Racism, sexism & bigotry

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

 

Says the straight white cis male.

 

I don't recall ever telling you in this thread either my race, my sex or my financial status.

 

But let's for a second assume you are right. So what?

That doesn't make you right.

 

I don't think you are even aware what the word "institutionalized" means. Because quite frankly, it's the opposite. It's the minorites and spaceial groups that are protected by the state (and other institutions) to an often redicolous degree.

 

So please, tell me how this institutionalized racism is supposed to work when the state is enforcing Political Correctness with the zeal religious fanatics could envy.

 

 

Oh Enlightened Master, please, tell me how institutional racism is totally not a thing.

Edited May 20, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[PrimeJunta]

Sorry, Barthomuk. "Privilege" is a word that describes a phenomenon. It is not an explanation of the phenomenon. The phenomenon itself is an objective reality. Whites and blacks do get treated differently, even when all other things are equal.

 

For example, write a job application and send it to 100 companies. Write your name as Jamilah Brown on one, and Timothy McMillan on the other, with all qualifications otherwise identical. Then count how many of the companies invited you to a job interview. This experiment has been made lots and lots of times, and the white-male sounding name will get more invitations for interviews than the black-female sounding name.

[mcmanusaur]

Another sexism thread derailed into the realm of "reverse sexism"... I'm quite skeptical the thread will return back on-topic so perhaps the thread has exhausted its usefulness.

[PrimeJunta]

But of course. It's far easier than actually questioning your preconceptions after all.

It's the default human response when hearign something that doesn't mesh well with his worldview.

Nah. It's just that I've heard opinions like yours many, many, many times, and never once from anyone who isn't white. There are non-whites who subscribe to the same ideological worldview as you, mind (Steele much?) but they tend to express it noticeably differently. So it would take more than a simple assertion from you to convince me that you are, in fact, not a white male first-worlder. Present sufficient evidence -- for example, demonstrate that you understand something of what it's like to be a non-white non-male non-first-worlder -- and I'm certainly open to changing my mind.

 

So you want to establish equality by being unequal?

 

Note that I am talking strictly about behavior, not welfare, so that strawmen can go die in a fire.

If you mean, do I think that people should watch their behavior differently depending on where they stand in the power structure, then yeah, I do think that. A white making a joke at the expense of blacks is reinforcing those power structures; a black making a joke at the expense of whites isn't. Ergo, whites should be more careful about making jokes at the expense of blacks than vice versa.

 

You can go ahead and live convinced in some "white guilt" if it makes you feel better tough.

I don't feel guilty about being white at all. It's not something I can change. However, I try to be mindful about it and the impact it has on what I do and say.

 

Counter question - why des it even matter?

It's not like there is some global fixed supply of "that stuff"  that has to be balanced.

Are you familiar with the notion of microaggressions, and the cumulative psychological effect they have on people?

 

You mentioned fat white men earlier. Overweight people get to endure a lot of microaggressions all the time. If you know one – or happen to be one – perhaps you'll have an idea of how nasty that can feel. I'm not talking about overtly hostile stuff like people pointing and laughing; it's daily small indignities. Things like racism and sexism are quite similar.

 

 

"Hmmm..I made 3 jokes about Jews today. That means I have to make 3 about blacks and 3 about white. Oh, and 1 about Irish."

Why would you need to make any jokes about Jews and blacks? Isn't that best left to Jews and blacks? Then we can all laugh about them together.

[Merlkir]

Another sexism thread derailed into the realm of "reverse sexism"... I'm quite skeptical the thread will return back on-topic so perhaps the thread has exhausted its usefulness.

Because there are kinds of sexism not worthy of discussion, so much so we have to put them in quotes? :D Sure.

 

ad Microwhatevers:

 

 

The neutrality of this article is disputed.

 

Not surprised.

 

 

Some other types of microaggressions that have been identified^[9] include Colorblindness (e.g., "I don't think of you as Black. You are just a normal person")

 

Well, **** me sideways.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Merlkir

[PrimeJunta]

@Merikir, are you familiar with the notion of derailing? It's also know as the "what about the menz" gambit.

 

Thing is, most of the time we assume white straight male as the default. If you're having a discussion about anything that's not strictly about white straight males in an open forum, it won't take long before someone starts whining that the discussion isn't about white straight males. Sexism? "Oh, what about reverse sexism." Racism? "A black guy called me a mean name once." I.e., if it's not about white straight male me, it doesn't matter. Privilege!

