Xbox 720 Reveal

[ManifestedISO]

Next-gen consoles are stupid cheap, for what you get. This is truly the apex in the history of price-to-performance.

 

I can understand why that nutty MS exec claimed to be delivering "thousands of dollars in value," if you compare the power and price of the newest hardware to even just the last generation: the PS4 will have 600% more power than the PS3, at a cost of only +33%. And that's including a wireless input device. The new Xbox is still a good value, too, it just comes with an unavoidable camera caveat that I don't want anything to do with.

 

If you guys find value in your 680's and 7970's ... kudos on the multiple monitor setups.        

[anubite]

But, um, the PS4 is still 25% as powerful as an i5. I wouldn't say we're getting a deal at all. The parts are old, you could just buy a PC and save us a headache. I mean really, if we killed the middleman (big consoles) and everyone switch to PC/handheld&mobile for gaming, the industry would be alot healthier, because those platforms are more open source, more economical, and give the consumer choice. More competition is better for us, the consumer, and Sony/M$ would love to wall us in their pretty little garden.

 

I gaurantee you can build a PC that will play "next-gen" games for the same cost of the PS4/XB1 this November, for the same exact price. There is no deal, especially since Steam/GoG sales will save you money over time, compared to console games (Sony/M$ have yet to offer the same kind of deals on their online stores).

 

What is Microsoft/Sony offering you that's of 1000's in value?

 

Play music and movies on your box? My PC already does that.

Play television on your box? Why? What's there to watch? Game of Thrones? Just get that on your PC too... anything else? I mean, what's there to watch that's worth it?

"Share button"? Um, do you really need that? I guess that's a special feature, but... Steam already has (most of) that integration and I don't find it to be all that amazing.

Kinect? I guess if a game ever came out that was good that used it...

Edited June 24, 2013 by anubite

[ManifestedISO]

No, the custom chip in new consoles is not "one quarter" strength of even Haswell. You cannot build a 7870/660 system with an input device for $400. 

[anubite]

I haven't done any calculations, but various sites have. I read 25% somewhere, here's one that says this:

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/156273-xbox-720-vs-ps4-vs-pc-how-the-hardware-specs-compare

 

 

 

A dual-core Brazos (Bobcat core) about 10 times slower than the latest Ivy Bridge parts, in a very naive comparison. So, all in all, an 8-core Jaguar might manage about half the performance of a current-gen Core i7. The GPU comparison is easier: The Radeon 7790 is a $150 card.

 

Processor equivalent to 50% of i7 + $150 card + PSU + motherboard + HDD

 

i7 3370 is $279.99 on newegg, so let's say stupidly, that 50% performance translates into 50% cost = $140

 

$140 (processor)

$150 (vid card)

$50 (this is probably a low watt computer, considering low end parts, so $50 is prob enough for PSU)

$60 (HDD)

$100 (motherboard)

 

$550 USD. This is of course supposing quite a bit, but these are today's prices. Who knows what they'll be come November, or during the xmas holidays. I'm pretty sure someone who's way more saavy at hardware than me, could do exactly as I suggest here - the pricepoint of the PS4/XB1 isn't all that strong, especially when we consider the cost of PC games compared to console games and the fact migrating from each new console will set you back a lot of games (at the very least, you are losing all your downloaded titles on your PS3/360).

 

Also, the PS4 and the XB1 have membership dues if you intend to play online. Which you will.

 

I'm pretty sure PC will always win out, especially if we talk about 1+ years of subscription for online play.

Edited June 24, 2013 by anubite

[Keyrock]

 the PS4 will have 600% more power than the PS3, at a cost of only +33%.

So what you're saying is that the PS3 is overpriced?  I agree.

[Azdeus]

Has anyone made any hardware comparisons between 2005 PC and 360 vs Xbone and 2013 PC?

 

So are the consoles of this gen relatively weaker or stronger than their predecessors?

[ManifestedISO]

A little further down in that article:

 

 

The PS4, in comparison, has an 8-core Jaguar AMD CPU, with a GPU that’s around the same level as the Radeon 7870 (which is significantly more powerful than the 7790).

