Food and resting.

[amarok]

I really would like to see a need for food in the game, but in some non intrusive way. Mostly because need for food forces the player to act like he would in a real world - concerning resting. A six man party which dives into a dungeon will have to take an amount of food with them, which probably wont last for weeks and thereby naturally limit the ability to rest and heal (being able to spam rest almost everywhere was one of the few things which i consider broken in the IE games). Long dungeons could provide the player with some amount of conserved food or a fast travel option out of the dungeon so he can refill without too much backtracking, but the party always would have to carefully consider the need to rest.

The easiest way would be to implement two supply resources (food and water) which are consumed upon resting. Without sufficient food/water the party wont recover through resting and eventually lose hit points. A choosable amout of water can be refilled in wells or on river banks, food can be bought or produced through character skills ("hunting" skill grants the possibility to make food out of dead animals, "foraging" skill will lower the need for food when resting outside because the characters are able to find some fruits and mushrooms near the resting area).

 

 

Are there any plans to add food to the game?

 

Edited April 26, 2013 by amarok

[Sensuki]

During the KS campaign I think it was Tim who said there'd be food in the game during the Reddit Q&A. It would be cool if food and water were built into the resting mechanic.

[Micamo]

The problem with survival mechanics is in order for them to work well the game's pacing has to walk in complete lockstep with them. If the cycle of food acquisition/depletion isn't done very carefully, it becomes nothing but an immersion-breaking pain in the ass at worst (New Vegas hardcore mode in the first few levels) and a non-issue the player never thinks about at best (Hardcore mode after the player is swimming in more caps than they could ever possibly spend). Honestly, it seems like an awful lot of work where a billion and a half things can go wrong just to add something that's not even thematically appropriate. If this were Dark Sun or something I could see it being a worthwhile addition, but the Dyrwood does not seem like the right place for this. It'd be simulation for simulation's sake.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Micamo

[Dream]

I really would like to see a need for food in the game, but in some non intrusive way.  

 

 

That statement contradicts itself.

[spudud]

I think this sort of mechanic makes more sense in games with survival themed settings(FO:NV/Wasteland), where resources are scarce and gathering food and water is a significant economic burden. There is also the toxicity of the food and water to worry about or what diseases it may carry adding another layer to the mechanic. Since none of these problems exist in the P:E setting, as far as we know, it can become tiresome to stop every 15-20 minutes to eat and drink just so you hp doesn't fall or your stats don't take a hit. Not to mention having to go into town to buy it every time you run out.

Edited April 27, 2013 by spudud

[Ywerion]

It is definitely nice mechanic in different games (STALKER comes in mind, even though it wasn't perfect there), but I don't see much use for it in PE.

[Nonek]

Hopefully vittles are implemented, always good to have as many features in game as possible. We've had many long years of feature stripping and streamlining, it doesn't do much but make the gameworld less believable. I'd never consider playing New Vegas on anything but hardcore, and ideally with Mr Sawyers mod installed. Great feature, and a nice tip of the hat to the player characters humanity, and therefore frailty.

[Lephys]

There are 2 main ways in which to ensure something like food & rest is well-implemented:

 

1) Abstract it enough to work with the gameplay mechanics so it isn't reduced to a detriment-avoiding-chore.

2) Incorporate it into the reactivity of the world.

 

I would say a vast majority of the problems with the implementations of such things in existing games is that you've only got 2 states: The stat-penalties-because-you-didn't-use-an-inventory-item-every-5-minutes state, and the completely-neutral-because-you-used-an-inventory-item-every-5-minutes state. Nobody likes detriment juggling when there's not even a positive to be had (or much of one).

 

And there are VERY simple abstractions you can use, such as "Your characters automatically eat when they need to, and you only need to keep rations on-hand." Along with, perhaps, an easy way of managing which rations are the preferred "Eat this first" ones, etc., instead of just treating them like 50 random different items in an inventory and having to drag them into an ammo spot or something.

 

Your character selecting what to eat when he needs to eat requires so little brain power, it should never be turned into an unintuitive system in the player's interface.

 

We can compare a food system to combat. Obviously, if you outfit your party with sticks and mud, you're going to make even simpler combat encounters that much more troublesome. But, it's pretty easy to outfit them with standard arms and armor, and have a moderately untricky time of things. Then, you'll have those encounters that are quite difficult, and they can be made less difficult with even MORE attention to detail and micromanagement (changing out armor/weapon sets for different enemy types, applying tactical compensation every 5 seconds in the battle, etc.).

 

It should work similarly to that, in general. The goal isn't to simulate the process of eating food, just like a game doesn't try to simulate the process of donning armor.

