What's going on in Boston?

[Rostere]

My thoughts go out to the policeman and the MIT security officer who were murdered. I guess this morning when they put on their uniforms, they did not know it would be for the last time. Yet they fulfilled their duties, in spite of the knowledge that they faced armed criminals whose only known goal was to kill innocents, and ultimately made the final sacrifice in the line of duty. That's something to remember next time you see a police officer.

 

I considered watching news coverage but then remembered that the media are being idiots about this. The social media angle is encouraged and misinformation doesn't matter, as long as you are the first to report it. I miss the days when you had to have two confirmed sources to report something. Nowadays 'this or that person tweeted' willl do.

 

I remember reading on the Internet, perhaps on CNN or some other American news site, that surveillance videos had shown a dark- skinned suspect. The day after, I read in a Swedish newspaper that a suspect had white skin. At the time I read that, there was no information on that matter on news sites.

 

You could be wondering if they're just guessing, after all, if they aren't arresting a smurf there's a 50/50 probability they are correct.

[BruceVC]

Wow I am glad that this incident is over, it was both a worrying and exhilarating 24 hours watching events unfold

 

Just a point on social media, I don't use it at  all and this incident has highlighted again why. There is so much miss misinformation around what people know or think they know. I prefer to use credible news channels for updates

 

Edited April 20, 2013 by BruceVC

[Calax]

 remember reading on the Internet, perhaps on CNN or some other American news site, that surveillance videos had shown a dark- skinned suspect. The day after, I read in a Swedish newspaper that a suspect had white skin. At the time I read that, there was no information on that matter on news sites.

Twas CNN. They had that going for an hour or two before an FBI "Contact" of one of their journalists said (basically) "KNOCK IT OFF!"

 

From what I could tell in the clips shown by the Daily Show, it was literally one of their guys on a cell phone texting with his "contacts" and reading it aloud on air without even checking the validity of this stuff.

[BruceVC]

This is a good time to raise to something that some of you may be interested in or may not be aware of and that is the Chechen civil wars. This also explains the mindset of the brothers and violent place they came from. I was always fascinated by the Chechen conflict mostly due to the way the Russians handled it , they showed an almost complete disregard for civilian casualties and finally how they were able to achieve "victory"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

I remember reading reports about terrified Russian mothers who refused to send there sons to the meat grinder that was the Chechen conflict, conscription is law in Russia and there was  heavy jail time for avoiding it but many families would rather have broken the law then send there sons to this dangerous civil war.

The Russian  used brutal tactics to try to suppress the Chechen fighters and hundreds of thousands of people became refugees. They were finally able to achieve peace by convincing Ramzan Kadyrov, a former Chechen rebel leader, to switch sides and help them. He employed even more brutal tactics to end the civil war and almost all the remaining rebel leaders were killed or  joined him. He is now the president of Chechnya, you need to read about this guy. Its like making some mob boss the ruler of a country

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8001495.stm

 

Anyway that is just some context to the Chechen civil war and the consequences to it

[Blodhemn]

I wonder if the same care of explanation would be taken if the suspects were right wing extremists, like many jumped to the conclusion that they were.

[BruceVC]

I wonder if the same care of explanation would be taken if the suspects were right wing extremists, like many jumped to the conclusion that they were.

 

Ouch nasty, I hope you aren't referring to my post as I only did it for some historical interest?

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

Ah so the same people that the US financed and helped train to kill Russian soldiers and civilians are now killing US civilians.

 

History indeed, has a sense of irony.

 

 

Drowsy I am concerned that your understanding of the conflict in Chechnya, Beslan and the USA involvement is incorrect

 

Can you explain why you think the USA funded the Checknyan extremists in any respect?

 

The emergence of Islamic groups in adjacent regions of North Caucasus based on the Chechen model and their support from Chechnya to break from Russia led to the indirect involvement of the US and its allies. The latter’s involvement was covert but US was directly involved. In 1998 the US was exerting pressure on Geidar Aliyev who usurped power in Azerbaijan to accept the US proposed oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea to Turkey, bypassing Russia. At the time Aliyev was still dependent on Moscow and was reluctant to give in to US demands. There is evidence to suggest that Aliyev, backed by the US, actively aided Chechen militias to battle Russian forces in Dagestan. The motive was to eliminate the existing oil route through Russia which was severely damaged in the 1999 military activities in Dagestan. The American project succeeded; today the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline pumps oil out of the Caspian bypassing Russia, but economically drains the Azerbaijan Republic.

 

And more:

 

 

Although President Vladimir Putin and top Russian security officials provided evidence of links between Chechen fighters and Al-Qaeda, European politicians and mainstream Western journalists focused instead upon the Russian army's brutality and dismissed Putin's claims as an attempt to gain sympathy in the West and deflect criticism of Russia's handling of a nationalist insurgency.

