Solving The Rest Problem: Limited resting, or respawning enemies?

[Karkarov]

 

 

What's the problem? If your mage finds some utility spells he can put them in his spell grimoire and memorize them, but he might need to switch them out for combat spells for tougher battles.

 

Granted, you will gain some spells on level up. I suppose you're referring to a situation where a mage could choose non-combat spells exclusively on level-up, or something like that. I don't know, maybe they won't let you do that. Or maybe it won't matter because you'll find enough combat spells in the game world to compensate.

 

The point is magic is not clearly a combat or a non-combat skill.  If it's similar to AD&D, it will be mostly, but not entirely, combat, but some will be non-combat related.  Meaning they either need to shave off the non-combat spells as skills, or spellcasters really do have less combat utility than non-spellcasters.  

 

I don't think that is the case.  Many classes are likely to have out of combat utility abilities.  I imagine since the whole game is based on SOUL POWAH and not on spells and such there will be no memorization per se.  Likely each "SOUL POWAH" for casters will just be categorized based on how powerful it is and for each different catagory of power you just have a limited number of uses per time frame.  However inside that given time frame you have access to all the powers you actually know without needing to specifically prepare them.

 

At least that's how I would do it for PE but who knows.  I just know it isn't D&D so that system for spells likely won't apply.

[Gfted1]

Sawyer commented on casters in another thread:

 

Yes, spellcasters have a mix of unlimited (at-will, to use a 4E term), per-encounter, and per-rest abilities. Their most powerful spells are always their per-rest abilities, with lower-level spells eventually flipping over to per-encounter as they advance.

 

We have no "mana" or equivalent universal resources, though ciphers do have a Focus resource and monks have Wounds.

[Infinitron]

 

At least that's how I would do it for PE but who knows.  I just know it isn't D&D so that system for spells likely won't apply.

 

 

No, in PE, wizards need to memorize (or "prepare" or whatever you want to call it) their "per-rest" spells by loading them up in a grimoire. It works much like Vancian magic.

 

http://eternity.gamepedia.com/Wizard

Edited June 12, 2013 by Infinitron

[eschaton]

The point is magic is not clearly a combat or a non-combat skill.  If it's similar to AD&D, it will be mostly, but not entirely, combat, but some will be non-combat related.  Meaning they either need to shave off the non-combat spells as skills, or spellcasters really do have less combat utility than non-spellcasters.  

 

Again, I'm not sure how that follows. Do you remember how AD&D wizards worked? Spells weren't a skill, stat or feat. They weren't a character attribute that you developed through level-ups. They were tangible things you found in the world, scribed into your spellbook, and memorized at will.

 

If you wanted to be at maximum combat readiness, you'd memorize lots of combat spells. And there were plenty of them to be found.

 

Surely you're not claiming that just because non-combat spells exist, that somehow makes wizards less combat-proficient than other classes???

 

In any case, Project Eternity wizards will have other offensive capabilities besides spells.

 

To simplify my point:  We know that every class gets both combat and non-combat skill points, which are different pools.  We don't know the amounts are equal for every class.  Many assume they are, however, so let's also consider that.  How do spells fit in?  

 

Presuming you have spells which are non-combat oriented, but you use "combat skill points" to gain additional spells, you can effectively make a better non-combat build with a caster than anyone else.  

 

I have to think, given what we know about magic, there isn't a different "pacifist grimoire" which specializes in spells used to influence people's minds, identify, find traps, unlock doors, fetch objects from far away, communicate over long distances, etc.  

[Infinitron]

To simplify my point:  We know that every class gets both combat and non-combat skill points, which are different pools.  We don't know the amounts are equal for every class.  Many assume they are, however, so let's also consider that.  How do spells fit in?  

 

Presuming you have spells which are non-combat oriented, but you use "combat skill points" to gain additional spells, you can effectively make a better non-combat build with a caster than anyone else.  

 

I have to think, given what we know about magic, there isn't a different "pacifist grimoire" which specializes in spells used to influence people's minds, identify, find traps, unlock doors, fetch objects from far away, communicate over long distances, etc.  

 

 

I think you've misunderstood how magic in this game will work. You won't use skill points to gain spells, and you find spells in the world individually, not just in grimoires. The grimoires can then be customized with whatever spells you want to put in them.

 

Want to use your combat spells? Load up your grimoires with combat spells and rest. Want to use non-combat spells? Load up your grimoires with non-combat spells and rest.

 

In any case, just because the wizard might have access to non-combat spells doesn't mean the other class' non-combat skills will be useless. This is about usefulness of all classes, not perfect balance between classes.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Infinitron

[Infinitron]

Perhaps this will make things more clear (the first paragraph): http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=12#post416190543

 

rope kid is J.E. Sawyer.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Infinitron

[Amentep]

Assuming the game does end up supporting unlimited resting in rest areas, an alternative solution would be to respawn monsters in the dungeon every time the player rests. That would mean the player would have to think twice before clicking that Rest button, because clearing the dungeon again could turn out to be a big headache - not to mention he might need to rest again after doing it!