 

Off the top of my head, maybe having a good enough meal should have the potential to grant benefits that take several days to fade (But only ever stack back to the initial maximum bonus). In most games, the best you get from food is like a buff/potion duration. "For 6 hours, you have additional strength." I think it would be great if your taking the time to acquire high quality food items instead of general/mediocre ones would grand you something like +3 Constitution, initially, which would then fall to +2 after 8 hours, then +1 after another 8, then finally completely fade. Instead of "Okay, we're about to enter this cave. QUICK, EAT SOME FOOD FOR BONUSES!"

 

I think that's something that makes it feel like a chore, too. Because, other things (like potions and buffs) already grant you similar bonuses, so it starts to feel redundant. But then, when you think "I'll just stick to potions and buffs, and not worry about food," you start getting all the "you didn't spend enough time worrying about food" detriments. So, it becomes something that you HAVE to do, but that isn't actually benefitting you simply because it's not an interesting/different enough mechanic from other benefit-management systems in the game.

 

TL;DR -- NARM narm narm!!!

[rjshae]

I sincerely hope not. This isn't a wasteland survival game so adding food and water is just a bookkeeping exercise. I'd rather see it abstracted.

[Micamo]

I think that's something that makes it feel like a chore, too. Because, other things (like potions and buffs) already grant you similar bonuses, so it starts to feel redundant. But then, when you think "I'll just stick to potions and buffs, and not worry about food," you start getting all the "you didn't spend enough time worrying about food" detriments. So, it becomes something that you HAVE to do, but that isn't actually benefitting you simply because it's not an interesting/different enough mechanic from other benefit-management systems in the game.

 

If you want an example of a game where survival mechanics actually make the game better, Don't Starve is a great one. The premise of the game is that you're stranded alone in a randomly generated wilderness and you see how long it takes for you to die. The hunger system does a lot of things right, but I think the most important aspect of it is that to get food, you have to expose yourself to risk. In a permadeath game. The player then has to choose how much risk, or rather, what types of risks, to expose themselves to. The tensest parts of playing the game are when you have to make choices like: It's getting late and you're running low on food: You've got enough food in your belly to make it through the night but two bad days like this in a row will kill you. Do you go home and hope for better luck tomorrow, or do you keep foraging and risk getting stuck out away from camp at night?

[nikolokolus]

Any good RPG needs its share of ten foot poles, spikes, rope and yes, iron rations.  It would be nice to buy days or weeks of party food and have that slowly deplete over time with the need to replenish supplies occasionally through purchase or foraging.  Maybe this give the ranger, barbarian or druid something else to be useful for?

 

It shouldn't be onerous and a giant chore, but it should be a small money sink and something that has to be managed ... or maybe this should be reserved for expert mode?

Edited April 28, 2013 by nikolokolus

[Nonek]

I can see the option of making it only apply to the more realistic modes as an appealing one, especially to the more casual crowd. I thought Betrayal at Krondor handled rations well, they were consumed at midday (as I remember) and so long as one had them in inventory this was automatic. A nice little touch however was that rations could be tampered with or spoiled, which was clearly stated in the item description, and once they were consumed the characters became sick or poisoned. A nice method of making the character pay attention, and read Mr Halford's well written descriptions.

 

There were also goodwives who would pack you up a few days rations as a gift, tasks to poison the secret rations of an invading army, wells where you could refill your waterskins, and inns who would gladly sell passing travellers rations for the hard road ahead. It was really no bother, more a delight to see such a little thing brought to life. After all the getting of vittles was a pressing concern for humanity throughout history, especially in the age that Eternity represents, and no character would take it for granted as we do in the first world. Man cannot live on prayer alone.

[Bradr]

I don't mind the idea of food being a part of the game.  

 

But it would have to be implemented in a way that food hinders gameplay when not consumed, but doesn't necessarily break the game when neglected.  And when it does hinder gameplay, it is because it has been neglected for a long time.

 

I would enjoy a system where characters have a sustenance rating.  Probably something like Full, Satiated, Hungry, Starving.  Full might get a minor stat bonus and last an hour.  Satiated has no penalties/bonuses and lasts 24 hours.  When hungry, your character does not heal HP naturally when resting and lasts several days, maybe a week.  And finally starving occurs after nearly a week and only then does your character actually begin losing HP - and maybe something like nonlethal damage.  When you consume food your hunger rating goes up, and your penalties disappear.  Food items have different values - i.e. a full meal vs an iron ration vs an apple.  And lastly, there would be an inventory slot for food.  Almost a queue like system, similar to the quiver in IE games.  I'd want 5-7 slots.  You could designate the particular character's "ration", which would indicate how often the character automatically eats one of their food items.  And the food item in the leftmost box would be consumed first, then the next item, etc.  After this system is set up, and the character has their food, it wouldn't take much maintenance.  And it would allow players to have food choices that have consequences.  But if a player wanted to neglect the system, just make sure every player has rations in their slots, set it to eat every other day, and you could go weeks of game time without worrying about it - but character would not heal naturally either.  Add in some foraging and gathering perks, and the system could be fun, manageable, and not particularly obtrusive.

