "south of the river mouth and east of the dragon's nest" or "travel north until snow wets the ground" and stuff like that. Just need a compass.

 

But besides the in-game markers of whatever type, I really want the ability to add my own waypoints/markers to the world map in my "journal." There were threads about this in the mechanics/whatever sub-forum.

 

P.S.:

 

@Eiphel

 

 

I don't think they make any sense when we're talking about somewhere/something that the character, in-universe, is supposed to be already familiar with.

 

This is easy to get around in game design. Many games, including the IE games, ensure your character is familiar with only a small geographic area before setting out, and that honestly makes sense in these types of old fantasy settings. You might have heard about Athkatla or whatever big city far to the north, but the vast majority of people won't travel very far from their village, and the only news you get are rumors and such from people who do travel more. Obsidian just needs to be cautious about putting too many metagame crutches into the UI; as long as there are options, though, I think we're all covered.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Ieo

[eimatshya]

I'm fine with not having quest markers, as I think they do detract from the immersiveness of the game world. However, if there aren't any quest markers, I'd like it if the directions you're given are recorded in your journal for reference later on. It's very annoying when someone tells you where something is, but then you forget what they said and can't get the directions again.

[Nonek]

Very good idea.

[5ir_Phobos]

Quest markers take away from the game.  Directions or relating to landmarks are the bread and butter of RPG's.  I learned about directions and finding things IRL by wondering around dungeons endlessly looking for the next level down. and then running back up the dungeon brutally chasing down monsters and hacking away at them.  Quest markers take away from exploring all the nooks and crannies and caves because you get focused on the quests and never actually explore and find things.  Having convienence does not spur people to go off the path and slash your way through monsters

[okkoko]

what about npc looking to make money so a npc can show you around for a fee of gold coins like walk over to a poor looking fellow and offer him 3 gold coins if he show you the way to a weapon store/magic store/ or other store that how its done that in the city or a village.

 

while on the map you wont just get a quest marker point to where you have to go directly but you get it when you reach a specific destination like,

 

on the map you need to get from point A to point D but before you can go to point D you need to find point B after point B Point D and then point C and it will show that on the world map.

 

on them mile stones and singe post there could be a chat option where you could set the quest marker on the map or a waypointer

Edited July 26, 2013 by okkoko

[forgottenlor]

I'm fine with not having quest markers, as I think they do detract from the immersiveness of the game world. However, if there aren't any quest markers, I'd like it if the directions you're given are recorded in your journal for reference later on. It's very annoying when someone tells you where something is, but then you forget what they said and can't get the directions again.

 

I agree. The problem I have found in some games is that you get good directions at the outset only to get a vague summary of these directions in your journal. I'd prefer it in this case if they just quote the initial conversation, rather than try to sum things out and make directions too vague.

[JFSOCC]

I like the idea of having a map in your journal of places which you can manually mark and annotate.

[Eiphel]

I like the idea of having a map in your journal of places which you can manually mark and annotate.

The ability to mark your map and write your own notes is definitely something I'm wanting.

[mcmanusaur]

In my opinion, the 3D quest markers you see in Oblivion and Skyrim are the worst kind, and really the only thing I can think to compare it to is 3D spotting in the Battlefield series, which is equally controversial among the more old-school BF players. 3D markers/spotting is- in other words- when you have arrows in the actual 3D view, which is probably not too much of a concern for isometric RPGs, or when there's a compass that integrates some sort of distance component along with orientation. I actually prefer a combination of Morrowind's and ARMA's navigation systems.

 

What I would like to see modern RPGs do (though this is mostly assuming 3D graphics), is allow you to place map markers on a map menu tab (i.e. not the mini-map) either manually or automatically (quest NPCs add them for you). On the same map, there would always be a marker for your current location (though perhaps with some degree of uncertainty in wilderness areas for more hardcore players), which would then allow you to obtain the compass heading that you need to travel to reach your objective. Once that is determined, you would exit the menu and pull out your compass in-game, and travel in the correct direction. No floating quest markers or omnipresent compass/mini-map in the HUD/UI, but you still have a map to fall back on and the only requirement is that you can ascertain the desired direction from the map and use the compass decently enough.

 

For isometric games like PE, a small mini-map might be necessary to compensate for lack of freelook, but it may still be best if map markers didn't show up on the mini-map. And in terms of a character's pre-existing knowledge, I don't see why a certain portion of the map can't start off filled in (or without fog of war). I don't think 3D quest markers are needed to account for that, as long as we're not too attached to the idea of starting off with a blank map. For more specific directions that can't be represented on a large-scale map, like "his office is on the second floor", then I think you're best left on your own, as long as they're recorded in a journal somewhere. And if this is too hardcore for some people... I don't really know what to say; if you can't handle basic navigation then you simply may not be destined to be the best RPG player.

Edited July 26, 2013 by mcmanusaur