Limiting rest areas

[amarok]

Or like eliminating weight limits for your inventory, which already is confirmed for PE (in some way). I dont like things like that.

[Bradr]

Or like eliminating weight limits for your inventory, which already is confirmed for PE (in some way). I dont like things like that.

 

All IE games had weight limits and limited inventory.  And unlimited resting in most areas.

[Elerond]

Resting, inventory system, etc. game mechanics support game's design, instead of designing game to support specific mechanics. So for example when we speak about limiting rest areas we should think why this game needs such thing, what such limitations bring in the game. Like do they balance some other mechanics in the game, or are they for verisimilitude, or is it mini-game, etc.

 

As current plans of game includes per rest abilities and healing only by resting in the game, limiting resting becomes game and difficulty balancing tool and therefore quite important part of sensible game  design. That is because limiting healing and some abilities with rest become quite meaningless design choice if there is no restrictions for the resting or at least some consequence like time limits in quest etc. So question rise which path to choose or should we drop resting and rest limited mechanics from the game. Of course we could go with path that resting is in the game only to add verisimilitude and not limit it all, but this path can also bit back and cause player’s suspension of disbelief to be broken as player starts to rest after every encounter as it gives him/her characters back their per rest abilities and heal them, which can mean that player’s characters rest absolute unbelievable amount of time and sometimes they rest in illogical and unbelievable places. Which is why usually resting for verisimilitude sake also needs restriction mechanics to work as it was intended.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Elerond

[Kjaamor]

 

Resting, inventory system, etc. game mechanics support game's design, instead of designing game to support specific mechanics. So for example when we speak about limiting rest areas we should think why this game needs such thing, what such limitations bring in the game. Like do they balance some other mechanics in the game, or are they for verisimilitude, or is it mini-game, etc.

 

As current plans of game includes per rest abilities and healing only by resting in the game, limiting resting becomes game and difficulty balancing tool and therefore quite important part of sensible game  design. That is because limiting healing and some abilities with rest become quite meaningless design choice if there is no restrictions for the resting or at least some consequence like time limits in quest etc. So question rise which path to choose or should we drop resting and rest limited mechanics from the game. Of course we could go with path that resting is in the game only to add verisimilitude and not limit it all, but this path can also bit back and cause player’s suspension of disbelief to be broken as player starts to rest after every encounter as it gives him/her characters back their per rest abilities and heal them, which can mean that player’s characters rest absolute unbelievable amount of time and sometimes they rest in illogical and unbelievable places. Which is why usually resting for verisimilitude sake also needs restriction mechanics to work as it was intended.

 

 

I'd agree with this, and I must admit the comments made (which may have been taken slightly out of context) about this and similar functions being optional for players has begun to concern me because of the effect it has on balance. Would the game be just as well-adjusted with all the possible mechanics turned off as it would if they were turned on?

[Lephys]

I'd agree with this, and I must admit the comments made (which may have been taken slightly out of context) about this and similar functions being optional for players has begun to concern me because of the effect it has on balance. Would the game be just as well-adjusted with all the possible mechanics turned off as it would if they were turned on?

An excellent question.

[TrashMan]

Why is this a problem?  That is how those other people wanted to play the game, and how the game entertained them.  

 

What did that have to do with your experience?  Did your game suffer because the party could rest anywhere?  Or because someone else playing the game could rest anywhere and farmed XP?

 

I'm just trying to get a reason for not having unlimited rest opportunities.  Doesn't it stand to reason that those who want to rest anywhere can, while those who want limited resting can restrict themselves from resting anywhere?  Why does the game have to impose those restrictions on every player? 

 

 

Why is it a problem?

Because it rewards illogical behavior.

 

Let's say that in the game, you can keep running head-first at full speed at the wall...but insted of getting a cracked skull candy pops out of htewall each time you do it. You get people running into walls and feeling smart while doingit, all the while the world talk how dangerous such activity is.

 

In other words, the player egnages his PC in a behavior that anyone in the world (and anyone sane) would regard as insane and is rewarded for it.

 

Such "gamey" approach is bad for a living, breathing world that's supposed to feel real - in no small part due to it pulling you right out of the experience.