 

On another note on food, I would like to see Inns and Taverns implemented with more interactivity.  In the old IE games, you could get a few qualities of room, and order some different types of booze to get your party drunk.  I would like to see room choices actually open up scenarios, such as encounters and party dialogue.   Maybe your party's monk praises your austerity when you select a basic room over a high end room for the evening.  Maybe your overbearding paladin can't stand the thought of not having his own room, and grumbles about it.  Your dwarf opens into a dialogue that raises his disposition because you bought him his favorite firebrand and he got drunk off it.  You purchase a feast for the whole party, and you get a large dialogue where all the party interacts and all of their dispositions towards you and each other increase. Your party choses not to lock, ward, and alarm the inn door to their room and is caught off guard by thieves or assassins.  Little touches like this can bring the taverns alive.

[Nonek]

Brilliant ideas, love the notion of such a mundane locale as the cliche'd adventurers tavern suddenly becoming an engaging and reactive envitroment.

[Wombat]

Not sure about this.  Somehow, ration management in this kind of game didn't work well for me.  Even in PnP games, I felt it's just one of the excuses for GMs to keep the players hungry for money.  Indeed, I don't play FONV without both hardcore and Sawyer mod but, with the fast travel, it doesn't seem to work well compared with something like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (Despite of being open world setting, the zone made me feel trapped in a suffocating closed environment).  The best place for them is, in my experience, Dead Money dlc and some heavily irradiated vaults.  Even I chose to explore, instead of resorting to fast travel, in normal areas, it felt like a routine task rather than a life-threatening factor.

 

Also, different from settings where the player characters are more humane, in IE games, they are "destined to" be "demigods".  In such setting, I wonder if ration management works well.  In less "fantastic" settings such as Darklands, it tends to work better but, IMO, the most impressive part of the management aspect of the game is its take on religions.

 

So, all in all, I like management elements with "meaningful" contexts but I think they are not always successful in letting the players feel immersed in the worlds once they are accustomed to deal with them.

 

That said, I'd like to see some GM-like context-sensitive narrations seen in older games, which would help the players immerse themselves into the given setting.

[Kjaamor]

The problem with survival mechanics is in order for them to work well the game's pacing has to walk in complete lockstep with them. If the cycle of food acquisition/depletion isn't done very carefully, it becomes nothing but an immersion-breaking pain in the ass at worst (New Vegas hardcore mode in the first few levels) and a non-issue the player never thinks about at best (Hardcore mode after the player is swimming in more caps than they could ever possibly spend). Honestly, it seems like an awful lot of work where a billion and a half things can go wrong just to add something that's not even thematically appropriate. If this were Dark Sun or something I could see it being a worthwhile addition, but the Dyrwood does not seem like the right place for this. It'd be simulation for simulation's sake.

 

Pretty much that.

 

The only thing I would offer on the food front is that for a mechanic that concerns me, it was handled very well in Mount and Blade. The system there, in a nutshell, was that having varying food types improved the morale of your troops. Most of my inventory was full of different food, and appropriate shopping was actually quite an enjoyable experience. However, if you ran out of food, your troops didn't die, they just didn't get any bonuses. It made it necessary for difficult battles but not an insta-kill trap.

 

Which is another issue with the food system which P:E will undoubtedly wish to avoid - poor management has the potential to kill you several save files back, and if, for whatever reason, you use a single save file, could potentially leave you having to give up half-way through the game.

 

Based on the information so far, I think this is exactly the sort of thing that will be part of the optional rules at the start of the game.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It worked well in a persistent world I played on for NWN1. It was also a hardcore rules server, where it was more accurately described as "surviving" rather than playing. Food mechanics are best served (ha) in a game where random harrowing adventures of little plot significance are periodically approached from a familiar and safe location. Narrative driven games don't benefit a great deal from it, so I doubt it will be useful in Project: Eternity.

[TrashMan]

The idea that the game has to be "Wasteland survival" to have food is redicolous.

 

 

Is this a living, breathing world you are thrust in?

does food have an impact on traveling and dungeon exploring? Yes? Then it belongs. Period.

[Jarmo]

I quite almost like the way it's done in Mount & Blade, you have some foodstuffs in storage and they are consumed as time passes. No bother as long as you keep decent stock. In PE terms, it'd just be stuff in the bigger inventory, basically meaning resting or otherwise spending time costs an amount of money, no matter whether you rest in an inn or use your own foodstores.