 

Remember, we want resting to have consequences, but the solution has to be relatively cheap to implement, because in the end, this game is a story-driven RPG, not "Dungeon Simulator 2014". So that means complex scripted things like "the goblins fortify the dungeon and beef up their patrols while you rest" aren't a viable all-purpose solution.

 

Thoughts?

I don't mind random encounters, I'm not sure I'd think respawning enemies (just because of resting, as opposed to "replenished ecology" kind of respawns after significant layers of time".

 

Now, ultimately as its a game I only care that their solution is balanced for the game and not cumbersome.

 

But I do wonder if the better solution would be to make repeated rest some sort of law of diminishing returns (so many rest periods in so much time causes the effects to minimize, add a "over-rested" status, exponentially increase likelihood of encounters while resting with each rest, etc) than to limit rest areas.

[Gfted1]

Huh, so rogues will do the most dps.

[Midas Touch]

All I can say is that if there aren't hard restrictions on resting in certain places, make sensible consequences. If you are fighting monsters, brigands, or whatever through the ruins of a castle, and you stop to rest in the middle of some feast hall or throne room, the unfriendlies might find you while you rest (assuming it makes sense for more of them to be in the area, as in, you haven't cleared the place out yet). If you find some store room in a far flung wing of the place, and shut the door behind you, then you might be able to rest unnoticed. Likewise, if there's a timed quest, and you rest every 3rd room, you're going to spend DAYS (in game) just to clear the place and might not achieve the objective in time. 

 

Timed quests and ambushes/encounters on rests are something I'm all for, and perhaps rest restrictions to boot. Seriously, there are probably going to be plenty of places where you click the rest button and your NPC companions could sensibly say "You're nuts! We can't stop here! It's far too dangerous!".

[Nonek]

Dear Lord I hope not, a two handed sword should do significantly more damage than a rogues dagger, that's just painfully obvious. If my huge Oomama's being out dps'd by an Orlan with knitting needles i'll be rather upset.

[Prometheus]

 

...

 

Want to use your combat spells? Load up your grimoires with combat spells and rest. Want to use non-combat spells? Load up your grimoires with non-combat spells and rest.

I think you will have more than one grimoire, so you don't need to rest to get non combat spells. You can just change your grimoire.

[Infinitron]

Dear Lord I hope not, a two handed sword should do significantly more damage than a rogues dagger, that's just painfully obvious. If my huge Oomama's being out dps'd by an Orlan with knitting needles i'll be rather upset.

 

It probably will - unless you use the dagger with one of the rogue's backstab special abilities.

 

I'm guessing that the PE Rogue will be somewhere between the MMO DPS Rogue and the traditional D&D Rogue. You can do lots of damage, but it won't be as easy to pull off without getting your ass kicked.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Infinitron

[Nonek]

Hopefully you're right Infinitron, and it's limited to attempted assassinations.

[Gfted1]

Ive got an idea for an uber character. Start with a rogue, choose whichever race offers rogue bonuses, and pump stealth and diplomacy every opportunity. At default, you will be able to hide and kill better than any other class and the diplomacy will carry you for all other occasions. Ive never had a rogue as my main either so this will kill two birds with one stone for me, open up classes Ive never played while still catering to the murder machine I like my toons to become.

[SunBroSolaire]

I agree that respawning seems like an "inelegant" solution, and there's something satisfying about knowing you've cleared a dungeon forever. It does get the job done, though.

End respawning after the boss is defeated. 

 

Take for example the recent mediocre RP game that is fun to play for first half an hour or so, Expeditions conquistador. The game allows you to rest anywhere, but with the possibility that rations run out. That is good design, right there.

That game is not very well designed; see the fact that it isn't fun after the first hour. They completely failed to balance the resource management, so it is either trivially easy or impossible depending on luck. PE isn't a survival sim, those kinds of mechanics don't have any place in an IE successor. Besides, resting doesn't need to be a resource if it does not provide the player with an advantage. If enemies respawn, there is no advantage to rest spamming.

 

What kind of an idiot would allow a game to be broken so that the players can get infinite gold and resources.

Nearly every game is like this. What RPG has finite gold in the game economy? There is almost always farming. It's not that hard to add money sinks, though. Equipment durability is a good one. You could keep fighting bandits forever and collecting their gear to sell, but you'll be wearing out your own higher quality gear as you do it.  Disposable items like scrolls, potions, arrows, throwing knives, etc... are also good money sinks. And the stronghold, of course. On top of that, item value should deprecate as you flood the market with that item, to discourage boring farming. You don't need (or want) to make farming impossible. Implementing a system of diminishing returns is the best solution. 

