Romance, Marriage, Pregnancy and having Children.

[Lephys]

^ See? Look how reasonable that was. I don't think that hurt anyone... Did it, Flintlock?

 

Why can't everyone be that reasonable?

 

"Hey, I typically LOATHE ROMANCES in games, 'cause all the ones I've played have sucked. But, I suppose IF they do it way better than those games, it could maybe be cool."

 

"I really like romances, but they could obviously be done better than in a LOT of games."

 

I mean, I think we can all agree you shouldn't HAVE to romance someone in the game. And they shouldn't be arbitrary, or any number of other things that constitute objectively bad decisions regarding the implementation of the romance.

 

What does anyone's opinion of romances in general have to do with anything, other than to constructively analyze what's objectively good and bad about previous/existing implementations of romances, in an effort to determine how best to do one now, or whether it's even feasible?

 

If you just plain hate the idea of lovey-dovey feelings, in general, why insist that it's nowhere in the game?

 

"I hate Rangers... THEREFORE I DON'T WANT RANGERS TO EVEN BE A CLASS OPTION IN THE GAME, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL WITH RANGERS!"

 

That's about how silly that would be.

 

Clearly, IF they can do it really well, and it doesn't cost all their development resources, and they don't have to sacrifice any children or kittens, etc., they should put it in the game. It's conditional, so even if your stance is "I don't think they'll do it well!", or, heck, even "There's no WAY they'll do it well!", then that statement still stands. That's what "if" does. That's why it's used in programming. If they'll never do it well, then you have nothing to worry about. Using those conditions, it'll never be in the game if it isn't done well.

 

So, how's about either attempting to discuss the good and bad of romance implementation, or simply refraining from discussion? What does all this "Nuh uh! They're gonna do it crappily!", "Nuh uh! It's statistically probable that they'll do it well!" stuff accomplish? Absolutely nothing. Might as well just take some bets and call it a day, then see what happens when the game comes out.

[CrazyPea]

 

I wonder how much of this would cease if Obsidian made an official announcement.

Based on the way the internet/game forums tend to work ... not much would cease. The debate would probably just shift direction ... if/whenever the topic came up again. It's not a debate that is confined to a single game, really.

 

Course, I'm a cynical old bat.

 

I'm  a middle aged optimistic old bat, but I'm catching you up

[CrazyPea]

Oh my, this is still going is it?  Well, let this one fan the flames and throw his hat into the ring (and then grab it right back, you bastards ain't having my hat, it's too good for ya!).

 

I'm one of the people who is not a big fan of romance, and don't believe it is necessary for the game to be good, and often believe they detract from the game as quite often if you want any interaction out of the character you have to bone them, and I'd like to be nice to people and hear their stories without having to shove my **** in them.  I would consider myself an antiromancer I guess if you want labels, but I won't decry it like the anti-durability brigade did without giving it a chance.  I won't get upset if they are in the game, I might even enjoy them, but only if they are done right, which means not teen fan fic that seeks only to indulge the player's fantasies, and not at the expense of other kinds of relationships and interaction.  I am now going to go through the requirements the inclusion of romances would need to have before being condoned by yours truly:

 

First off, the inclusion of romances would only be allowed by myself if all other forms of possible relationship the writers wanted to include are in there and fully fleshed out.  I would actually like to experience some other kinds of interaction, comraderie and siblingdom for instance.  No calibrations please.

 

Second, the romance should not compromise the character in any way.  I remember having a 'discussion' with someone on the Bioware forums (yes I used to frequent them many years ago, I was younger and stupider and did not know better), I told them that I want romances to actually take note of the character and only have them come onto you if you actually acted and had the characteristics that they would be attracted to.  If Miss Buxom would never go out with a weedy mage type because she only likes muscle-bound thickos you should not be able to bed her.  Their response was that they already had to deal with that stuff in real life and didn't want to have to deal with it in a game, that they should get the girl/guy regardless so that they can enjoy it, I'm sorry but if you want that then you are indeed after wish fulfillment indulgence and not after 'depth' of character if you are willing to compromise the character like that. 