 

It's kinda ironic that even here most of us talking on all sides of the issue are white straight males. Nobody hogs the floor like us. Privilege!

[PrimeJunta]

OT: How would you abuse privilege? (ie the fact something is NOT happening to you) The concept of Straight White Male Privilege is often used to put the privileged demons in line.

Oh, lots of ways. Cut a woman off in conversation. Change the subject in a discussion from racism to "reverse racism." Tell a joke that paints Roma as thieving gypsies and assume that everyone laughs. Act all offended if someone tells you it was in poor taste. Move a job application from the "invite to interview" pile to "reject" pile because you just have an 'off' feeling about it and it has nothing to do with the fact that the name on it said Jamilah Brown. And so on and so forth.

 

You are a straight white male, you should feel bad, because everyone else is living harder lives than you do.

Whoo, this canard does come up a lot. No, there is no point in feeling bad about being a straight white male. Feeling guilty about being called out for abusing your straight white male privilege is another matter.

 

That's all fine, I don't mind people telling me to check my privilege (usually it means they're out of arguments). As you say, everyone is being privileged sometimes. Thanks to affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws (themselves often rather discriminative), the prevalence of straight while male privilege seems to be shifting somewhat.

Very, very, very, VERY slowly, and at highly inequal rates in different parts of the world. I'm also not sure how much good many of those laws are doing; there are a few that are obviously necessary (e.g. laws that forbid business owners from discriminating in hiring or regarding their customers based on race, sexual orientation, or religion), whereas others I find a lot more dubious; laws about 'hate speech' only seem to lead to circumlocutions and endless pointless debate about what 'counts' as hate speech.

[Merlkir]

Hey, it wasn't me who defined racism as "majority being mean to minorities" (ie. excluding whites entirely), or separated racism into normal racism (ie. whites on everyone) and the mocked and nonexistent "reverse racism".

 

So, excuuuse me, Princess, for derailing your discussion, which seems to be exactly ALL about straight white men.

 

 

Very, very, very, VERY slowly, and at highly inequal rates in different parts of the world. I'm also not sure how much good many of those laws are doing; there are a few that are obviously necessary (e.g. laws that forbid business owners from discriminating in hiring or regarding their customers based on race, sexual orientation, or religion), whereas others I find a lot more dubious; laws about 'hate speech' only seem to lead to circumlocutions and endless pointless debate about what 'counts' as hate speech.

 

I think a study into the effects of such laws would be quite interesting. My suspicion is that they only reinforce animosity towards these groups.

 

Then again, I think "hate speech" laws are absolute nonsense and should not exist. Employers should also be able to hire or fire whomever they want. 

Edited May 20, 2013 by Merlkir

[PrimeJunta]

Says the white, stra

 

 

Employers should also be able to hire or fire whomever they want. 

 

Says someone belonging to a gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation least likely to ever experience the negatives of such an arrangement.

[Auxilius]

Another sexism thread derailed into the realm of "reverse sexism"... I'm quite skeptical the thread will return back on-topic so perhaps the thread has exhausted its usefulness.

Yeah, we are in finger-pointing realm now.

I'm out.

[Merlkir]

Says the white, stra

 

 

Employers should also be able to hire or fire whomever they want. 

 

Says someone belonging to a gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation least likely to ever experience the negatives of such an arrangement.

 

Yep. I'm happily self-employed, thank you very much. Once again, a response telling me my opinion and argument do not matter, because of the colour of my skin and sex.

 

Instead of educating and changing the **** (which is hard, I know), you'd rather take away another bit of freedom from everyone. Yes, that'll work, for sure.

 

(I'm not a libertarian, so don't mistake my use of the word freedom for political preference. But I do agree this type of law is pretty horrible.)

[Lurky]

ITT people have been scolded by the Internet/society/other people to have a little more empathy for their fellow human beings, and are so mad that unconsiderate behavior has unwanted consequences that they have to hijack perfectly civil conversations to unleash their butthurt

 

We're not in kindergarten anymore, guys. Not all is about you. We weren't even talking about bigotry in the real world, here.

 

In any case, as has been stated before, the setting of PE likely won't have real world sexism or racism. It'll probably have fictional bigotry for orlans, but as long as their playthroughs are as fun to play as the others, there shouldn't be much of a problem here. That is the conclusion of this thread, right?

 

Why am I asking. This thread probably won't have more fruitful discussion than that, anyway

[TrashMan]

I'm not making any value judgment about "white" individuals. "White" does equal "privileged," though. That's not insulting. It's simply a fact.

