Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part IV).

[Merlkir]

Actually. DId some people ever choose to fight in lighter armor if heavier was available?

Berserkers yeah maybe.

 

No denying the usefulness of light cavalry in scouting and harassing or stuff like that,

but wasn't it rather the case you have light cavalry so better make use of it.

 

Did some army decide that nah, no we'll rather have light infantry than heavy.

 

I get not going to a hunting trip in heavy plate,

but I don't get going into battle in furs if you have the plate as well..

 

As always with armour or swords, it's not a simple yes/no matter. In my opinion, unavailability of gear was most often the reason, although some definitely chose to wear less or lighter armour for various other reasons. 

 

It really depends on the type of fighting you do. If we're talking just field battles, armour is the best option almost all the time. Guerilla warfare requires you to be mobile, to spend little time putting armour on and off, it often requires stealth and metal armour simply does make a lot of noise.

 

It's a combination of various aspects of the situation you find yourself in - logistics, comfort, availability of gear and also custom and tradition.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Merlkir

[JFSOCC]

I'd like to see more light stuff, armour you could hide, weapons you could sneak into a party.

You know, for the roguish types like my characters. decent protection which does not detract from either stealth or gives you away socially.

[ViolentManatee]

Actually. DId some people ever choose to fight in lighter armor if heavier was available?

Berserkers yeah maybe.

 

No denying the usefulness of light cavalry in scouting and harassing or stuff like that,

but wasn't it rather the case you have light cavalry so better make use of it.

 

Did some army decide that nah, no we'll rather have light infantry than heavy.

 

I get not going to a hunting trip in heavy plate,

but I don't get going into battle in furs if you have the plate as well..

 

I wouldn't think of it as a question of usefulness but more like a question of necessity. Take militia recruits for example, most of them could barely carry weapons, heavy as they were, slapping  plate armor on them would end up being counterproductive there - takes a long time to even learn how to move in plate armor. Other point would be, only very certain group of people could actually afford it... 

 

So on one hand, I do understand what you mean and I have to agree in a way - in a perfect world, everybody would be running ( well, running might be a strong word ) around in full plate, however, I'm unsure how realistic would that be

[Lephys]

@ Merlkir and Jarmo:

 

Just to be clear, this face ( ) means joke/sarcasm, and/or "the above is my being silly."

 

Maybe you knew that, and I missed it. I just wanted to make sure.

[J.E. Sawyer]

A lot of soldiers wore lighter armor for a variety of reasons, some having to do with practical matters like cost or maintenance, but sometimes arguably due to the circumstances of battle.  Linen padded jacks were actually surprisingly effective against arrows (more than mail, in some cases).

 

We have most of our base armor types in the game now (still working on leather and brigandine).  We may revise things a bit in the future, but I think most of you will really like where we're going with the designs.  They are pretty firmly based in historical references (though they aren't derived from historical suits 1:1), they're distinctive from each other, they allow for the use of player-customized colors, and they are well-grounded.  This last point is important to me because it allows us to "grow" the style of armor more over time.  If armor starts out crazy or elaborate, things can get super-sized really quickly.  Ours are practical but cool-looking (IMO) and it's very easy to tell the male and female characters from each other.  Hopefully we can show you some more of it soon.

 

The character artists have also been developing the weapons more.  Like weapons in the IE games and older AD&D artwork, the weapons are relatively realistic in their size and proportion (with slight exaggeration for things like warhammer heads that might not read well at the small character size).  We just got in a pollaxe and two-handed morning star, both of which look like bad news (in a good way).  As with the armor, I think you'll like the base options and where we can "escalate" into fancier weapons over the course of the game.

 

 

Jössas na, was macht'n soa Bergdeutscha da?   

 

 

Heutzutage, sprechen nur alte Leute Bairisch, ja?

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

Like weapons in the IE games and older AD&D artwork, the weapons are relatively realistic in their size and proportion (with slight exaggeration for things like warhammer heads that might not read well at the small character size)

 

Don't sweat it. IMO smaller, demi-human characters with big weapons simply look kick-ass.

[Bill Gates' Son]

two-handed morning star

 

Nice. I REALLY hope that includes 2 handed flails like the heavy flails in NWN.

[Lephys]

 

Like weapons in the IE games and older AD&D artwork, the weapons are relatively realistic in their size and proportion (with slight exaggeration for things like warhammer heads that might not read well at the small character size)

 

Don't sweat it. IMO smaller, demi-human characters with big weapons simply look kick-ass.