 

Third, I should not feel like every man, woman and child is trying to get into my pants.  You just chat with people in DAO or ME2 and people are clambering to get into your pants!  I gave my character a charisma of 3, why is the elf princess trying to rape me??!  This ties into my frustration with many games these days that constantly ego-stroke you.  Seriously, games these days feel like the power fantasy of 12 year olds, wherein you are not only the chosen one but the chosen one who everyone talks about how awesome you are all the time, the best at what you do and are always 'speshul', the one chosen to stab everyone either with your metal sword or with your flesh sword.  I'm not twelve, the average age of gamers is actually quite high now, lets get some decent high quality **** in the stories now.

 

There was more, but I can't remember now.  Basically, I'm one who, despite certain comments in this thread that claims all antimancers are not interested in character interaction, actually finds romance in games often removes interaction and investigation of other kinds of relationship.  Also note folks that while polls may show that more people voted in favor of romance that more people also voted saying that they did want some form of durability in the game too and that didn't seem to impact Obsidian any.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64050-item-durability/page-9

Brilliant post, I don't agree with everything but it was a brilliant post - and now I'm determined to have your hat

Edited July 23, 2013 by CrazyPea

[Lephys]

Brilliant post, I don't agree with everything but it was a brilliant post - and now I'm determined to have your hat

Don't be hattin'!

 

[CrazyPea]

So, how's about either attempting to discuss the good and bad of romance implementation ...

 

A good starting point for a romance done well IMHO is Companion Vilja - a mod for Oblivion and Skyrim. Completely optional, the character didn't become unresponsive if you didn't woo her, any gender could woo her, the romance only developed after a lot of hours of playing (in Oblivion, it was quicker in Skyrim but they haven't finished with the Skyrim version yet) and perhaps best of all there was no sex scene - the entire relationship was extremely chaste.

 

I think what really helped was that Vilja was a very well developed character (with contributions by Sir Terry Pratchett, of Discworld fame), certainly more developed than some professionally made characters.

[Malcador]

 

I wonder how much of this would cease if Obsidian made an official announcement.

Based on the way the internet/game forums tend to work ... not much would cease. The debate would probably just shift direction ... if/whenever the topic came up again. It's not a debate that is confined to a single game, really.

 

Course, I'm a cynical old bat.

 

If they did include it, probably would keep going but arguing over particulars, as if this chatter matters. If they said nope, it'd probably die at that - can't see the pro-romance people lobbying further in vain as they're not pathetic people.

[LadyCrimson]

If they did include it, probably would keep going but arguing over particulars, as if this chatter matters. If they said nope, it'd probably die at that - can't see the pro-romance people lobbying further in vain as they're not pathetic people.

Where did I say that active lobbying to have it in P.E. would continue?

It was just my semi-humorous guess that, if someone who hasn't seen such an announcement (that happens) were to post something, it might run into the general debate over whether romance in video games is good/bad additive/restrictive etc. That's a rather universal topic, not just about P.E.

[KillerClowns]

I'll defintiely say this much... romance or no romance, **** sex scenes. (Terrible pun completely intended.) Close the door and fade to black. I always skipped the sex scenes in the Mass Effect series and the Witcher series because they always felt creepily voyueristic. Maybe it's possible for a video game to have a tasteful sex scene, but it hasn't happened to my knowledge.

 

 

 

I wonder how much of this would cease if Obsidian made an official announcement.

Based on the way the internet/game forums tend to work ... not much would cease. The debate would probably just shift direction ... if/whenever the topic came up again. It's not a debate that is confined to a single game, really.

Course, I'm a cynical old bat.

 

If they did include it, probably would keep going but arguing over particulars, as if this chatter matters. If they said nope, it'd probably die at that - can't see the pro-romance people lobbying further in vain as they're not pathetic people.

 

Nah, but some of us would start showing an interest in these modding tools we were told about. And to any modders already sharpening their quills, I say better to create new companions than hack into the old and risk shattering their characterization.