 

 

Nope.

 

 

 

Because I'm white, male, and straight, I never encounter any number of problems that non-white, non-male, non-straight people do on a daily basis. For example I've never been pulled over by the cops simply because I 'look suspicious,' my boss doesn't talk past me to one of my coworkers when asking about the status of that project, and if I fall ill, my wife will automatically be treated next of kin, to pick three real-life examples.

 

Utterly stupid examples.

 

You are pulled over if you look suspicious, but oyu cna look suspicious regardless of skin color.

[TrashMan]

 

Oh Enlightened Master, please, tell me how institutional racism is totally not a thing.

 

 

My respose

[TrashMan]

 

If you mean, do I think that people should watch their behavior differently depending on where they stand in the power structure, then yeah, I do think that. A white making a joke at the expense of blacks is reinforcing those power structures; a black making a joke at the expense of whites isn't. Ergo, whites should be more careful about making jokes at the expense of blacks than vice versa.

 

Are you familiar with the notion of microaggressions, and the cumulative psychological effect they have on people?

 

You mentioned fat white men earlier. Overweight people get to endure a lot of microaggressions all the time. If you know one – or happen to be one – perhaps you'll have an idea of how nasty that can feel. I'm not talking about overtly hostile stuff like people pointing and laughing; it's daily small indignities. Things like racism and sexism are quite similar.

 

 

Why would you need to make any jokes about Jews and blacks? Isn't that best left to Jews and blacks? Then we can all laugh about them together.

 

 

 

A) Being white makes no difference. You shouldn't be paying more attention to what you're saying just because you're white. That is just stupid.

 

B) Are you aware that I label what you are doing as microagression? Are you aware that if ANY action has impact then such double-standards alos have a negative impact, despite your protests that it's all i nthe name of justice and fairness. This apologist, ass-kissing behavior might actually do more harm than good.

 

C) You live with it like everyone else. I'm sorry, but people don't have the right to NOT be insulted or angry. You are basicly forming a thought-police.

 

D) Why wouldn't I want to tell jokes about them? I make fun of everyone and everything else (myself  and God included), so why the heck should they be exempt like some sacred cow?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Oh Enlightened Master, please, tell me how institutional racism is totally not a thing.

 

 

My respose

 

 

I'm awestruck by this extremely well-thought-out, intelligently argued answer. Not to mention your (usual) impeccable spelling.

[Nonek]

Wh...what the devil happened here?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Wh...what the devil happened here?

 

Butthurt was unleashed in copious quantities.

 

Bottom line: I don't feel even partially guilty about derailing the thread. These questions were already answered in at least three different topics already; why have another?

Edited May 20, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gfted1]

Rolf, stay classy.

 

There are no topic limits. If posters feel that they have already spread their opinions on other threads then they can always take the opportunity to not post in this one.

[PrimeJunta]

A) Being white makes no difference.

You're right, it doesn't. Being black, brown, or yellow does though. That's the problem.

 

You shouldn't be paying more attention to what you're saying just because you're white. That is just stupid.

I agree. You shouldn't. What you should be doing, though, is taking into account the point of view of whoever is speaking. We're rather self-interested creatures, you know. If a member of a given group is saying something that strongly favors members of that group, it's reasonable to consider that the two things may be related.

 

B) Are you aware that I label what you are doing as microagression?

I am now, since you said so. Please explain: what part of what I'm saying constitutes a microaggression?

 

Are you aware that if ANY action has impact then such double-standards alos have a negative impact, despite your protests that it's all i nthe name of justice and fairness. This apologist, ass-kissing behavior might actually do more harm than good.

Yes, I am aware of that possibility. I'm also aware of the possibility that it might help. Look, you guys were whining about your "white knights" for a quite a while here before anyone spoke up. You clearly don't enjoy that being challenged much. That's a form of privilege too.

 

Whose ass am I kissing, exactly, by the way?

 

C) You live with it like everyone else. I'm sorry, but people don't have the right to NOT be insulted or angry. You are basicly forming a thought-police.

I'm not saying people don't have the right NOT to be insulted or angry. Hell, if people didn't have the right to be angry, I'd never get out of jail. Does my stating my disagreement with you somehow infringe on your rights to be insulted or angry?

 

D) Why wouldn't I want to tell jokes about them? I make fun of everyone and everything else (myself  and God included), so why the heck should they be exempt like some sacred cow?

