Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[Tigranes]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to constantly accuse your interlocutors of 'faux moral outrage'. Does it have to be 'false'? It could be 'true' and just as unhelpful. It's a pointless line of attack.

 

If we take a cynical and ultra-pragmatic view, then sure, I think the government should monitor its citizens. I also think that in the current political state of affairs it is inevitable, and that something like prism is not likely to ever go away in the foreseeable future. The thing is, if you then conclude that people shouldn't worry about it or stop the 'faux moral outrage', that' s interesting - you just shifted effortlessly from a cynical and world-weary view to a naive one. The fellow screaming holy hell the government should protect the people is naive to be sure, but it's even more naive to suggest we should forget about our own position of interests and engage in self-destructive stockholm syndrome to say "oh well gov will do what it does". (We recognise this turn easily in some game-related arguments...) The truly pragmatic individual would take it to its conclusion and decide that he/she must continue to criticise the government and argue for his/her interests of privacy and personal rights, while fully cognizant of the fact that this has been going on for decades and is not likely to stop.  That is, in this case, cynical/pragmatic/realistic, especially because it's not like supporting prism gives you any short term advantages. 

 

Criticism and moral outrage may not do a whole lot, and so on an individual level risking your neck in its name like Snowden did is not particularly prudent. But to give up on it and openly embrace the government's actions when it tramples over you isn't pragmatism, it's naive stupidity. The fact that this is a continuous and overwhelming affair doesn't change this.

[Gfted1]

Rolf.

 

Its a program that's been ongoing for more than 50 years. If people are just now deciding the sky is falling then I find that to be disingenuous in the least and an outright uneducated Chicken Little mentality at its worst.

[Malcador]

 

Because any of the other jokers would have prevented this

 

Of all the others, I think Ron Paul would've not only done it, i think that he would've gone so far as dismantle the NSA complelely (blocked by congress ofcourse). 

 

//EDIT: But these "would've, should've"-statements are pretty much pointless. What is more interesting is what is being done right now, which seems to be nothing.

 

Eh can't see that as productive. Eliminate your country's best SIGINT agency and hope nothing ill comes of it in the end ? Not disagreeing that Intelligence agencies be kept on a tight leash though

[Drowsy Emperor]

None of these individuals tried to approach anyone in authority who could have dealt with the matter responsibly.

 

It's pure childishness to suggest that no-one in government is capable of holding the system accountable. I hate to even mention the man, but technically George Galloway is an MP. Any British citizen would be entirely correct to take the matter up with him; and I hoping none of you are desperate enough to suggest he's part of the establishment. Nor is he by any means the only non-establishment Parliamentary member.

 

All this obsession with 'going public' is flatulence emanating from the very real problems of the system pre-1960/70s. But after all the reforms and courage to get protection in law... you ignorant bastards urinate on it.

 

When did you become a part of the Borg collective?

 

Remind us what happened to the pilots who shot up the civilians in Baghdad (the case Manning blew)? In other words, when the whistle was already blown and when it was time for the system to take action.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 But to give up on it and openly embrace the government's actions when it tramples over you isn't pragmatism, it's naive stupidity. The fact that this is a continuous and overwhelming affair doesn't change this.

 

The crux of the matter.

[pmp10]

Rolf.

 

Its a program that's been ongoing for more than 50 years. If people are just now deciding the sky is falling then I find that to be disingenuous in the least and an outright uneducated Chicken Little mentality at its worst.

No it has not been going for the last 50 years.

The very fact that 'laws' enabling this taping are kept secret by recent regulation indicate as much.

Your "it has been done before" argument can be stretched as far as civilization existed.

And even if true it completely misses the fact that all traffic has been analyzed and possibly recorded.

Unless US government has been opening all foreign mail for the last 50 years it's a major escalation.

Edited June 11, 2013 by pmp10

[Orogun01]

None of these individuals tried to approach anyone in authority who could have dealt with the matter responsibly.

 

It's pure childishness to suggest that no-one in government is capable of holding the system accountable. I hate to even mention the man, but technically George Galloway is an MP. Any British citizen would be entirely correct to take the matter up with him; and I hoping none of you are desperate enough to suggest he's part of the establishment. Nor is he by any means the only non-establishment Parliamentary member.

 

All this obsession with 'going public' is flatulence emanating from the very real problems of the system pre-1960/70s. But after all the reforms and courage to get protection in law... you ignorant bastards urinate on it.

There was a sad joke  in my country about the kidnapping of citizens by South American regimes like Pinochet's; the joke was that people went to the police to report the kidnappings and disappearances that were being enacted by the police.