[KillerClowns]

Oh my, this is still going is it?  Well, let this one fan the flames and throw his hat into the ring (and then grab it right back, you bastards ain't having my hat, it's too good for ya!).

 

I'm one of the people who is not a big fan of romance, and don't believe it is necessary for the game to be good, and often believe they detract from the game as quite often if you want any interaction out of the character you have to bone them, and I'd like to be nice to people and hear their stories without having to shove my **** in them.  I would consider myself an antiromancer I guess if you want labels, but I won't decry it like the anti-durability brigade did without giving it a chance.  I won't get upset if they are in the game, I might even enjoy them, but only if they are done right, which means not teen fan fic that seeks only to indulge the player's fantasies, and not at the expense of other kinds of relationships and interaction.  I am now going to go through the requirements the inclusion of romances would need to have before being condoned by yours truly:

 

First off, the inclusion of romances would only be allowed by myself if all other forms of possible relationship the writers wanted to include are in there and fully fleshed out.  I would actually like to experience some other kinds of interaction, comraderie and siblingdom for instance.  No calibrations please.

 

Second, the romance should not compromise the character in any way.  I remember having a 'discussion' with someone on the Bioware forums (yes I used to frequent them many years ago, I was younger and stupider and did not know better), I told them that I want romances to actually take note of the character and only have them come onto you if you actually acted and had the characteristics that they would be attracted to.  If Miss Buxom would never go out with a weedy mage type because she only likes muscle-bound thickos you should not be able to bed her.  Their response was that they already had to deal with that stuff in real life and didn't want to have to deal with it in a game, that they should get the girl/guy regardless so that they can enjoy it, I'm sorry but if you want that then you are indeed after wish fulfillment indulgence and not after 'depth' of character if you are willing to compromise the character like that. 

 

Third, I should not feel like every man, woman and child is trying to get into my pants.  You just chat with people in DAO or ME2 and people are clambering to get into your pants!  I gave my character a charisma of 3, why is the elf princess trying to rape me??!  This ties into my frustration with many games these days that constantly ego-stroke you.  Seriously, games these days feel like the power fantasy of 12 year olds, wherein you are not only the chosen one but the chosen one who everyone talks about how awesome you are all the time, the best at what you do and are always 'speshul', the one chosen to stab everyone either with your metal sword or with your flesh sword.  I'm not twelve, the average age of gamers is actually quite high now, lets get some decent high quality **** in the stories now.

 

There was more, but I can't remember now.  Basically, I'm one who, despite certain comments in this thread that claims all antimancers are not interested in character interaction, actually finds romance in games often removes interaction and investigation of other kinds of relationship.  Also note folks that while polls may show that more people voted in favor of romance that more people also voted saying that they did want some form of durability in the game too and that didn't seem to impact Obsidian any.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64050-item-durability/page-9

Oh yeah, and this. Any romance option that serves as wish fulfillment and/or emotional pornography (not to be confused with conventional pornography, though there's overlap) is a terrible thing to be burned with fire.

 

Y'know, one of the common meta jokes for RPGs and such is a character that behaves like a PC would. Maybe watching a guy try to get into a girl's pants in the stereotypical PC style would make a nice background gag. "Hey, I searched the city sewers for days to find that ring for you! Why don't you love me?" "...because I'm married, I already paid you the promised bounty, and you haven't washed since."

[Malcador]

 

If they did include it, probably would keep going but arguing over particulars, as if this chatter matters. If they said nope, it'd probably die at that - can't see the pro-romance people lobbying further in vain as they're not pathetic people.

Where did I say that active lobbying to have it in P.E. would continue?

It was just my semi-humorous guess that, if someone who hasn't seen such an announcement (that happens) were to post something, it might run into the general debate over whether romance in video games is good/bad additive/restrictive etc. That's a rather universal topic, not just about P.E.

 

Well if they said no, what would the debate consist of at that point - they'd have to argue for it to be put back in, no?