Uh... I dunno. Most people don't actually enjoy going out of their way to hurt people's feelings, as a general rule. Personally, I consider people who derive enjoyment out of doing that bullies, and I don't care much for them. How about you?

Edited May 20, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Failion]

They never elaborated in how souls is going to work in this game. Is practically every living thing going to have nameless ones wisdom? Or is souls going to play out like the force in star wars. Where some in life are more able to call on their soul power.

[Gfted1]

As far as I remember, all players and NPC's have a soul. Im not sure if that carries over to the bestiary.

[Elerond]

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60438-update-5-souls-technology-and-adventuring-companies/

 

 

Souls

As we hinted at in our pitch videos, souls are A Big Deal in Project Eternity's world. The mortal world has not unlocked all of the secrets of how souls "work" and differing schools of metaphysical philosophy can be found in virtually every culture. What is known is that sapient souls move through an endless cycle of waking life and purgatorial slumber among the gods. Often this slumber lasts for years of "real" time, but occasionally it is brief, with a soul immediately moving on to a new life.

Far from being a flawless process, souls are subject to "fracturing" over generations, transforming in myriad ways, and not quite... working right. Some cultures and individuals place a high value on "strong" souls, souls with a "pure" lineage, "awakened" souls that remember past lives, "traveled" souls that have drifted through the divine realms, or those that co-exist with other souls in one body. However, the opposite is also true, resulting in negative discrimination and sometimes outright violence.

Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them.

Thinkers, spiritualists, and scientists of the world have theorized for thousands of years about the nature and purpose of this process, but others have turned to prayer for answer. Rather than illuminate the presumed higher purpose of this cycle, the gods have obfuscated the truth, at times spreading cosmological lies, pitting believers and empowered chosen agents against each other, and tacitly approving the prejudices of their followers to maintain power.

Whatever the fundamental nature of mortal souls is, the people of the world accept the reality of what they have observed: that all mortal bodies contain perceptible energy bound to the individual, and that once they die, their energy will move forward in the eternal cycle that they are all a part of -- that as far as they know, they have always been a part of.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61533-update-24-less-than-30-hours-to-go-life-and-death-and-audio-cd-soundtrack/

A Lottery of Souls
The world belongs to mortals. As time has progressed, mortals have lifted themselves out of ignorance and into ages of increased self-awareness, harnessing the power of their own souls to amazing effect. So... why worship the gods, anyway? For many mortals, worship is a matter of respect and tradition. They consider their gods (or, in some cases, all gods) to be their creators. They follow the guidelines of religion because history tells them that the gods have punished individuals -- and entire nations -- for ancient episodes of religious disrespect and dismissal.

For others, religious worship is a matter of karmic self-interest. Often, people believe that if an individual's soul arrives in the realm of a pleased god, the god will place that soul into the body of someone who will have a good life. To such believers, choosing to not worship or is to risk spiritual confusion and aimlessness in the afterlife. They speculate that the faithless are entered into a "lottery of souls" from which many will wind up no better -- or much worse -- than they did in their last life. Some of the same faiths also believe that religious apostasy or lax observance is a cause of soul splintering upon death, which many consider to be an even worse fate.

So all living people at least have souls but all souls aren't equal in how much power invidual can conjure from it.

[JFSOCC]

I'm on the fence, I like the problems I face to be different from every day drudgery. I like multi-culturalism and equal opportunity.

That doesn't mean the world has to be a fair and equal utopia. just, if you have bigotry,, have it be slightly different.

 

maybe some people hate godlike

perhaps those who have strong souls have those who hate them too.

 

Mostly I think it would be fantastic to see religious conflict.

[TrashMan]

 

I'm awestruck by this extremely well-thought-out, intelligently argued answer. Not to mention your (usual) impeccable spelling.

 

 

OH excuseeeee me princes-..  I mean, Glorious Master of Mankind.

 

Not all of us mortals are blessed with english being their native language or the power to remain fully focused and concetrated when typing 24/7, regardless what they are doing.

Truly my spelling mistake is a crime without equal and I must flog myself to death in shame. If only I could come up with such masterfull, well-thought out responses like attacking someone elses spelling!

Truly  the highest point of internet debating that will never be surpassed.

 

And linking random internet articles! A master-stroke. It's not like the internet is full of all kinds of articles and counter-articles on all manenrs of sensitive issues (like global warming). Surely if I were to link an internet article on global warming, I would definatley prove my point to everyone beyond a shadow of doubt.