Why in God's heaven would you trust the proper channels when the proper channels are the ones committing the crime? Its like trying to convince a cop to arrest himself for police brutality.

[Gfted1]

No it has not been going for the last 50 years.

 

 

Yes, it has.

 

Does this blow your mind?

 

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

One point no one mentions is that constitutions worldwide guarantee privacy of mail. So the 19th/20th century (not sure what the first constitution that guaranteed it) is ahead of the 21st.

 

So much for progress.

[Meshugger]

Rolf.

 

Its a program that's been ongoing for more than 50 years. If people are just now deciding the sky is falling then I find that to be disingenuous in the least and an outright uneducated Chicken Little mentality at its worst.

 

Shifting goal posts much? The point is that it is inheritly wrong no matter what.

 

The cat is finally out the bag and now there's the oppurtunity to say ****.that.****. Shut the damn thing down. 

[Gfted1]

Shifting goal posts much? The point is that it is inheritly wrong no matter what.

 

The cat is finally out the bag and now there's the oppurtunity to say ****.that.****. Shut the damn thing down.

 

 

What? I haven't made any other comments on this matter except to point out it been going on for longer than we've all been alive, which most of you don't even seem to realize. That's right, its likely even your parents are archived in some database.

 

What goal posts have I changed btw?

[pmp10]

 

No it has not been going for the last 50 years.

 

 

Yes, it has.

 

Does this blow your mind?

 

Not really as it wasn't what I meant and it doesn't change anything.

Paper mail analogy aside this is not the same as what modern system dose.

You cannot defeat back-doors by encryption. If ECHELON could do that this system would be redundant.

Edited June 11, 2013 by pmp10

[Meshugger]

 

 

Because any of the other jokers would have prevented this

 

Of all the others, I think Ron Paul would've not only done it, i think that he would've gone so far as dismantle the NSA complelely (blocked by congress ofcourse). 

 

//EDIT: But these "would've, should've"-statements are pretty much pointless. What is more interesting is what is being done right now, which seems to be nothing.

 

Eh can't see that as productive. Eliminate your country's best SIGINT agency and hope nothing ill comes of it in the end ? Not disagreeing that Intelligence agencies be kept on a tight leash though

 

 

Of course it would cripple the US in terms of influence as a super power in the espionage-business. But i think humanity can handle the tears of a general or two.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

 

Shifting goal posts much? The point is that it is inheritly wrong no matter what.

 

The cat is finally out the bag and now there's the oppurtunity to say ****.that.****. Shut the damn thing down.

 

 

What? I haven't made any other comments on this matter except to point out it been going on for longer than we've all been alive, which most of you don't even seem to realize. That's right, its likely even your parents are archived in some database.

 

What goal posts have I changed btw?

 

 

Whops, i read the wrong quote. My bad, sorry.

[Gfted1]

Do you understand the difference between wiretapping and back-door access?

Honestly, I don't have the interest to get into a circle jerk over terminology. ECHELON is "capable of interception and content inspection of telephone calls, fax, e-mail and other data traffic globally through the interception of communication bearers including satellite transmission, public switched telephone networks (which once carried most Internet traffic) and microwave links. If you think that this tool is kept offline until they have a REALLY good reason or that it has not been used on its own citizens then I don't know what to tell you.

[pmp10]

Please remove.

Edited June 11, 2013 by pmp10

[Malcador]

Of course it would cripple the US in terms of influence as a super power in the espionage-business. But i think humanity can handle the tears of a general or two.

Well,they do have a role in playing defense as well as keeping eyes on everyone (although ostensibly watching external threats) so that does open the US to some kinds of hurt (although I'm guessing you Euros would probably clap at that). But eh, Paul's plans always have a couple of head shaker elements.

[exodiark]

I think PRISM is necessary for US, because:
- NSA has a lot of grounds to cover. USA is seriously big.
- USA has the most diverse population in the world, which loyalties varies wildly.
- USA has made a lot of enemies (or frenemies) in recent years: the Middle East, the Central Americans, Russia, China, North Korea, and many more.

This surveillance system kept China safe from their neighbors so I think USA can benefit from this.
IMO security + stability >>> personal freedom anyway, since:
- you can't ever be free anyway, you can't break free from law of physics.
- anarchy is horrific, live in Baghdad for a taste. Car bombings everyday and people get killed just because they are in wrong place and time. Imagine Boston bombing, but even more frequent and organized.

[obyknven]

 

[Tigranes]

Rolf.

 

Its a program that's been ongoing for more than 50 years. If people are just now deciding the sky is falling then I find that to be disingenuous in the least and an outright uneducated Chicken Little mentality at its worst.