 

The 7870 is $200 on a good day, which would be half of the PS4's cost alone. Of course, you would also have to add a physical case to your system, plus input devices, a blu-ray drive, and an operating system--all of which are included with the console. Not to mention the PS4 finally comes bundled with an HDMI cable. Yay!  By now you're up to at least $800 for a similarly spec'd PC. 

 

Anand has some good write-ups on the new hardware, even though he's resolutely a CPU champion. 

[Gorth]

Hmm... first thing that springs to mind when saying 'xbone'

 

 

Sort of relaxing watching this with a degree of detachment. Never been into the console stuff, much less the which is better stuff.

 

Lacking a bit on the drama side

[AwesomeOcelot]

I don't know about the Jaguar based CPU in the Xbox1-80 and PS4 being 25% the performance of an i5 but they are built for low power consumption, it definitely will be under 50% with a lot of metrics, especially as the i5 overclocks so easily and the new Haswell improvements. You've got to remember though, this is a microarchitecture designed to compete with a mobile i3 of ultrabooks and tablets, Sony and Microsoft have to aim for around 90w for the whole system, the GPU is going to be eating up a lot of that, a i5 gaming system is going to have 500-1000w PSU, the CPU could use over 90w. Also a more powerful CPU may make little difference paired with the GPU they're using.

 

Sony and Microsoft don't pay retail prices and they usually sell at a loss on launch. The custom nature and size factor do cost them more.

 

The 7870 is $200 on a good day, which would be half of the PS4's cost alone. Of course, you would also have to add a physical case to your system, plus input devices, a blu-ray drive, and an operating system--all of which are included with the console. Not to mention the PS4 finally comes bundled with an HDMI cable. Yay!  By now you're up to at least $800 for a similarly spec'd PC.

Radeon HD 7870 is 2.5 TFLOPS, the PS4 GPU is 1.8 TFLOPS, the Xbox1-80 GPU is 1.2 TFLOPS. You're looking more at a Radeon HD 7850 for the PS4.

Edited June 24, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[pmp10]

Direct comparison of computation power between Consoles and PCs is a pointless effort.

Not only are consoles designed to avoid the traditional bottlenecks that hamper PC performance but also allow more direct access to hardware that PC just won't do. Couple that with hardware standardization and you have a far better long-term result than any TFLOP count would indicate.

[alanschu]

Given that I'm gaming on an AMD Phenom II X4 965 and have no real issues CPU wise (my graphics card, however, is getting older, and some more memory would be useful), I am not too worried about the consoles in terms of their CPU performance for gaming.

Edited June 24, 2013 by alanschu

[Katphood]

Next-gen consoles are stupid cheap, for what you get. This is truly the apex in the history of price-to-performance.

The hardware isn't the only important factor here. By the time their library has grown to something semi interesting, their hardware will be pretty much outdated. And right now...well...it's like this and this VS. this and this. The only thing that has given the consoles such a long lifespan are the exclusive games, otherwise they would have long been in the dead book by now. With all that said, I still wouldn't mind having a PS4 once some good games are out for it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Astiaks

[alanschu]

Are you under the impression that the consoles wouldn't be successful had it not been for exclusive games?  In other words, people would just play on their PC instead?

[Nepenthe]

Don't you guys think people will buy the Xbox1 because only certain and newer console games will run on it, especially as time go's on? $500 is what PC fans can spend just on a Video Card and we buy it for the enhanced visual experience. So I don't think $500 is unreasonable for a persons improved gaming experience

 

 

I'm sure some people will, I bought an x360 because of Mass Effect back in the day. Let's say I have no regrets, but I seriously doubt there's going to be another game in the foreseeable future that would make me buy into a specific platform I wouldn't buy otherwise. Probably just old age, though.

 

 

 

You sales tax is 25%!? 

 

 

VAT, which is theoretically different but for a consumer just the same. We're at 24 %. Which means that days like this, when my gore tex parka slips past customs, are ones to celebrate. Also, we have to always pay VAT, even when buying from another EU country (so no no sales tax for the equivalent of out-of-state purchases), either at domestic rate or the shop's native (big stores that do a lot of business to a certain country/all countries like Amazon UK charge me VAT at the Finnish rate instead of the UK one).