[LadyCrimson]

There's always ... sequels!  

[Lurky]

A good starting point for a romance done well IMHO is Companion Vilja - a mod for Oblivion and Skyrim. Completely optional, the character didn't become unresponsive if you didn't woo her, any gender could woo her, the romance only developed after a lot of hours of playing (in Oblivion, it was quicker in Skyrim but they haven't finished with the Skyrim version yet) and perhaps best of all there was no sex scene - the entire relationship was extremely chaste.

 

I think what really helped was that Vilja was a very well developed character (with contributions by Sir Terry Pratchett, of Discworld fame), certainly more developed than some professionally made characters.

 

Well, I went and searched for information on this mod and I found this:

 

 

Quite a lot has happened since ver 1 of Companion Vilja was released in december 2009. She has grown really fast!

 

Now ver 4 is here, with several new features.

 

Before I start out on a description of the new version, I wish to express my sincere gratitude to a Great Grandmaster in storytelling, Discworld author Terry Pratchett. He has been travelling Cyrodiil with Vilja in tow since the first version of her was released, and he has not only been so kind and brain-stormed over her with me, but has also written more than 130 of the new chatter- and Thieves Guild-entries in ver 3-4 especially for Vilja. Several of her new features and topics originates from his thoughts on her. Many, many thanks!

 

What's new?

 

# With version 4, we have worked on finetuning and enhancing her abilities, but there is also new content that distinctly differs this version from the previous versions.

# Romance option. The option to romance Vilja has been requested since version 1, and now it is finally here. However, our intention has never been to make her a "romance companion". Therefore, the romance is highly optional - in fact, you have to go into her Options book and tick the romance option before anything will happen.

 

So, your example of a "good starting point for a romance done well" is:

 

1) A character from a mod. Mods have a bunch of crucial departures from the rest of the game: they do not draw from the budget of the game, and they are optional in the purest sense of the word, for example. I do not find this to be a fair comparison. Especially considering that PE will likely not let you disable parts of the character outside of the game, like the mod allows you to do.

 

2) A character that was not originally designed as a romance option. In fact, it took three extra versions to include that at all. You said in an earlier page that romances are not a lot of work to do if they're planned from the beginning, but this example goes completely against that.

 

3) A character that has been developed for over four years. With the help of a professional writer from the beginning. Holy crap. You have read this post, right? You expect a writer to be able to match that in a sixteenth part of that time? You do realize that Obsidian cannot dedicate that many resources to the exclusive development of a companion, right?

 

I just... seriously, is that the best example you have? A mod? Because if mods already have that quality, why do you care if PE has romances or not? Modders will make romances regardless of game content, and considering your example, they'll do a better job anyway!

Edited July 24, 2013 by Lurky

[Lephys]

^

 

1) Because things from mods are impossible to implement into a game during development. It isn't simple circumstance of the game already being complete that makes them a "mod"ification in the first place.

 

2) Doesn't matter how intentional it was, or how many versions it took. An example is an example.

 

3) Duke Nukem Forever took 10 years of development, and it sucked. Doesn't mean it takes 10 years just to get to the level of quality Duke Nukem Forever got to. Obviously other games that have come out in under 2 years and have been 7,000 times better than it prove that. Again, the point wasn't the specifics behind the development of that mod, or even anything having to do with the fact it was a mod. The point was merely that the results of that mod possess what Crazypea thought was a good start for romance implementation. Way to flood the village when the fire's in the church tower.

 

"Hmm, I saw a house that was made out of concrete and shaped like a dome. I think that design would make a good hurricane-proof house." "ZOMG! Do you know how many renovations to that house they did BEFORE it was shaped like that and made from concrete? Not to mention that they just think it looks nice, and it isn't intended to withstand fierce weather. Plus, it's just a MOD! They didn't even originally build that house in that shape, or out of concrete! PLUS, they meticulously hand-crafted that house for 17 years before they finally finished it! What does all of this mean? That obviously, the resulting design of that house is in no way a good idea for hurricane-proof housing, u_u"

 

That's what you sound like, arbitrarily bashing Crazypea's example.