 

I believe that by "small character size," he meant the smallness of characters (and the weapons they're wielding), in general, due to the player's viewing distance.

 

In other words, they made sure that, seeing your characters "in the distance" as you'll be doing, you can say "Ahh, looks like a guy with a warhammer" and not "Ehh... there's a person... and I think they're carrying some sort of stick-like weapon?"

 

He said a similar thing about rapiers and stilettos and such. If they just made them perfectly realistically proportionate to the characters, at the given view distance, then the weapon blades, themselves, would show up as like... a quarter of a pixel. Best case scenario, you'd think your character was fighting with well-starched piano wire.

 

 

 

two-handed morning star

 

Nice. I REALLY hope that includes 2 handed flails like the heavy flails in NWN.

 

I immediately thought of a large, double-headed flail with metal, spiked "hands" for heads, rather than typical flail heads, so that your opponents would get slapped by deadly palms as you flail them.

 

... Does this make me strange?

Edited July 31, 2013 by Lephys

[Scottfree6000]

In a different thread someone mentioned daggers being less effective against plate armour. Thus, behold:

 

 

 

the infamous Hodendolch (testicles dagger)

 

 

it would be a shame to get stab by one of these johnson liking dagger.

[Sensuki]

We have most of our base armor types in the game now (still working on leather and brigandine).  We may revise things a bit in the future, but I think most of you will really like where we're going with the designs.  They are pretty firmly based in historical references (though they aren't derived from historical suits 1:1), they're distinctive from each other, they allow for the use of player-customized colors, and they are well-grounded.  This last point is important to me because it allows us to "grow" the style of armor more over time.  If armor starts out crazy or elaborate, things can get super-sized really quickly.  Ours are practical but cool-looking (IMO) and it's very easy to tell the male and female characters from each other.  Hopefully we can show you some more of it soon.

 

We just got in a pollaxe and two-handed morning star, both of which look like bad news (in a good way).  As with the armor, I think you'll like the base options and where we can "escalate" into fancier weapons over the course of the game.

 

Be nice to have some incentive to actually use some different weapons other than a sword for a change. Can't wait to smash some ribcages with a pollaxe.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Sensuki

[Merlkir]

That was a pleasant read, sure was.

 

Especially great is the point about having a range of "mundane to epic" and starting "plain" so that the epic designs look suitably powerful in comparison. Games these days often forget about this. (MMOs, I'm looking at you! I think it's an attempt to give players something badass to wear from level 1, but it ends up being underwhelming and also a difficult job for the concept artists, because they need to invent insane levels of "epic-er" gear for the higher levels)

[Karranthain]

We may revise things a bit in the future, but I think most of you will really like where we're going with the designs.  They are pretty firmly based in historical references (though they aren't derived from historical suits 1:1), they're distinctive from each other, they allow for the use of player-customized colors, and they are well-grounded. 

 

And this, I think, is the ideal approach (and one that has been advocated by many people posting in this topic). I can't tell you how happy I am that you went this route.

[Jarmo]

A lot of soldiers wore lighter armor for a variety of reasons, some having to do with practical matters like cost or maintenance, but sometimes arguably due to the circumstances of battle.  Linen padded jacks were actually surprisingly effective against arrows (more than mail, in some cases).

 

We have most of our base armor types in the game now (still working on leather and brigandine).  We may revise things a bit in the future, but I think most of you will really like where we're going with the designs.   

 

 

@ Merlkir and Jarmo:

 

Just to be clear, this face ( ) means joke/sarcasm, and/or "the above is my being silly."

 

Maybe you knew that, and I missed it. I just wanted to make sure.

 

Yea. I think "the regulars" in this thread were sold on the first video with characters. I know I was.

Making this thread less of a plea for the game and more about general rambling of armor and weapons.

 

And yea, I saw the wink but went off on a tangent anyway as I'm like to do.

 

What I mean, is if you're equipping a border guard to patrol the countryside, it's pretty natural you dont make them heavy knights but rather light horsemen.

More so if the world doesn't have horses and everybody has to walk. Easy to see the appeal of wearing jacks instead of a 20kg hauberk.

And if there is a war or battle, you fight in the same gear you have and are familiar with. This might well apply to adventurers as well.

 

But if you know there's a battle coming up and the issue is not cost.