[nikolokolus]

I quite almost like the way it's done in Mount & Blade, you have some foodstuffs in storage and they are consumed as time passes. No bother as long as you keep decent stock. In PE terms, it'd just be stuff in the bigger inventory, basically meaning resting or otherwise spending time costs an amount of money, no matter whether you rest in an inn or use your own foodstores.

 

Precisely, it's just a money sink and a resource management game mechanic; no different from healing potions, limited capacity ammunition, spells-per-day, or gear with a wear and tear condtition.

 

It doesn't have to be burdensome and in fact I think it could be kind of fun if done well.

[Dream]

The idea that the game has to be "Wasteland survival" to have food is redicolous.

 

 

Is this a living, breathing world you are thrust in?

does food have an impact on traveling and dungeon exploring? Yes? Then it belongs. Period.

By that logic they should add in mechanics for taking a dump as well. Once a day you have to take a **** and if you don't have any TP you have to either risk infection or chance it with a leaf. If you choose the leaf then you again run the risk of getting a rash (unless you have a high outdoorsy/****ting skill).

 

So fun.

[Amentep]

I suppose its really what level of micromanagement you want.

 

But I don't generally find food / water mechanics fun.  I can't think of a game where I felt they added anything but annoyance to me as the player*.  There was nothing more fun back in the day getting to a point where -

• you couldn't continue unless you took a 7 day trek across the dessert
• you only had food to last 2 days and would starve to death after 5
• you didn't have the money to buy more food
• the monsters in the area wouldn't reset so you could kill them for more random gold drops unless you left the area which was a 7 day trek across the dessert...

That may be a slight exaggeration, but that's certainly what it FELT like.  To me it felt like an excuse to pay X amount of money, force the player back to towns and have them press the "eat" button every so often.  Much like defecation or urination I don't see the appeal in modelling it in the game.**

 

*note: as I avoid this mechanic as much as possible, I've not seen its implementation in games where it was optional.

**I'd actually drop sleeping from the game as well if it weren't for the fact I like the idea of random encounters while camping.

[Nonek]

Personally I would abstract the use of water closets as a matter of taste, and have the daily constitutional be a part of the resting mechanic, though I would have toilets and bathrooms in the game world. Having a rogue scouting out a stronghold, and noticing a guard repeatedly rushing to the closet, seems like a good reward for exploration. You could even force that guards bowel problems at his local tavern, during a brief chat slipping a laxative into his pint etcetera.

 

For me features are fun, add to the believability of the gameworld, and offer more variety of approach rather than just melee and chat.

[Amentep]

Personally I would abstract the use of water closets as a matter of taste, and have the daily constitutional be a part of the resting mechanic, though I would have toilets and bathrooms in the game world. Having a rogue scouting out a stronghold, and noticing a guard repeatedly rushing to the closet, seems like a good reward for exploration. You could even force that guards bowel problems at his local tavern, during a brief chat slipping a laxative into his pint etcetera.

 

For me features are fun, add to the believability of the gameworld, and offer more variety of approach rather than just melee and chat.

 

The thing is, if the daily constitutional could be a part of the resting mechanic, then certainly one could assume that the character eats and sleeps during screen transitions* and buys food when they're buying there potions.  Frankly while I could feed myself if I were to make a long trip, I don't typically fight Kobolds while going to visit relatives, so its not like I have comparable experience. 

 

It seems to me - and I find this funny - how for RPGs we players want to make use of the PCs talent/skill/abilities ("No we can't have an action game because it relies on the players button pressing skill and not the PC's fighting talents) except when we don't ("Yes we must plan our PCs meal schedule in minute detail and tell him exactly when to eat because we must not rely on the PC's ability to feed themselves, something they've been doing for the past 20 - 30 years but instead the players "eat now" button pressing skill).

 

*It disappointed me in BG II when my party would arrive after a long trip and be automatically tired.  You mean they walked 3 days without resting?  WHY?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Amentep

[Nonek]

Well personally I would like exactly that, the game to handle our consumption of supplies like in Betrayal at Krondor, the feeding of six adventurers can become a pain if left to the player as was demonstrated all too clearly in Ultima 7. We simply buy vittles and other appropriate adventuring gear as a method of preparation for our travails, or don't prepare and be at the whims of chance, a little extra planning and preparation when putting ones life on the line seems reasonable but can be left up to the player.

 

I see this as a very simple method of adding layers to the world, an extra skin of verisimilitude if you will, and also an opportunity to use the mechanic as an extra spur for creative roleplaying. You could indeed abstract this and many other things, but where exactly do you stop doing so? Extra features in a roleplaying game are no bad thing, and if they serve to ground the protagonist and add variety rather than annoy, then why not include as many as possible? We can all handle a lot more than fighting and talking in corridors.