[Lurky]

Er... what?

 

1) Of course they are possible to implement, but doing so will have an impact on the rest of the game being developed. A mod won't.

 

2) Previously, she had argued in favor of including romance in the planning stage of the character writing. Now she provides an example of a well done romanceable character, and this good example did not follow this guideline at all. You don't find this to be contradictory in the very least? Why mention the guideline if it's irrelevant?

 

3) I am well aware that her point wasn't the specifics of the development of the mod, but since it was put as an example to follow, it's still a good idea to examine it. Because, you know, Obsidian would have to develop, too. My point is that the mod had many more resources to spend, which, believe it or not, does matter.

 

I mean, following your example, it's like showing an example of a hurricane-proof house built with high quality concrete and carefully constructed during years with no pressure, when all I have to build something similar is a quickly put together mixture of sand and gravel and little time because hurricane season is coming and I have other preparations to do. I do not think that pointing out the differences between the construction of the two is inappropiate.

 

Bah. It's late. Why am I still in this thread when I should be sleeping.

[Malcador]

There's always ... sequels!  

Project Eternal Bliss ?

 

Horrifying!

[CrazyPea]

 

 

A good starting point for a romance done well IMHO is Companion Vilja - a mod for Oblivion and Skyrim. Completely optional, the character didn't become unresponsive if you didn't woo her, any gender could woo her, the romance only developed after a lot of hours of playing (in Oblivion, it was quicker in Skyrim but they haven't finished with the Skyrim version yet) and perhaps best of all there was no sex scene - the entire relationship was extremely chaste.

 

I think what really helped was that Vilja was a very well developed character (with contributions by Sir Terry Pratchett, of Discworld fame), certainly more developed than some professionally made characters.

 

Well, I went and searched for information on this mod and I found this:

 

 

Quite a lot has happened since ver 1 of Companion Vilja was released in december 2009. She has grown really fast!

 

Now ver 4 is here, with several new features.

 

Before I start out on a description of the new version, I wish to express my sincere gratitude to a Great Grandmaster in storytelling, Discworld author Terry Pratchett. He has been travelling Cyrodiil with Vilja in tow since the first version of her was released, and he has not only been so kind and brain-stormed over her with me, but has also written more than 130 of the new chatter- and Thieves Guild-entries in ver 3-4 especially for Vilja. Several of her new features and topics originates from his thoughts on her. Many, many thanks!

 

What's new?

 

# With version 4, we have worked on finetuning and enhancing her abilities, but there is also new content that distinctly differs this version from the previous versions.

# Romance option. The option to romance Vilja has been requested since version 1, and now it is finally here. However, our intention has never been to make her a "romance companion". Therefore, the romance is highly optional - in fact, you have to go into her Options book and tick the romance option before anything will happen.

 

So, your example of a "good starting point for a romance done well" is:

 

1) A character from a mod. Mods have a bunch of crucial departures from the rest of the game: they do not draw from the budget of the game, and they are optional in the purest sense of the word, for example. I do not find this to be a fair comparison. Especially considering that PE will likely not let you disable parts of the character outside of the game, like the mod allows you to do.

 

2) A character that was not originally designed as a romance option. In fact, it took three extra versions to include that at all. You said in an earlier page that romances are not a lot of work to do if they're planned from the beginning, but this example goes completely against that.

 

3) A character that has been developed for over four years. With the help of a professional writer from the beginning. Holy crap. You have read this post, right? You expect a writer to be able to match that in a sixteenth part of that time? You do realize that Obsidian cannot dedicate that many resources to the exclusive development of a companion, right?

 

I just... seriously, is that the best example you have? A mod? Because if mods already have that quality, why do you care if PE has romances or not? Modders will make romances regardless of game content, and considering your example, they'll do a better job anyway!

