Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[Nepenthe]

 

 

 

I think it's very dangerous to leave the military in the hands of this corrupt, overreaching government.

 

What would you suggest instead?

 

I suggest we elect a less corrupt and overreaching one.

 

 

I'm not saying it's a daft idea. But i don't think you're going to get that unless and until we stop people going into politics at a young age. Politicos are completely specialised, and entirely isolated in their little world. At least over here.

 

It's no wonder they think they have all the answers when they think that only they understand the question.

 

 

Since I can't "like" this more than once, I'm going to QFT it.

 

Of course, in Finland, we have our professional politicos supplemented by reality tv "stars" and other random high school dropout entertainers who can't manage even their finances, never mind those of a country, but...

[Guard Dog]

 

I really can't think of a single politician I have a shred of respect for. Marco Rubio was one I had high hopes for but he got to Sodom-Om-The-Potomac he became another big government type. There is not a single one I'd want to have any power over me and mine but they seem to take more and more every day.

 

What about your president GD? Surly you respect Obama even if you don't agree with all his policies

 

No. Not even a little. Him least of all. When he was first elected in 2008 I didn't care much about him one way or the other. He was just another politician I didn't vote for but I disliked McCain so intensely I wasn't terribly upset even though I disagreed with him on everything. Then in 2009 his administration has the DHS direct local law enforcement everywhere to begin paying special attention to veterans, legal gun owners, Christians, and "liberty-lovers" as likely terrorists all the while refusing to acknowledge actual terrorism as such tells me just who he thinks his real enemies are. People just like me. And as bad as that is he has only gotten worse since. 

 

I've said it before and I mean it, the single most important thing in this life, individual liberty means nothing to Barack Obama. When he was re-elected I felt physically sick. I've never been depressed at the outcome of something so petty as a political election before.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Guard Dog

[Walsingham]

You know I'm not anti-you, GD. But i have to say I think you're putting the worst possible interpretation on the DHS guidance.

 

Al Qaeda notwithstanding, the USA has a long standing problem with veterans and anti-federals. Never mind a far right scene that is on the increase, driven in large part by a better organised prison gangs.

 

Talking about the Pres as if he's the socialist anti-christ doesn't help, either. I mean you're pretty moderate. But you can't deny there's a lot of folks practically advocating armed rebellion.

 

It would be an extremely weird intelligence apparatus that flat out ignored all this.

[Guard Dog]

I don't think he's socialist. I certainly don't think he's the anti-christ. If you'll remember I even corrected Tsuga for calling him evil. To be sure he is not. However if someone is so opposed to you on every level the differences are small. And yes there is an extremely small minority of both right and left groups out there who blithely talk about overthrowing the government. They are no a credible threat to anyone. What this man has done is taken ALL people who are opposed to him  and his politics and lumped them into that group and then turned around and ordered law enforcement to watch them. For God's sake Wals, the IRS is auditing outspoken opponents of the president and trying to suppress  PAC groups that have political leaning opposite his. They were talking about using drones to kill Americans IN AMERICA! Yes they apologized for saying it. Yes they said they didn't mean it. You'd be a fool if you believed that. I used to think the possibility of a second armed civil war was ludicrous. Now I could easily see a number of way it could happen and might.

 

As far as the interpretation of that 2009 DHS directive, no I think their meaning was very clear. And I am FAR from the only one to think that. Whatever respect I had for that man and his administration was lost for good and all when that came out. He says I'm a potential enemy of the United States. Fine.

[Walsingham]

I don't think he's socialist. I certainly don't think he's the anti-christ. If you'll remember I even corrected Tsuga for calling him evil. To be sure he is not. However if someone is so opposed to you on every level the differences are small. And yes there is an extremely small minority of both right and left groups out there who blithely talk about overthrowing the government. They are no a credible threat to anyone. What this man has done is taken ALL people who are opposed to him  and his politics and lumped them into that group and then turned around and ordered law enforcement to watch them. For God's sake Wals, the IRS is auditing outspoken opponents of the president and trying to suppress  PAC groups that have political leaning opposite his. They were talking about using drones to kill Americans IN AMERICA! Yes they apologized for saying it. Yes they said they didn't mean it. You'd be a fool if you believed that. I used to think the possibility of a second armed civil war was ludicrous. Now I could easily see a number of way it could happen and might.

 

As far as the interpretation of that 2009 DHS directive, no I think their meaning was very clear. And I am FAR from the only one to think that. Whatever respect I had for that man and his administration was lost for good and all when that came out. He says I'm a potential enemy of the United States. Fine.

 

I apologise if i gave the impression that I thought you were being OTT. I did try not to do that.

 

Veterans are a genuine threat. They have both the operational skills and weapons training to kill a lot of people. I'm thinking of John Allen Muhammad here. [Although it seems his motivation was personally deranged rather than political]. Factor in how many current veterans have experience of terrorist tradecraft by virtue of fighting them, and it gets even worse.

 

The other example I have to mention is the Oklahoma City bombing. Tim McVeigh was also a veteran.

 

You yourself admit _in the post above_ that you can imagine groups taking extreme action to protest government activity.