 

Yes, such glaring exploit and flaw hurts my game too. It's very existence hurts it.

 

Let anyone play how he wants? HA! That's an illusion. We all only play within the confines defined by the delopers. Now the developers can makes those confines sensible

[Jarmo]

Though.

 

If you don't get XP from the random encounters and if the opponents are not loot bags,

basically just giving you some crude clubs or some giant rats teeth,

and you risk getting injuries that are not easily healed,

doesn't that then make it undesirable to rest in some random dungeon corridor?

 

Thus, almost like in IE but better?

[TrashMan]

 

I'd agree with this, and I must admit the comments made (which may have been taken slightly out of context) about this and similar functions being optional for players has begun to concern me because of the effect it has on balance. Would the game be just as well-adjusted with all the possible mechanics turned off as it would if they were turned on?

An excellent question.

 

 

And the answer is no.

Becasue at that point, you are no longer designing one system. You are designing two, inherently opposed systems, and then trying to cross-balance them.

An excercise in futility.

[Gfted1]

Though.

 

If you don't get XP from the random encounters and if the opponents are not loot bags,

basically just giving you some crude clubs or some giant rats teeth,

and you risk getting injuries that are not easily healed,

doesn't that then make it undesirable to rest in some random dungeon corridor?

 

Thus, almost like in IE but better?

 

 

When you put it like that combat itself sounds terrible. Gain absolutely nothing and lose time and resources to fix it! Wooo!

[TrashMan]

General combat equals ambush/random encounter? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Not to say that you wouldnt' get anything from combat - depending on whom you are fighting - but if combat is too rewardng, then there is never a reason to avoid it.

Risk is the reason in real life, but in a game, it doesnt' exist (because save/load)

[Randomthom]

There's a number of alternatives to actual limitations on resting that would make good sense.

 

Reduced quest rewards* if you take "too long". To prevent the obvious problem of multiple quests, the timer could perhaps start when you enter X area that is related to the quest perhaps.

 

*I'd suggest that the reduction is to XP rather than gold (or both), presumably it was a more challenging experience if you had to go through a few fights while low on spells/daily abilities. Perhaps this should be an option on one of the extra difficulty settings though.

 

Possibility of non-combat encounters e.g. thieves when resting. Wake up & 10% of your gold is gone...

 

I still think that the fatigue concept as mentioned previously is a very elegant solution. Resting away from proper beds works but applies small stacking penalties with each rest (representing a poor night's sleep). There could be feats to reduce this (druids/barbarians/rangers would get this for free). The neat thing about this solution is that it doesn't stop anyone from doing a lot of resting in a dungeon but it does discourage it. Could be disabled for easy mode & those who like to just blow sh*t up

[Gfted1]

General combat equals ambush/random encounter? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Pretty much. We already know there's no kill XP so just remove useful loot from the bodies and there we are. Do you think Jarmo was suggesting a completely different combat mechanic used solely for random encounters while trying to rest? That's oddly specific.

[Hormalakh]

Or like eliminating weight limits for your inventory, which already is confirmed for PE (in some way). I dont like things like that.

 

Though, this isn't the topic at hand I did want to address this point. There's a huge difference. Josh may have taken out inventory weight limits but he put another limit on them at the same time. The rules may have changed but there are still rules on inventories at the end of the day.

 

Instead of weight or space being the limit, there are only certain locations where you can access your inventory. Ultimately, the rule change made the monotony of having to shift items between a local cache and a global cache non-existant, but there are still limits to when you can access items.

 

Thus the rules changed, but the game still has rules.

[Sensuki]

One of the first mods I can see being made

 

Access Inventory anywhere

[Gfted1]

One of the first mods I can see being made

 

Access Inventory anywhere

Hopefully its bundled with: Rest Anywhere, Kill XP and Here Are Some Healing Capabilities So You Don't Have To Hump Up From The 11th Level Of The Endless Paths To Heal.

[Randomthom]

D&D is <<<THAT WAY<<<

[Gfted1]

D&D is

 

 

Inventory, resting, kill xp and healing have nothing whatsoever to do with D&D.