 

1. I was showing what I believe is a good example of a well written romance.

 

2. You're right it didn't originally include a romance - but that's part of the point wanted to make, whole levels of depth have been added to the character since the romance was added -  the romance element hasn't detracted from the character at all, it  has enhanced the entire project. It also shows that Romance can be added later - this doesn't invalidate my earlier point because IT IS easier (and much LESS work)  to incorporate the romance in the beginning. I never said it couldn't be added later, just that you are making your life harder for yourself by doing so.

 

3. The mod itself has been in development for 4 years not the romance aspect of it. These people are not professionals, they have day jobs/lives/loves etc. And they didn't have help of a professional writer from the beginning - Mr Pratchett  played the mod from version 1, his advice and pointers started from Version 2 onwards.  It's also taken four years because the modders chose to continue developing it, taking it from one game to another.  I don't expect Obsidian match that at all (well ... perhaps if some of the NPCs make it into the sequels, but that's a different kettle of fish); I wanted to show it can be done and to see if there are aspects that could be applied to other romances. I also wanted to see if other people deemed it a good romance and if not, why not? You know, promoting a discussion about romances rather than the attacking/defending that is the current status quo in this topic.

 

4. Seriously? A Mod? Yes. - Does matter if amateurs (with help) wrote the mod? Good is good, no matter who writes it. Is it the best I can do? I wasn't really putting it out there as some sort of challenge. Foolishly, I thought the point was to show that romances can be well written. Why do I care about P:E if mods are a that level quality? Because all mods unfortunately are not at that level of quality. Also, although Oblivion and Skyrim can be fun games, they are very shallow; I want something with a little more depth and better writing, something which Obsidian is famous for.

 

5. Maybe modders will make romances, maybe they will be better than any 'Official' one, maybe they won't. Besides, I don't about you, but I love Obsidians writing and I would really like to see their take on it - especially Mr. Avellones ideas for a doomed romance.

Edited July 24, 2013 by CrazyPea

[BruceVC]

The forum drama is idiotic, you fool, was referring to Monte and CrazyPea being snippy at each other.

 

You can't call me a fool, that's against the Forum rules !!! Moderators, oh Moderaaaaaaaaators. Someone needs a warning !!

I'm just joking Malc, you know I love you right ?      

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Bah. It's late. Why am I still in this thread when I should be sleeping.

Perhaps you're a glutton for punishment.

 

Anywho, I hope PE makes a ****load of money so that NPCs in the sequel can have reactive dialogue that changes depending on what type of relationship they have with the PC or other NPCs. After all, people do react towards others differently depending who they are, and seeing NPCs do that in a well executed manner would be very nice.

[alanschu]

Funny thing is despite all these discussions and evidence that the majority of people want some form of Romance\Sex I still see some of the more regular members opposed to the concept

 

 

I'm not a huge fan of romances because, in general, I don't find them very well done nor something I find particularly interesting.

 

I won't deny that many people really, really enjoy them, however.

[BruceVC]

 

Funny thing is despite all these discussions and evidence that the majority of people want some form of Romance\Sex I still see some of the more regular members opposed to the concept

 

 

I'm not a huge fan of romances because, in general, I don't find them very well done nor something I find particularly interesting.

 

I won't deny that many people really, really enjoy them, however.

 

 

I hear you and even if you have personal preference that Romance is not your cup of tea I would hope that people can see what you are saying. By including Romance you will appeal to a huge group of people that potentially may not be as interested in PE if the game has no Romance. This is a good thing as this means increased revenue and general support for the PE franchise going forward. It stupefies me that people who are really committed to the success of PE can't see this as good thing

[GhostofAnakin]

I don't mind if romance is a part of the game, just as long as it's an optional part.  And one that doesn't require you to go through with in order to "max out" your abilities somehow.

 

If romance is going to be involved, I'd actually like to see there potentially be negative benefits as well.  For example, maybe at some point you have to choose between saving said loved one and allowing the enemy to get away, or finishing off the enemy at the potential cost of your loved one's life.

 

As for having children, no thank you.

[Bos_hybrid]

I won't deny that many people really, really enjoy them, however.