 

I can't speak for the USA, but certainly in the UK servicemen and ex-servicemen are routinely monitored and investigated. I think it would be naive and dangerous for law enforcement to do otherwise. Because plenty of people in uniform are self-serving ****s, liars, racists... and the only way to see their just desserts served is to beak about in their affairs.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Walsingham

[Guard Dog]

If the US government feels it is appropriate to beak about in the affairs ( I love that term  ) of citizens whose only crime was to bear arms in the service of their country then it has finally become the monster the far right groups have always said it was. Do you realize since 2009 six states...SIX, have had articles of secession introduced in their respective legislatures.  Every one was soundly voted down of course but the fact that it is happening is not insignificant. Avalanches begin with a few pebbles. The administrations response to this has only been further antagonism. This is heading in a very bad direction.

[Walsingham]

Glad you like it. I'm trying to remember where I picked it up.

 

Insisting that servicemen are representatives of a code of honur is something I understand. But you surely must concede that 18th century honour has very little to do with 21st Century policing.

 

If it makes you feel a bit weird, imagine how some random wahhabi feels. So far as he's concerned, he's just doing honour to Allah and his Prophet (PBUH).

 

the break down, so far as I can see, is that there needs to be a public referendum in many countries where people are asked to stipulate where the line should sit between liberty and security. until they do, no public servant is going to feel they are doing their job unless they ALWAYS ask for more power. Because currently it's impossible for officials to turn around and say "**** you, Johnny Public. We said this might happen, and it has. But you said you'd be cool with it no more than once per year."

Edited August 14, 2013 by Walsingham

[Wrath of Dagon]

I really can't think of a single politician I have a shred of respect for. Marco Rubio was one I had high hopes for but he got to Sodom-Om-The-Potomac he became another big government type. There is not a single one I'd want to have any power over me and mine but they seem to take more and more every day.

I've come to admire Jeff Sessions more and more lately. In any case, national security is a legitimate function of government, so no matter how bad it gets, they still have to do the job.

 

As far as respect for Obama, you first have to show respect to get respect.

 

As far as killing Americans in America with drones, not always a bad idea : http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/alabama-hostage-safe-after-fbi-kills-kidnapper-with-help-of-military-drone/ But I guess Rand Paul wouldn't like that unless the drone delivered beer.

 

Of course in that case it wasn't a question of killing, but if the drone had a laser ray gun it might have been.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

the drone delivered beer.

I'm fine with that.

 

I also have to agree with Wals on closely monitoring combat veterans, simply because they seem to be more likely to have PTSD which does make people behave erratically.

Edited August 15, 2013 by KaineParker

[Hurlshort]

It would probably be a lot more forgivable for us to monitor veterans closely if we were doing a better job dishing out VA benefits.  There is no excuse for the huge backlog.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It would probably be a lot more forgivable for us to monitor veterans closely if we were doing a better job dishing out VA benefits. There is no excuse for the huge backlog.

Absolutely. The way VA benefits have been handled is shameful.

Edited August 15, 2013 by KaineParker

[Walsingham]

Ref Mr Parker's comment in light of Hurlshots: monitoring without action is a total waste of goddamn time, money, and liberty.

 

The real issue, as I've said many time sin this thread,  is what we do about threats once identified.

 

What we _should_ be doing is funding programs which tackle the extremists we already know about and or have locked up.

 

What we _should_ be doing is attracting less nutters and more normal people into the services (so we don't have to rely on nutters). We should also be treating veterans as people with needs we already know about, like PTSD.

[Nepenthe]

Personally think one should target the recruiting grounds of the terrorists. McDonalds, Disney world, Harry Potter. Fat 10 year olds in strollers... Soon they'll start school shooting each other and leave us in peace.

[WDeranged]

A Guide to the Deceptions, Misinformation, and Word Games Officials Use to Mislead the Public About NSA Surveillance.

[Calax]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/15/politics/nsa-privacy-rules/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

Meow...

 

Also GD, we've been over the drones before, it all depends on what you read into what was said.

[Guard Dog]

I know what he said Calax. You and I are not going to agree on this. Unless of course it was a Republican administration. Then you would be horrified. The difference it I would still be just as angry either way. I am not willing to tolerate this BS simply because the people doing it align with me politically.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I really would like a drone beer delivery service. Perhaps we should start that "lil' obsidianites slush fund" and start an enterprise.

[Guard Dog]

Now there is a done function we can ALL get behind!

[Nepenthe]

I know what he said Calax. You and I are not going to agree on this. Unless of course it was a Republican administration. Then you would be horrified. The difference it I would still be just as angry either way. I am not willing to tolerate this BS simply because the people doing it align with me politically.

And that's what I respect you for. Well, that and a few other things, but

[Guard Dog]

Thank you! I try to be consistent and persistent!

[Nepenthe]

Thank you! I try to be consistent and persistent!

Better than constipated and perspiring!

[Walsingham]

 

Thank you! I try to be consistent and persistent!

Better than constipated and perspiring!

 

 

Confirm that.

[Hiro Protagonist]

So I'm guessing all this NSA is old news now? Most people have gone back to their lives, family, jobs, etc. I know in my circle of friends and co-workers, no one either knew about this or cared about it. I'd have to say I felt the same way. Apathy rules.

[pmp10]

Apathy already ruled when the whole thing was blown-open.

It's in the future that people will ask themselves 'how did things got this far?'.

[Hiro Protagonist]

You mean the minority will ask themselves as the majority won't care much like what's happening today.