Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[BruceVC]

I dunno if wikileaks really compromises national security. If they do I don't think it's really on the same level as say a Russian mole within The Circus. Is any of the leaked information really that useful to criminals?

 

Wikileaks made public several very damaging and embarrassing opinions of USA diplomats that were based throughout the world in various countries. Its wasn't information that criminals could have used but it could, and did in  some cases, cause damage to the integrity of the USA and its allies as this was information that was discussed in private.

 

For example the king of Saudi Arabia said to the Americans " You need to cut the head off the snake"  in relation to Iran and how America needs to deal with Iran enriching Uranium and there growing militancy. Despite the fact that most Sunni dominated countries in Middle East  would love to have Iran subdued through a USA military attack this is not the type of thing you say publicly as it raises tension in the region between various countries. This is the type of confidential information that was exposed through Wikileaks

[Drowsy Emperor]

*sigh* The old: "if its bad and you can imagine it, then someone somewhere is doing it" has never been more true.

 

The older I get the more things that were previously discarded and mocked as conspiracy theories turned out to be true. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I dunno if wikileaks really compromises national security. If they do I don't think it's really on the same level as say a Russian mole within The Circus. Is any of the leaked information really that useful to criminals?

 

Wikileaks made public several very damaging and embarrassing opinions of USA diplomats that were based throughout the world in various countries. Its wasn't information that criminals could have used but it could, and did in  some cases, cause damage to the integrity of the USA and its allies as this was information that was discussed in private.

 

For example the king of Saudi Arabia said to the Americans " You need to cut the head off the snake"  in relation to Iran and how America needs to deal with Iran enriching Uranium and there growing militancy. Despite the fact that most Sunni dominated countries in Middle East  would love to have Iran subdued through a USA military attack this is not the type of thing you say publicly as it raises tension in the region between various countries. This is the type of confidential information that was exposed through Wikileaks

 

 

Your inverse logic is perverse - If they weren't plotting in secret and making embarrassing opinions there would been no embarrassment, would there?

 

We're all aware that these things are done, but you can't seriously complain when people see you with your hand in the cookie jar can you? The bastards, they actually thought to look!

[Walsingham]

The thing a lot of people seem reluctant to 'get' is that Bruce is completely correct when he talks about damage.

 

In a lot of parts of the world a public message  can be appallingly inflammatory if revealed. Face matters to billions of people.

 

Refusing to accept this is at best ethnocentric, at worst it's arguing our foreign policy engagement should just be a massive "F*** Y**! GET OVER IT!"

 

In either case it doesn't strike me as consistent with a caring sharing let's all feel smug and read the Guardian perspective.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its a good that there are people in the US like Manning and Snowden that are brave enough to put their conscience first and act.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

You're ignoring the issue so you can sound off about The Great Satan.

 

There is a system for reporting problems of conscience. So far as I'm aware, none of these cases used that system. The system exists so that _action_ can be initiated by people with clout and seen through. More importantly, if my 'conscience' is mentally unstable, or factually incorrect then it gets dealt with in a responsible fashion.

[Malcador]

So if you have a strong belief that the system will just bury your report, what do you do then ?

[Drowsy Emperor]

You're ignoring the issue so you can sound off about The Great Satan.

 

There is a system for reporting problems of conscience. So far as I'm aware, none of these cases used that system. The system exists so that _action_ can be initiated by people with clout and seen through. More importantly, if my 'conscience' is mentally unstable, or factually incorrect then it gets dealt with in a responsible fashion.

 

Its a question of whether you trust the system to act in a responsible way or not. If you don't trust it, why go through the proper channels?

Snowden wasn't just in the system, he was the system and he had no faith that it was going to act in every one's best interest. He explicitly says so himself.  

That in itself is more damaging than anything he could possibly release. 

 

We could declare him stupid, uninformed or mad - but it would have been attempted at this point... if there were any grounds for it.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[pmp10]

There is a system for reporting problems of conscience. So far as I'm aware, none of these cases used that system. The system exists so that _action_ can be initiated by people with clout and seen through. More importantly, if my 'conscience' is mentally unstable, or factually incorrect then it gets dealt with in a responsible fashion.

I can't believe you think that any such system works.

My country has been breaking human rights for a while now and all politicians have to say about it is that discussion of it is 'unpatriotic'. The only people willing to discuss it in open political space are various radicals and extremists.

[WDeranged]

Apparently whistle blowers are getting a particularly hard time under the Obama administration, and this is compared to the paranoia of the Bush years so I don't blame the guy for being cautious.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I think they nabbed him already. He revealed his location, how hard would it have been to mobilize assets to follow him the minute he checked out of the hotel.

[Malcador]

Could be he's just decided to hide out someplace, as well.

[BruceVC]

 

You're ignoring the issue so you can sound off about The Great Satan.