Putin may have been opportunistic, but he was also correct. A close examination of the evolution of the Chechen movement indicates that Islamists and followers of Al-Qaeda have increasingly sought to co-opt the Chechen movement as their own.

 

Not to mention open propaganda support (TIME magazine covers and all).

 

 

 

Source?

 

 

Because I can too, put random things into quotations

 

The first one is, I believe, from The Crescent International Magazine, the second appears to be from The Middle East Quarterly.

 

I'm not terribly familiar with either, so can't say what kind of sources they (or, the authors articles) are / have

 

 

I'm not either but you don't need a degree in international relations (which I have, incidentally) to know that Chechens received support from the US. Even though certain parties cried crocodile tears over the impact the war was having on the fledgling Russian democracy.

 

Regardless, the oil pipeline and its political impact is rather obvious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku%E2%80%93Tbilisi%E2%80%93Ceyhan_pipeline#Controversial_aspects

 

As for the propaganda support I'm old enough to remember it myself. The Al-Qaeda-Chechen links are a pretty well known topic: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/19/ties-between-islamic-extremist-groups-and-chechnya-well-documented/

 

As is the dismissive attitude of the US administration towards the Russian involvement in the war, the overt support of Chechens as freedom fighters etc.

 

Basically its the same story as Kosovo and Bosnia although the stakes were different.  And the result was again, the same:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0412/Albanian-pleads-guilty-in-terror-case-just-4-years-after-gaining-US-residency

Going so far as to lie about the origin of the terrorists to cover up the links:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/u-s-embassy-bosnia-hezegovina-fire-serbian-terrorist-custody-shooting-article-1.967570

 

The second article is a flat out misinformation and lie. Notice:

Regional media identified the shooter as 23-year-old Mevlid Jasarevic, a member of the conservative Wahhabi sect of Islam, the same order that rules U.S. ally Saudi Arabia, the Associated Press reported.

 

He has a muslim name and is a member of a muslim sect. I don't know where he was born, meaning whose passport he's sporting (probably Bosnian - which doesn't say anything about his nationality), but there are no Serbs that are muslims, much less Wahhabi.

 

Stings to say that your Bosnian muslim friends are shooting up your embassy just a few years after you fought a war on their behalf, doesn't it.

 

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

I see they caught the other one as well. Just a kid.

 

The current theory is that they were so alienated (for not having american friends? seriously?) they adopted Jihadi tactics, strapped themselves up with bombs and went out to kill people. Full of holes, that theory is.

[obyknven]

 

[Walsingham]

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier about describing Serbia as having no Muslims, Drowsy. Even if it were true it wouldn't be because someone was frying bacon, in the nineties.

 

On the subject of Chechnya, I'd remind those old enough that back in the day, Jihadis said Chechnya was proof that there was a Christian conspiracy against Muslims. Because - so they said - we should have sent in troops to support them against Russian oppression. Then of course using troops to liberate Muslims later was used by the exact same ideologues to 'prove' we were out to dominate and control Muslims.

 

This is why I have zero time for people who say foreign policy is the problem. The bastards are just as creative with truth as they are with wire and ammonia.

[BruceVC]

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier about describing Serbia as having no Muslims, Drowsy. Even if it were true it wouldn't be because someone was frying bacon, in the nineties.

 

On the subject of Chechnya, I'd remind those old enough that back in the day, Jihadis said Chechnya was proof that there was a Christian conspiracy against Muslims. Because - so they said - we should have sent in troops to support them against Russian oppression. Then of course using troops to liberate Muslims later was used by the exact same ideologues to 'prove' we were out to dominate and control Muslims.

 

This is why I have zero time for people who say foreign policy is the problem. The bastards are just as creative with truth as they are with wire and ammonia.

 

I agree, Chechen fighters were accusing the West of doing nothing to help the plight of the Chechen people. Also if the USA was actively helping the Chechens against the Russians and this was known the Russians would have raised this at the UN and made it very obvious. The war in Chechnya lasted nearly 20 years so why not bring it to the attention of the international community. I don't buy the story at all that the USA was supporting the Chechen's against the Russians, its factually incorrect

 

@ Drowsy

Are you not getting confused with the War  in Afghanistan against the USSR in the 1980's where the USA used the CIA to help train the Mujahideen fighters?

[Drowsy Emperor]

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier about describing Serbia as having no Muslims, Drowsy. Even if it were true it wouldn't be because someone was frying bacon, in the nineties.

 

On the subject of Chechnya, I'd remind those old enough that back in the day, Jihadis said Chechnya was proof that there was a Christian conspiracy against Muslims. Because - so they said - we should have sent in troops to support them against Russian oppression. Then of course using troops to liberate Muslims later was used by the exact same ideologues to 'prove' we were out to dominate and control Muslims.

 

This is why I have zero time for people who say foreign policy is the problem. The bastards are just as creative with truth as they are with wire and ammonia.