 

Not really relate, but you can also feast your eyes on this: http://www.oecd.org/ctp/tax-policy/taxingwages.htm

 

And since that doesn't include sales tax/VAT etc. it's nowhere close to giving you a picture of the differences in total tax rate!

Edited June 24, 2013 by Nepenthe

[BruceVC]

 

Don't you guys think people will buy the Xbox1 because only certain and newer console games will run on it, especially as time go's on? $500 is what PC fans can spend just on a Video Card and we buy it for the enhanced visual experience. So I don't think $500 is unreasonable for a persons improved gaming experience

 

 

I'm sure some people will, I bought an x360 because of Mass Effect back in the day. Let's say I have no regrets, but I seriously doubt there's going to be another game in the foreseeable future that would make me buy into a specific platform I wouldn't buy otherwise. Probably just old age, though.

 

 

Hi Nep

 

I hear you but one should never make predictions around what we are prepared to spend on our gaming experience as you never know the impact the next type of technology or the next "must have" game will have on you. Imagine if the new Torment or PE turns out to be greatest game you ever played and offers you hundreds of hours of fulfilling entertainment. Suddenly the money you spent becomes irrelevant. I always like to say " you cannot equate a monetary value to a good time or experience" 

[ManifestedISO]

 

Next-gen consoles are stupid cheap, for what you get. This is truly the apex in the history of price-to-performance.

The hardware isn't the only important factor here. By the time their library has grown to something semi interesting, their hardware will be pretty much outdated. And right now...well...it's like this and this VS. this and this. The only thing that has given the consoles such a long lifespan are the exclusive games, otherwise they would have long been in the dead book by now. With all that said, I still wouldn't mind having a PS4 once some good games are out for it.

 

 

 

The dead book. I like it. It's where the movie, Children of Men, should stay and never come out.

 

Comparing new game availability versus old, or just depth of library ... Sony said they plan to allow PS4 players to stream a library of PS, PS2, and PS3 games to the new console. I find that very convenient, as long as I can download and store each game, available for offline play. Talking to you, The Last of Us. And the number of surprisingly good indie titles coming up, make the platform equal in appeal to my PC.  

 

I think direct comparison is plausible now, what with shared x86 going around. Customization changes comparison, but so does a driver update. Whatever the experience is post-pipeline should be able to be measured, objectively enough to satisfy my hardware nerd jones.  All I'm saying, is that it's a great time to be an enthusiast. Viable, durable, powerful choices are available.   

[alanschu]

I think library is overstated, personally.  I don't buy new computer hardware to play my already existing library unless my old computer literally stops working.

[Katphood]

Are you under the impression that the consoles wouldn't be successful had it not been for exclusive games?

No, but they would have sold a lot less.

[Nepenthe]

 

 

Don't you guys think people will buy the Xbox1 because only certain and newer console games will run on it, especially as time go's on? $500 is what PC fans can spend just on a Video Card and we buy it for the enhanced visual experience. So I don't think $500 is unreasonable for a persons improved gaming experience

 

 

I'm sure some people will, I bought an x360 because of Mass Effect back in the day. Let's say I have no regrets, but I seriously doubt there's going to be another game in the foreseeable future that would make me buy into a specific platform I wouldn't buy otherwise. Probably just old age, though.

 

 

Hi Nep

 

I hear you but one should never make predictions around what we are prepared to spend on our gaming experience as you never know the impact the next type of technology or the next "must have" game will have on you. Imagine if the new Torment or PE turns out to be greatest game you ever played and offers you hundreds of hours of fulfilling entertainment. Suddenly the money you spent becomes irrelevant. I always like to say " you cannot equate a monetary value to a good time or experience" 

 

 

Is this the point where I admit that I've never actually played Torment. Well, for longer than one evening. The last two times I've installed it, no amount of windows acrobatics has made it work...

 

You'll notice I was careful enough to not say never, but I really can't see myself buying Microsoft's contraption at any cost or for any reason- Part of it is of course that I'm looking at a lifestyle change which will involve a lot less couch gaming than until now.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Don't you guys think people will buy the Xbox1 because only certain and newer console games will run on it, especially as time go's on? $500 is what PC fans can spend just on a Video Card and we buy it for the enhanced visual experience. So I don't think $500 is unreasonable for a persons improved gaming experience

 

 

I'm sure some people will, I bought an x360 because of Mass Effect back in the day. Let's say I have no regrets, but I seriously doubt there's going to be another game in the foreseeable future that would make me buy into a specific platform I wouldn't buy otherwise. Probably just old age, though.