Any medieval lords for example, that could afford what they wanted and did fight in wars, not just stand around in the back.

Any notion anywhere that they'd go... hmmm.. the plate would hinder my mobility so I'll go light and agile....

 

As a further tangent. I know (stories of) some modern US troops would skip wearing bulletproof vests even if firefight is likely, if the weather was hot enough.

Rather not go into fight sweating like a pig and dehydrated, even if that means you better not get in the way of bullets.

 

... now I actually recall seeing images of saracen leaders (who did fight) but didn't wear the heaviest armor.

(Or did they fight? I think Saladin didn't for example, not in his old days anyway)

[Monte Carlo]

OOOooooh Oby's writing something! It will be a picture of superior Russian armour! Betchya twenty groats!

[obyknven]

Kangar warrior from Central Asia (1-2 centuries AD)

 

 

Kangar warrior's after Westward migration ( X century AD ), knowing as Pechenegs in Europe.

 

 

 

Red Hunn horseman ( called as 'Avars' in Europe, VI - IX centuries AD)

 

 

Red Croatian horseman (same time)

 

 

Warriors of Severians ( Eastern Slav Tribe, IX century AD )

 

 

Warriors of Kievan Rus.

 

 

 

 

 

Moravian Slav from Smolensk vs Mongolian warrior

[Monte Carlo]

Dammit! Scared him off. Curse that new post pop-up feature.

[Lephys]

Especially great is the point about having a range of "mundane to epic" and starting "plain" so that the epic designs look suitably powerful in comparison. Games these days often forget about this. (MMOs, I'm looking at you! I think it's an attempt to give players something badass to wear from level 1, but it ends up being underwhelming and also a difficult job for the concept artists, because they need to invent insane levels of "epic-er" gear for the higher levels)

Seconded. Not only that, with MMOs, but they also sometimes boost the meaning of "plain" to unimaginable heights (if they don't just start you with "epic" from the get-go).

 

"Level 1 Warrior? Oh, you're wearing an aluminum foil frock, made out of a single texture! 8D!"

 

I dunno... maybe it's just because all my MMO experience is as a Mage? So it kinda goes "Lvl 1 -- potato sack; Level 10 -- Peasant-who-can-at-least-afford-to-eat clothing; Level 20 -- Vow-of-poverty Monk robe; Level 30 -- Silk scraps stitched together all willy-nilly, with some sort of wrestling championship belt; Level 40 -- INTERDIMENSIONAL SPACE SORCERER!!!"

 

The weapons go the same way: "Lvl 1 -- twig; Lvl 10 -- nicely whittled, less-bent twig; Lvl 20 -- muddly walking stick; Lvl 30 -- clean walking stick with a chunk of dirty quartz super-glued to the end; Lvl 40 -- LEGENDARY STAFF OF PHASE TRANSDUCTANCE!"

 

Of course, those games also now act like the first half of the level range is just a tutorial, heh.

 

But, yeah, it's nice to know (from screenies and whatnot) that Obsidian knows that simple does not mean bland.

[obyknven]

Romans

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lephys]

And yea, I saw the wink but went off on a tangent anyway as I'm like to do.

No worries in the least. I'm an advocate of tangents, . 'Twas a quality tangent. I merely wanted to make certain the two of you hadn't taken my little post seriously. It was basically a sarcastic way of saying "It's really nice to see some light-armor designs/styles." ^_^

[obyknven]

Medieval Russian warrior in winter outfit, XIII century

 

Moscow principiate, XVII century

 

 

Medieval guy

Fantasy Macedonian Orthodox guy

 

Moar fantasy

[obyknven]

Tyrkic warrior VI century

 

 Kirghiz warrior's IX - X centuries

 

 

 

 

Death of Uyghur Khagan ( Ordu Baliq Battle )

 

Zunghar warriors XVII century

 

Kirghiz warrior's XVII century

 

 

 

Mongolian warriors XVII century

 

 

Manchu warriors XVII centuries

 

 

[Karranthain]

Two very interesting pieces that I'd like to share:

 

 

[Merlkir]

The equipment is standard medieval stuff, but the art is awesome. I've done a piece for the Medieval Warfare Magazine and felt pretty good about myself. Then I saw what this guy does for them. Derp. ;P

[Agremont]

Beautiful pieces. What is the artist's name?

[Walsingham]

Credit where it's due. That art's a good find.