Edited June 12, 2013 by SunBroSolaire

[Prometheus]

You will do more standard damage with a two handed weapon against heavily armored targets. Because you will have a problem with the DT with a fast one handed weapon. fast one handed weapons will be great against lightly armored enemies. If you don't use a longsword as a rogue you will be ineffective against heavily armored targets. see qoutes from formspring:
 

Rangers and rogues both have high potential for damage over time.

 

Well, you use the word "potential", as if that high damage is somehow not guaranteed. If so, why not?

 

They have to hit consistently and use weapons that are appropriate for the target's DT. Additionally, the timeliness of when and how class abilities are used can have a large impact on efficacy. A rogue using Finishing Blow prematurely is wasting it.

[Karkarov]

Hopefully you're right Infinitron, and it's limited to attempted assassinations.

Eh it is just going to be like a WoW rogue.  Lots of prep, perfect positioning, unload with a set of specific skills.... then start prepping again so in 30-40 seconds you can do damage again.  Meanwhile the guy with the two hander does steady reliable damage to multiple enemies the entire time.  On a "pure damage" number crunch the two hander guy probably wins.... but the Rogue will still be better for one on one bursts of massive damage at a short time.  In other words two hander is for trash killing, rogue is for precision strike on high threat target.

[Infinitron]

 

Hopefully you're right Infinitron, and it's limited to attempted assassinations.

Eh it is just going to be like a WoW rogue.  Lots of prep, perfect positioning, unload with a set of specific skills.... then start prepping again so in 30-40 seconds you can do damage again.  Meanwhile the guy with the two hander does steady reliable damage to multiple enemies the entire time.  On a "pure damage" number crunch the two hander guy probably wins.... but the Rogue will still be better for one on one bursts of massive damage at a short time.  In other words two hander is for trash killing, rogue is for precision strike on high threat target.

 

 

Except that in WoW you use cheesy aggro manipulation tactics to keep the heat off your rogue so he can keep hitting. It won't be as simple in PE.

[Gfted1]

 

You will do more standard damage with a two handed weapon against heavily armored targets. Because you will have a problem with the DT with a fast one handed weapon. fast one handed weapons will be great against lightly armored enemies. If you don't use a longsword as a rogue you will be ineffective against heavily armored targets. see qoutes from formspring:

 

Rangers and rogues both have high potential for damage over time.

 

Well, you use the word "potential", as if that high damage is somehow not guaranteed. If so, why not?

 

They have to hit consistently and use weapons that are appropriate for the target's DT. Additionally, the timeliness of when and how class abilities are used can have a large impact on efficacy. A rogue using Finishing Blow prematurely is wasting it.

 

 

 

So whats to keep you from switching weapon sets to overcome DT like every other class? Most likely they will have to add some restrictions to the weapons that can be used when you deliver a Finishing Blow. So whittle the mook down with whatever overcomes their DT and then switch weapons and deliver the kill shot?

[Gfted1]

Except that in WoW you use cheesy aggro manipulation tactics to keep the heat off your rogue so he can keep hitting. It won't be as simple in PE.

Can you provide a link to where they discuss aggro mechanics? I hadn't heard of that and am interested in reading up on how it will be handled.

[Infinitron]

It's hard to "whittle down mooks" when they're hitting you back and you're just a fragile rogue.

 

I suspect that the rogue's special abilities will be a more important factor than weapon selection.

 

 

 

Except that in WoW you use cheesy aggro manipulation tactics to keep the heat off your rogue so he can keep hitting. It won't be as simple in PE.

Can you provide a link to where they discuss aggro mechanics? I hadn't heard of that and am interested in reading up on how it will be handled.

 

There won't be any.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Infinitron

[Gfted1]

It's hard to "whittle down mooks" when they're hitting you back and you're just a fragile rogue.

I was envisioning something like: vanish, stab, vanish, stab. I don't have any idea how stealth works in PE but couldn't a rogue re-vanish after attacking in the IE games?

[Prometheus]

So whats to keep you from switching weapon sets to overcome DT like every other class? Most likely they will have to add some restrictions to the weapons that can be used when you deliver a Finishing Blow. So whittle the mook down with whatever overcomes their DT and then switch weapons and deliver the kill shot?

 

Nothing I think it's just a tactical decision. But changing weapons will not instantaneous and you will have only two weapon sets.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Prometheus

[Infinitron]

 

It's hard to "whittle down mooks" when they're hitting you back and you're just a fragile rogue.

I was envisioning something like: vanish, stab, vanish, stab. I don't have any idea how stealth works in PE but couldn't a rogue re-vanish after attacking in the IE games?

 

 

Nope, once you were engaged in combat you couldn't go back into stealth. That was the selling point of the Shadowdancer prestige class in Neverwinter Nights - they were the only class with the ability to hide in plain sight during fights.

[Arkeus]

Huh, so rogues will do the most dps.

Actually, i got the impression that Rogues are good for spike damge: E.G, they can do a LOT of damage in a short while if backstabing an unaware foe, but they can't maintain their offense for long, and they can't do much damage if it's not against an otherwise occupied foe, and they are also very squishy.