[TrashMan]

No, but they have to do with bad design principles that are long overdue to getting rid of.

[Gfted1]

No, but they have to do with bad design principles that are long overdue to getting rid of.

 

 

No they don't. Its all about the implementation, not the existence of the mechanic. And what does that have to do with mods?

[JFSOCC]

I'd agree with this, and I must admit the comments made (which may have been taken slightly out of context) about this and similar functions being optional for players has begun to concern me because of the effect it has on balance. Would the game be just as well-adjusted with all the possible mechanics turned off as it would if they were turned on?

I agree I think it's better to make a decision one way or the other than to make something optional. The exception is when it pertains to difficulty, but then I would like to have my difficulty settings to be well defined.

[Randomthom]

I think it's rather silly for us to be talking about balance & writing off design decisions for a game that isn't due out until next year. We don't know much about anything so all of this is somewhat knee-jerk.

[Hormalakh]

Creating "mods" for this game would be like making hacks and "trainers" in any other game. you can't stop them. And "optional" modes would be like the modal cheats that certain games have. Many times these "cheats" are quick jump to points for devs for dev-type purposes, i.e. not meant for actual gaming.

 

As long as the developers don't intend the game to be played that way, I wouldn't be playing it that way. I just want the devs to set up the rules right. Anyone else can play with their own house rules and it won't bother me. I will be bothered by the devs having to waste their time(and I do believe that this is a waste of time) setting up "optional modes" that are not modes of gameplay that the devs intended or that do not fit the rules of the game.

[Lephys]

Its all about the implementation, not the existence of the mechanic.

I would say the exact same regarding something like limited resting as the mechanic in question.

 

Like Hormalakh said, if you can't wait to mod your game when it comes out, and just wipe out limitations you don't even want to deal with, then more power to ya. Really.

 

But, I don't see the point, personally, in deciding there shouldn't even be a limitation on something just because something could've been done better in other games.

 

Like you said, you don't want to hike all the way out of the Endless Paths from the 11th level, but maybe hiking "all the way" back to the 10th level wouldn't be so bad. In this specific example, if you can't make it through a single level of a dungeon without needing to fully rest, then you've got an issue that has nothing to do with how far away the nearest rest area is.

 

That's the whole point of a limitation like this. Health, in P:E, is designed to last you from Rest Point A to Rest Point B, with enough leeway there for it to matter. If you get to Rest Point B with 30% Health left, then awesome. You can feel like you did pretty well there. If you get ALMOST to Rest Point B, and you're down to 15% Health, then you probably need to change up your tactics in combat (maybe you've been being too aggressive, and you need to be more conservative?). But, combat is now dynamically altered by the fact that you couldn't just rest to full 10 seconds before every combat.

 

Besides, if you could do that, then each and every combat encounter should be designed to be SO difficult as to potentially outright kill your entire party, because once combat's over, you'd recover to full.

 

The point is, the limit needs to be REASONABLE. If you play the game, on Easy, and you're needing to run backwards to go Rest up every 2 combat encounters, and there are 30 combat encounters between Rest Point A and Rest Point B, then yeah, there's a problem. If there are 3 combat encounters between them, then maybe that should be encouragement to alter what you're doing. Go better outfit your peeps before tackling this task, or maybe change up your tactics or party makeup (if available).

 

The whole point of a game is to actively overcome things. Not just be dragged through the story on a chain attached to a tractor that never stops moving forward, no matter what you do.

 

Sorry... I rambled. I'm aware. 8P

[Sensuki]

Well on the other hand, while some people will make ease of use mods, you'll also see stuff akin to Sword Coast Stratagems most likely, meaning that if you screw something up it means a red hot poker up the rear end.

 

Works both ways really.

[Solstis]

What madness is this?? Limiting resting? What would possibly limit you resting in real life, and would you really be so quick to run back in the dungeon with open wounds? Sometimes you get beat bloody in these games and some down time is a necessity, much like adventuring in real life would be.

 

I don't understand why this should be limited in any sense, though unsafe areas are obviously unsafe and prone to ambushes and attacks. Keep the challenges elsewhere and let people play the game at whatever pace they want to.