Symbols and Flags

[BruceVC]

Hi All

 

This topic is a spin-off of the discussion we were having around the Swastika and there are several points I would like to discuss for those interested. I would like to start with the Confederate Flag and people using it in the USA. On my previous forum there was this heated discussion around whether it was racist and divisive.

 

There were several people on that forum from the South in America who I know were not racist and said the Confederate flag represented  history, others claimed it was racist. So what does the Confederate flag represent to you? What do you think if someone is wearing a shirt with it on and is sitting in a restaurant that you are eating it?

[Oerwinde]

Its definitely divisive. I really like the design, but even if you ignore the link to slavery, it still represents the idea of the South being distinct and separate from the North. People who claim it is racist need to look at the context too. The abolition of slavery to southerners at the time essentially meant to them the end of their way of life and the complete collapse of their economy. Now looking back I don't believe it did lead to a complete economic collapse, but they didn't know that at the time.

 

Either way, I like the flag, its a nice design. Being Canadian I don't have any of the emotional ties to the civil war and US history though.

[Walsingham]

I'd take the view that the flag is a communicative signal.

 

The theory of communication I learned was that they consist of three things: grammar, lexicon, and context. Context is _inescapably_ part of any message, whether we like it or not.

 

However, it's been my observation that context can be de-emphasised if you have a very elaborate and specific lexicon or grammar surrounding the word.

 

The issue with flags is that they are (in many instances) a very simple lexicon - only Arabic flags have mottos on them these day I think. And they have about the simplest grammar I can think of because - with the exception of naval signals - flags fly alone.

 

Therefore, when it comes to flags, context is _everything._

[BruceVC]

Good points raised so far boys, good points. As I tend to mention fairly regularly I really enjoy these forums as I always get an interesting perspective

[Walsingham]

*snipped*

 

*sleepy lunacy*

Edited May 30, 2013 by Walsingham

[Raithe]

As Wals says, context can be an important thing.

 

On the General Lee and Dukes of Hazzard, it worked..  but in other situations it can scream out on the links to racism.

Although how much that gets developed due to racist groups using it, or purely it's historical context..

 

I can also see it for the way it represented a group of people who felt they had the right to withdraw from the Union because they disagreed with it's policies. Which always raises up a few interesting questions...

[BruceVC]

Just a thought, but perhaps the point is less to do with tricking out your gear than it is simply to d with range.

 

The inrefaces we use don't handle range very well, they do lateral movement.

 

The tolerances are OK for modern and future weapons. However, for older weapons like swords and flails and so on the relative error massively increases. Misjudging range by an inch is life or death. So medieval first person is NEVER going to take off so long as we continue with our existing screens.

 

Woah, sorry Walsie but I have no idea what this means in relation to flags?

[Walsingham]

 

Just a thought, but perhaps the point is less to do with tricking out your gear than it is simply to d with range.

 

The inrefaces we use don't handle range very well, they do lateral movement.

 

The tolerances are OK for modern and future weapons. However, for older weapons like swords and flails and so on the relative error massively increases. Misjudging range by an inch is life or death. So medieval first person is NEVER going to take off so long as we continue with our existing screens.

 

Woah, sorry Walsie but I have no idea what this means in relation to flags?

 

 

 

ROFL. Wrong thread.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Just a thought, but perhaps the point is less to do with tricking out your gear than it is simply to d with range.

 

The inrefaces we use don't handle range very well, they do lateral movement.

 

The tolerances are OK for modern and future weapons. However, for older weapons like swords and flails and so on the relative error massively increases. Misjudging range by an inch is life or death. So medieval first person is NEVER going to take off so long as we continue with our existing screens.

 

Woah, sorry Walsie but I have no idea what this means in relation to flags?

 

 

 

ROFL. Wrong thread.

 

 

Okay good, I thought " its not often I completely don't get what someone is saying " 

[Walsingham]

OK. Everyone has to confuse Bruce now.

[pmp10]

Keep in mind that most people don't really know how the flag of confederacy looked like.

In popular mind stars and bars have long been replaced by the battle flag.

It's quite ironic that people celebrate successes of the armies but don't care for the state as such.

[Walsingham]

Keep in mind that most people don't really know how the flag of confederacy looked like.

In popular mind stars and bars have long been replaced by the battle flag.

It's quite ironic that people celebrate successes of the armies but don't care for the state as such.

 

If I may run with your point, I think that pride is something much under-rated and or abused in our culture. I'm not saying that pride isn't a problem taken too far. I'm saying that pride in who you are, what your roots are, your values and standards... that is part of what keeps you solid as a person.

 

Consumerism takes pride away. You are your wallet.

 

People don't sing to a flag or carry one around on their car because it's pretty. They do it because it means something to them. And as I said earlier about context, what it means is very specific to them.

 

Thinking about it a abit more I guess some of those person specific things are common to others. When we recognise those thing sin others it make sus feel part of a community, and we humans are a community animal. It's an essential drive for us.

[TrashMan]

Bah..everything is racist these days.

 

A different flag or simble divisive? Everything is devisive more or less. Any sub-grou your'e part of is devisive, as it puts you into a specific camp.

Everything in life is.