 

There is a system for reporting problems of conscience. So far as I'm aware, none of these cases used that system. The system exists so that _action_ can be initiated by people with clout and seen through. More importantly, if my 'conscience' is mentally unstable, or factually incorrect then it gets dealt with in a responsible fashion.

 

Its a question of whether you trust the system to act in a responsible way or not. If you don't trust it, why go through the proper channels?

Snowden wasn't just in the system, he was the system and he had no faith that it was going to act in every one's best interest. He explicitly says so himself.  

That in itself is more damaging than anything he could possibly release. 

 

We could declare him stupid, uninformed or mad - but it would have been attempted at this point... if there were any grounds for it.

 

 

Incorrect my friend, Snowden was a security analyst who worked for the NSA, he was just an employee. He was not the system at all. He felt Prism was too intrusive and he decided to break the very clear terms of his binding work contract. He will more than likely go to jail for 10-20 years. But I admire what he did as he knew what he was doing was illegal and he would be prosecuted but he seems to have felt that the principle of exposing Prism was more important. I do think the public discussion of Prism is necessary. I'm just glad I don't have to do the hard time in jail.

 

Assange is a parasite, I don't see him and Snowden in the same light at all. I don't respect Assange at all

Edited June 11, 2013 by BruceVC

[melkathi]

I was watching Cry Freedom the other day. Quite happy that a journalist fled the country to stand up to his government then.

Edited June 11, 2013 by melkathi

[BruceVC]

I was watching Cry Freedom the other day. Quite happy that a journalist fled the country to stand up to his government then.

 

Nice one Its a quite an emotional and evocative movie. What most people don't realize is that there were many white South Africans who also fought against Apartheid.

[Meshugger]

Watch this everybody, especially 3:40 and after. And look at the date when it was posted:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH9SbwSQCk4

 

Yeah.

[Malcador]

Because any of the other jokers would have prevented this

[BruceVC]

Watch this everybody, especially 3:40 and after. And look at the date when it was posted:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH9SbwSQCk4

 

Yeah.

 

I disagree with most of what he says and as you mentioned it is 5 years old and we  know for a fact many things he says about Obama have been proven incorrect.

Edited June 11, 2013 by BruceVC

[WDeranged]

Watch this everybody, especially 3:40 and after. And look at the date when it was posted:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH9SbwSQCk4

 

Yeah.

 

I always mistrusted Obama, he appeared out of nowhere with his Change! slogan, much like the grinning demon we elected in the UK ten years earlier...jaded I am.

 

Mike Gravel seems to have had Obama pegged but I can't help feeling like Malcador 

[Tagaziel]

So if you have a strong belief that the system will just bury your report, what do you do then ?

Maybe you do something like LTC Daniel Davis and create two versions of a report, one that's based on unclassified information and publicly available and another directed to the Congress and other people in power?

 

http://www.afghanreport.com/

 

Whatever you say about Davis, he did not blow the whistle indiscriminately.

[Walsingham]

None of these individuals tried to approach anyone in authority who could have dealt with the matter responsibly.

 

It's pure childishness to suggest that no-one in government is capable of holding the system accountable. I hate to even mention the man, but technically George Galloway is an MP. Any British citizen would be entirely correct to take the matter up with him; and I hoping none of you are desperate enough to suggest he's part of the establishment. Nor is he by any means the only non-establishment Parliamentary member.

 

All this obsession with 'going public' is flatulence emanating from the very real problems of the system pre-1960/70s. But after all the reforms and courage to get protection in law... you ignorant bastards urinate on it.

[Meshugger]

Because any of the other jokers would have prevented this

 

Of all the others, I think Ron Paul would've not only done it, i think that he would've gone so far as dismantle the NSA complelely (blocked by congress ofcourse). 

 

//EDIT: But these "would've, should've"-statements are pretty much pointless. What is more interesting is what is being done right now, which seems to be nothing.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

 

Watch this everybody, especially 3:40 and after. And look at the date when it was posted:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH9SbwSQCk4

 

Yeah.

 

I disagree with most of what he says and as you mentioned it is 5 years old and we  know for a fact many things he says about Obama have been proven incorrect.

 

 

Oh come on. You can't be that lazy at forming an argument. If you claim that they are proven incorrect, please provide how.

[Gfted1]

What is more interesting is what is being done right now, which seems to be nothing.

 

Whats being done now is the status quo for the last 50+ years. What do you feel should be done?

 

Lets move this discussion beyond faux moral outrage. Do you guys honestly feel a government should never monitor its citizens?

[Meshugger]

 

What is more interesting is what is being done right now, which seems to be nothing.

 

Whats being done now is the status quo for the last 50+ years. What do you feel should be done?

 

Lets move this discussion beyond faux moral outrage. Do you guys honestly feel a government should never monitor its citizens?

 

 

Of course they shouldn't. Stop being silly.

 

What government should do is to monitor certain individuals through basic intelligence. Not through indiscriminate recording of everything. That's not even up to debate for a modern and open society.