 

The majority of gamers couldn't care less. That said it is a very, very popular feature on BSN.

 

By including Romance you will appeal to a huge group of people that potentially may not be as interested in PE if the game has no Romance.

 

By adding MP P:E would attract a group 10 times the size that romances could pull in. Should they add that instead.

 

I still don't believe that romances would make any difference in sales. FO:NV no romance, outsold any bioware game.

[alanschu]

 

 

I don't mind if romance is a part of the game, just as long as it's an optional part.  And one that doesn't require you to go through with in order to "max out" your abilities somehow.

 

As an armchair designer, I actually don't agree with this.  If you get some level of consequence for doing that content, I don't think that that's a bad thing at all.  Though I tend to frown heavily upon power gaming for the sake of power gaming.  If it makes sense to get a buff (or penalty), then give one.

 

If you want to avoid content, I think it's up to the player to avoid said content from an RP perspective.  If the content in question denies some level of reward, oh well.

 

 

 

The majority of gamers couldn't care less. That said it is a very, very popular feature on BSN.

 

It's a very popular feature with many people that are fans of RPGs, particularly ones like Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 2.  The reaction to romances was probably the biggest surprise of BG2.  They were ridiculously well received.

 

Despite not being a fan of them personally, I disagree with the implication that their popularity is constrained to something like the BioWare Social Network (hence why the topic continually gets brought up in pretty much every RPG developer's forum).

 

 

 

 

By adding MP P:E would attract a group 10 times the size that romances could pull in. Should they add that instead.

 

I still don't believe that romances would make any difference in sales. FO:NV no romance, outsold any bioware game.

 

I doubt that MP for Project Eternity would see the benefits that you are putting forth, unless they changed the scope of the game.  FO:NV, however, is also a part of a franchise by which the predecessor sold mountains of copies.  I think you may have confounding circumstances with your correlation.

 

I can't say for certain whether or not romances would or would not make any difference in sales.  I suspect, for a great many, that they may be getting a game akin to an Infinity Engine game likely motivates a lot because they are starved for that type of a game.  But I would say, for a game like this, I would expect romances to resonate more strongly than multiplayer.

[BruceVC]

 

I don't mind if romance is a part of the game, just as long as it's an optional part.  And one that doesn't require you to go through with in order to "max out" your abilities somehow.

 

As an armchair designer, I actually don't agree with this.  If you get some level of consequence for doing that content, I don't think that that's a bad thing at all.  Though I tend to frown heavily upon power gaming for the sake of power gaming.  If it makes sense to get a buff (or penalty), then give one.

 

If you want to avoid content, I think it's up to the player to avoid said content from an RP perspective.  If the content in question denies some level of reward, oh well.

 

 

 

The majority of gamers couldn't care less. That said it is a very, very popular feature on BSN.

 

It's a very popular feature with many people that are fans of RPGs, particularly ones like Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 2.  The reaction to romances was probably the biggest surprise of BG2.  They were ridiculously well received.

 

Despite not being a fan of them personally, I disagree with the implication that their popularity is constrained to something like the BioWare Social Network (hence why the topic continually gets brought up in pretty much every RPG developer's forum).

 

 

 

 

By adding MP P:E would attract a group 10 times the size that romances could pull in. Should they add that instead.

 

I still don't believe that romances would make any difference in sales. FO:NV no romance, outsold any bioware game.

 

I doubt that MP for Project Eternity would see the benefits that you are putting forth, unless they changed the scope of the game.  FO:NV, however, is also a part of a franchise by which the predecessor sold mountains of copies.  I think you may have confounding circumstances with your correlation.

 

I can't say for certain whether or not romances would or would not make any difference in sales.  I suspect, for a great many, that they may be getting a game akin to an Infinity Engine game likely motivates a lot because they are starved for that type of a game.  But I would say, for a game like this, I would expect romances to resonate more strongly than multiplayer.