 

 

Hi Nep

 

I hear you but one should never make predictions around what we are prepared to spend on our gaming experience as you never know the impact the next type of technology or the next "must have" game will have on you. Imagine if the new Torment or PE turns out to be greatest game you ever played and offers you hundreds of hours of fulfilling entertainment. Suddenly the money you spent becomes irrelevant. I always like to say " you cannot equate a monetary value to a good time or experience" 

 

 

Is this the point where I admit that I've never actually played Torment. Well, for longer than one evening. The last two times I've installed it, no amount of windows acrobatics has made it work...

 

You'll notice I was careful enough to not say never, but I really can't see myself buying Microsoft's contraption at any cost or for any reason- Part of it is of course that I'm looking at a lifestyle change which will involve a lot less couch gaming than until now.

 

 

Lifestyle changes are always a good thing, well only if they are positive

 

If you don't mind me asking what are you going to be changing about your lifestyle?

[alanschu]

 

Are you under the impression that the consoles wouldn't be successful had it not been for exclusive games?

No, but they would have sold a lot less.

 

 

Why do you say that?

 

As a PC gamer myself, I'd still expect the consoles to make up a larger part of the pie even if all games made are made for PC as well.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Are you under the impression that the consoles wouldn't be successful had it not been for exclusive games?

No, but they would have sold a lot less.

 

 

Why do you say that?

 

As a PC gamer myself, I'd still expect the consoles to make up a larger part of the pie even if all games made are made for PC as well.

 

 

Alan I'm a little confused by your point, are you saying you don't believe that the quality and number  of console games available are a reason that people would invest in one?

[alanschu]

It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

 

People buy consoles because that's where the games are.

Developers make for consoles because that's where the players are.

 

If, overnight, suddenly all games were available for all platforms, I don't think we'd see consoles suddenly selling a whole lot less.

 

I feel, for many gamers however, that the console is their preferred platform, even if they also own a gaming capable PC.

[BruceVC]

It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

 

People buy consoles because that's where the games are.

Developers make for consoles because that's where the players are.

 

If, overnight, suddenly all games were available for all platforms, I don't think we'd see consoles suddenly selling a whole lot less.

 

I feel, for many gamers however, that the console is their preferred platform, even if they also own a gaming capable PC.

 

Okay I see what you mean. Your point is around the console simply being the choice of gaming platform

[Nepenthe]

 

 

 

 

Don't you guys think people will buy the Xbox1 because only certain and newer console games will run on it, especially as time go's on? $500 is what PC fans can spend just on a Video Card and we buy it for the enhanced visual experience. So I don't think $500 is unreasonable for a persons improved gaming experience

 

 

I'm sure some people will, I bought an x360 because of Mass Effect back in the day. Let's say I have no regrets, but I seriously doubt there's going to be another game in the foreseeable future that would make me buy into a specific platform I wouldn't buy otherwise. Probably just old age, though.

 

 

Hi Nep

 

I hear you but one should never make predictions around what we are prepared to spend on our gaming experience as you never know the impact the next type of technology or the next "must have" game will have on you. Imagine if the new Torment or PE turns out to be greatest game you ever played and offers you hundreds of hours of fulfilling entertainment. Suddenly the money you spent becomes irrelevant. I always like to say " you cannot equate a monetary value to a good time or experience" 

 

 

Is this the point where I admit that I've never actually played Torment. Well, for longer than one evening. The last two times I've installed it, no amount of windows acrobatics has made it work...

 

You'll notice I was careful enough to not say never, but I really can't see myself buying Microsoft's contraption at any cost or for any reason- Part of it is of course that I'm looking at a lifestyle change which will involve a lot less couch gaming than until now.

 

 

Lifestyle changes are always a good thing, well only if they are positive

 

If you don't mind me asking what are you going to be changing about your lifestyle?

 

 

Hopefully enough.