 

Life is rife with preconceptions and prejudices and sub-groups. It is a fact of human existence that we cannot escape from, and no matter how much chest thumping we do or throw words around like "liberal" and "political correctness", humanity hasn't changed nor wil lti change. Our reasonign changed. Our actions remained the same.

And like those before us who claimed that their reasonns and their goals were noble and just, and those before them were wrong, so do we do the same.

Just as those before us pressured everyone else to conformity or censored, so do we do today.

 

Actors change, the words used change...but it's the same old play.

[Malcador]

It'd be easier to use it if hate groups didn't use it as their banner.

[pmp10]

Bah..everything is racist these days.

Fair enough but not everything is pro-slavery.

That's one of those institutions most people are uncomfortable with.

[TrashMan]

Fun fact:

greece of old was far more liberal than any country today.

[pmp10]

Fun fact:

greece of old was far more liberal than any country today.

That's not true at all.

You may at best find fewer written laws but in antiquity tolerance was always in short supply.

[Hurlshort]

Fun fact:

greece of old was far more liberal than any country today.

 

Fun fact: 

If a student wrote this on a paper I would put a bunch of question marks next to it.

[Nonek]

Why does CND use the rune of Baldur the old norse god? I mean of the Aesir he was probably the nicest and most reasonable, but he still represented a fairly bloodthirsty approach to the world, taking thralls, holmgangs, glorious death in battle, viking raids and all that fun stuff. Seems a bit weird that peacemongers would equate themselves with him.

[TrashMan]

 

Fun fact:

greece of old was far more liberal than any country today.

That's not true at all.

You may at best find fewer written laws but in antiquity tolerance was always in short supply.

 

 

Really?

Homosexuality and pedophilia were fully allowed... sounds very liberal to me.

 

And tolerance? Tolerance was always in short suply. Today too. We just mask it better.

Edited May 30, 2013 by TrashMan

[Gorth]

Hi All

 

This topic is a spin-off of the discussion we were having around the Swastika and there are several points I would like to discuss for those interested. I would like to start with the Confederate Flag and people using it in the USA. On my previous forum there was this heated discussion around whether it was racist and divisive.

 

There were several people on that forum from the South in America who I know were not racist and said the Confederate flag represented  history, others claimed it was racist. So what does the Confederate flag represent to you? What do you think if someone is wearing a shirt with it on and is sitting in a restaurant that you are eating it?

I just find it slightly amusing that most of the "rednecks" shown in popular entertainment is waving the navy ensign flag, thinking it was the national flag. Talk about rebels without clues...

[Guard Dog]

  Gorth is right! Most folks who wave the St. Andrews Cross flag (the stars & bars that are most commonly referred to as the "rebel" flag) would not know the real thing if you rolled it up and thwaped them with it. I had a conversation once with someone who said they were just flying it to honor history. I said that's great, why don't you be historical then and fly the real thing?

 

On that note, most folks seem to agree that the stars and bars are somewhat divisive and it has certainly been waved by some genuinely nasty folks like the KKK, but if you saw someone flying one of the actual flags of the CSA (there were four of them) would you consider that racist or divisive? I would not and I'd buy the honoring history argument in that case.

 

I have mixed feelings on the civil war. I have often made the argument that slavery was just the catalyst for the secession and conflict and the war was not fought over slavery so much as states rights and the role of the federal government and the sovereignty of the states. And that is certainly true. In fact it is the underlying principle in ALL US politics even today. However, the more I have read and learned over the years I'm finding that position harder and harder to defend. Especially since slavery is mentioned numerous times in the CS Constitution. I think now if was a good cause (states rights) fought by great men to defend an atrocity. And that latter lessens the former in a big way. And that is sad.

 

Personally I wish I could go back to 1787 and talk to the folks at the convention in Philadelphia and give them a little insight into what was to come. Outlaw slavery right from the get go. You have to wonder what the world would have been like then. What would have changed.

 

Come to that we used to have an alternate history thread. We ought to do that again.

[pmp10]

 

 

Fun fact:

greece of old was far more liberal than any country today.

That's not true at all.

You may at best find fewer written laws but in antiquity tolerance was always in short supply.

 

 

Really?

Homosexuality and pedophilia were fully allowed... sounds very liberal to me.

 

And tolerance? Tolerance was always in short suply. Today too. We just mask it better.

 

That's the problem - they weren't fully allowed.

Pedophilia had a specific place in the context of mentoring boys and homosexuality could have a prominent role in military structure but you were still tradition bound to marry and have a family.

Traditions and expectations of ancient societies are way off from those of today.

[Oerwinde]

As a side note, the battle flag that most regard as the confederate flag isn't the stars and bars. The first national flag is.

 

Though from what I understand, the battle flag was designed as the national flag but wasn't used because people wanted a similar one to the US flag. Then it caused confusion on the battlefield and by then many regiments and such had adopted the battle flag and because of its popularity it was incorporated into the 2nd national flag.

[ShadySands]

The swastika predates Nazism as has already been mentioned and can be found in different cultures around the world so I have less issues with people trying to "take it back"

 

The battle flag on the other hand is only a symbol of the American Civil War which in the simplest terms was about slavery and I find that harder to justify