So if a program has been going on for 50 years, it doesn't matter that that it's changed over those 50 years, either you should have been outraging for the last 50 years or you should just accept it and whatever forms into which it develops in the future? Seems like that's an attitude lacking in both idealism and pragmatism, useful for laughing at others but not for constructing a useful approach to anything.

 

Yes, Echelon has been around and it is in many ways just as invasive. Yes, not everyone may be aware of this and it's useful to bring it up. I'm generally supportive of strong governments and know fully well someone like me could not survive very well in an anarchistic environment, and that 'free speech no matter what' is a terribly silly ideology to live by. That doesn't mean I think it's a very good attitude to just say "hey this has been going on forever so meh".

[Drowsy Emperor]

One would have to be really blind not to notice the creeping authoritarianism in all this. Mechanisms of control have been developed that put the former Soviet Union to shame. 

[Tagaziel]

One point no one mentions is that constitutions worldwide guarantee privacy of mail. So the 19th/20th century (not sure what the first constitution that guaranteed it) is ahead of the 21st.

Brilliant! I'm sure no one would even so much as try to abuse the Sacred Right to Total Privacy that Cannot Be Ever Breached for nefarious purposes. After all, if no one is permitted to open mail for any reason, why would anyone try to use such a perfectly secure system for discussing illicit activities or disseminating illegal materials.

 

Sarcasm aside, you do realize that, except for human dignity, no right is absolute and irrevocable, right? The foundation of the modern state is a balance between the interests of the individual and the interests of the many. This balance is necessary for the protection of the citizenry, whether they like it or not.

 

One would have to be really blind not to notice the creeping authoritarianism in all this. Mechanisms of control have been developed that put the former Soviet Union to shame.

Such as? "Creeping authoritarianism" is a buzzword I'd associate with eg. the German far left, Greens, anarchists, and communists (i.e. the biggest nutjobs of the German society), used to instill fear in listeners without actually having to explain it.

 

So if a program has been going on for 50 years, it doesn't matter that that it's changed over those 50 years, either you should have been outraging for the last 50 years or you should just accept it and whatever forms into which it develops in the future? Seems like that's an attitude lacking in both idealism and pragmatism, useful for laughing at others but not for constructing a useful approach to anything.

 

Yes, Echelon has been around and it is in many ways just as invasive. Yes, not everyone may be aware of this and it's useful to bring it up. I'm generally supportive of strong governments and know fully well someone like me could not survive very well in an anarchistic environment, and that 'free speech no matter what' is a terribly silly ideology to live by. That doesn't mean I think it's a very good attitude to just say "hey this has been going on forever so meh".

I think his point is that shrieking every time a new security tool is unveiled/uncovered and throwing around analogies to Nineteen-Eighty-Four and assorted conspiracy gibberish is a disservice. The populace gradually starts to ignore these "revelations," which can prevent it from acting down the road when the government actually does something terrible.

[Tigranes]

OK, so what is an appropriate response to the Prism leak? Sagely nod and say "oh, this is pretty much Echelon v2.0", on the assumption that everybody else will understand we're to wait until something really terrible (wherever the line may be) happens, and then we will all rise up? 

[Hurlshort]

The appropriate reaction is probably exactly what is happening, in that the NSA is getting called out on their data trove.  Between the groups that scream for privacy and the groups that scream about how inefficient collecting all this data is, the NSA is going to have to tighten up their operations.  Problem solved?  (yes, that is a question mark.)

[Gfted1]

So if a program has been going on for 50 years, it doesn't matter that that it's changed over those 50 years, either you should have been outraging for the last 50 years or you should just accept it and whatever forms into which it develops in the future? Seems like that's an attitude lacking in both idealism and pragmatism, useful for laughing at others but not for constructing a useful approach to anything.

 

Yes, Echelon has been around and it is in many ways just as invasive. Yes, not everyone may be aware of this and it's useful to bring it up. I'm generally supportive of strong governments and know fully well someone like me could not survive very well in an anarchistic environment, and that 'free speech no matter what' is a terribly silly ideology to live by. That doesn't mean I think it's a very good attitude to just say "hey this has been going on forever so meh".

Youre entitled to your opinion and I respect that. To me its a meh because its something that's been going on since before my birth and Im totally unaffected by it. I also understand that its not for everybody. I actually support programs like this and have no problem with ECHELON, or the natural evolution (to include cellular, internet) PRISM.

 

I don't have a problem with the whistleblower either (because I thought these programs were common knowledge anyway). Its good for people to keep their governments honest even if it involves falling on your own sword. That poor bastard is screwed.