 

 

Very well said, I have to be honest I appreciate it when someone of your credibility and insight weighs on in on a topic as you make a lot of sense. I particularly like it when you make the same point I am making in your own words and from your own perspective

 

I have said this many times before and I'll say it again.  People must stop seeing BSN as the great enemy and assume that any topic or issue that is important there automatically means it irrelevant to PE and its future or rather increasing the PE fan base

 

I have a simple objective or PE and Obsidian. I want PE to have the support of the various Bioware games like DA and ME and of course the BSN. I want thousands of people to logon to these forums and discuss the nuances of the game and give there opinions. I want these same people to financially support Obsidian like they do in with Bioware. I know people on these forums think that some of the discussions and debates on BSN are "weird" and "depraved". But if a group of people want to discuss how the sweat of a Qunari would taste then let them, you don't need to comment. Create a debate that you feel is applicable. I know from the Off Topic section on these forums that there are some topics I think are silly or I don't care about and you know what that's okay. I don't give my opinion on these but I respect the right of people to debate these topics

 

In summary Romance is a popular RPG choice for many gamers and lets try to stop seeing how Bioware includes Romance as a bad thing for Obsidian. Because the more important point should be that Romance should be seen as another mechanism to increase support for PE. Of course its not the most important or only thing but it is relevant

 

[Bos_hybrid]

 

The majority of gamers couldn't care less. That said it is a very, very popular feature on BSN.

 

It's a very popular feature with many people that are fans of RPGs, particularly ones like Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 2.  The reaction to romances was probably the biggest surprise of BG2.  They were ridiculously well received.

 

Despite not being a fan of them personally, I disagree with the implication that their popularity is constrained to something like the BioWare Social Network (hence why the topic continually gets brought up in pretty much every RPG developer's forum).

 

 

Most of the posters that want romances on here are from BSN, not all but most. Many people frequent numerous forums(I peruse BSN from time to time). Having said that, I do think a lot like romances, they just don't need it like (some of)those on BSN and here. Most people would consider it fluff. Not a requirement, and certainly not a make or break feature. And wouldn't chose other features to be cut in it's place. The people that would base a purchase on whether or not romances are included is small.

 

 

 

 

 

 

By adding MP P:E would attract a group 10 times the size that romances could pull in. Should they add that instead.

 

I still don't believe that romances would make any difference in sales. FO:NV no romance, outsold any bioware game.

 

 

 

 

 

I doubt that MP for Project Eternity would see the benefits that you are putting forth, unless they changed the scope of the game.

 

 

It's not like the old infinty engine games didn't have MP, they did. I don't think P:E will be smaller than the original BG.(Would just like to say I'm even more opposed to MP than romances in PE.)

 

You don't agree that more gamers would enjoy MP than romance? I would think differently in the current climate of gaming. (Everything has to have MP)

 

FO:NV, however, is also a part of a franchise by which the predecessor sold mountains of copies.  I think you may have confounding circumstances with your correlation.

 

Yes it's a fact that Bethesda's FO 3 helped propel NV forward.

 

My point was despite bioware's efforts on the romance front, you still aren't outselling the other RPG's without that feature. It can't be the big selling feature if other games without it do better. Romances are a niche feature in a niche genre. Not a customer puller. Not yet anyway.

 

I can't say for certain whether or not romances would or would not make any difference in sales.  I suspect, for a great many, that they may be getting a game akin to an Infinity Engine game likely motivates a lot because they are starved for that type of a game.  But I would say, for a game like this, I would expect romances to resonate more strongly than multiplayer.

 

More infinity engine games had MP than romances. Only BG2 had romances, while both BG and IWD had MP. While I won't argue that romances aren't a more remembered feature for some. Their was a lot that enjoyed the co-op.

 

I have a simple objective or PE and Obsidian. I want PE to have the support of the various Bioware games like DA and ME and of course the BSN.

 

I just don't believe romances are the key to this. I would seriously doubt you would see a massive sales drop off in a bioware game where romance wasn't included.

 

All your are doing is trying to connect sales to romance based on your desire to see romance in the game.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Bos_hybrid