 

There are muslims in certain parts of Serbia, but they're not Serbs. They declare themselves as Bosniaks/Bosnians/of bosnian muslim origin and consider themselves a separate nation. Serbian nationality is tied to being Orthodox Chrisian, or at the very least an atheist/agnostic.

 

The article is a weak attempt at spinning the story which is a classic piece of Islamic terror. Albeit not very effective.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier about describing Serbia as having no Muslims, Drowsy. Even if it were true it wouldn't be because someone was frying bacon, in the nineties.

 

On the subject of Chechnya, I'd remind those old enough that back in the day, Jihadis said Chechnya was proof that there was a Christian conspiracy against Muslims. Because - so they said - we should have sent in troops to support them against Russian oppression. Then of course using troops to liberate Muslims later was used by the exact same ideologues to 'prove' we were out to dominate and control Muslims.

 

This is why I have zero time for people who say foreign policy is the problem. The bastards are just as creative with truth as they are with wire and ammonia.

 

I agree, Chechen fighters were accusing the West of doing nothing to help the plight of the Chechen people. Also if the USA was actively helping the Chechens against the Russians and this was known the Russians would have raised this at the UN and made it very obvious. The war in Chechnya lasted nearly 20 years so why not bring it to the attention of the international community. I don't buy the story at all that the USA was supporting the Chechen's against the Russians, its factually incorrect

 

@ Drowsy

Are you not getting confused with the War  in Afghanistan against the USSR in the 1980's where the USA used the CIA to help train the Mujahideen fighters?

 

 

So you're dismissing the part about the pipeline as a lie? Or just picking sources to suit your theory?

 

Since you're interested in the war here's an article:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO409E.html

Edited April 20, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

 

 

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier about describing Serbia as having no Muslims, Drowsy. Even if it were true it wouldn't be because someone was frying bacon, in the nineties.

 

On the subject of Chechnya, I'd remind those old enough that back in the day, Jihadis said Chechnya was proof that there was a Christian conspiracy against Muslims. Because - so they said - we should have sent in troops to support them against Russian oppression. Then of course using troops to liberate Muslims later was used by the exact same ideologues to 'prove' we were out to dominate and control Muslims.

 

This is why I have zero time for people who say foreign policy is the problem. The bastards are just as creative with truth as they are with wire and ammonia.

 

I agree, Chechen fighters were accusing the West of doing nothing to help the plight of the Chechen people. Also if the USA was actively helping the Chechens against the Russians and this was known the Russians would have raised this at the UN and made it very obvious. The war in Chechnya lasted nearly 20 years so why not bring it to the attention of the international community. I don't buy the story at all that the USA was supporting the Chechen's against the Russians, its factually incorrect

 

@ Drowsy

Are you not getting confused with the War  in Afghanistan against the USSR in the 1980's where the USA used the CIA to help train the Mujahideen fighters?

 

 

So you're dismissing the part about the pipeline as a lie? Or just picking sources to suit your theory?

 

Since you're interested in the war here's an article:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO409E.html

 

 

I don't see the relevance around the pipeline and your point about the USA funding Chechen fighters against the Russians.

I am not even sure if the pipeline even  runs through Chechnya, I  don't think it does?

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier about describing Serbia as having no Muslims, Drowsy. Even if it were true it wouldn't be because someone was frying bacon, in the nineties.

 

On the subject of Chechnya, I'd remind those old enough that back in the day, Jihadis said Chechnya was proof that there was a Christian conspiracy against Muslims. Because - so they said - we should have sent in troops to support them against Russian oppression. Then of course using troops to liberate Muslims later was used by the exact same ideologues to 'prove' we were out to dominate and control Muslims.

 

This is why I have zero time for people who say foreign policy is the problem. The bastards are just as creative with truth as they are with wire and ammonia.

 

I agree, Chechen fighters were accusing the West of doing nothing to help the plight of the Chechen people. Also if the USA was actively helping the Chechens against the Russians and this was known the Russians would have raised this at the UN and made it very obvious. The war in Chechnya lasted nearly 20 years so why not bring it to the attention of the international community. I don't buy the story at all that the USA was supporting the Chechen's against the Russians, its factually incorrect

 

@ Drowsy

Are you not getting confused with the War  in Afghanistan against the USSR in the 1980's where the USA used the CIA to help train the Mujahideen fighters?

 

 

So you're dismissing the part about the pipeline as a lie? Or just picking sources to suit your theory?

 

Since you're interested in the war here's an article:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO409E.html

 

 

I don't see the relevance around the pipeline and your point about the USA funding Chechen fighters against the Russians.

I am not even sure if the pipeline even  runs through Chechnya, I  don't think it does?

 

 

 

The pipline went through Dagestan, Chechnya, Russian territory. US goal was to disable/destroy it and replace it with the Baky-Ceyhan-Tbilisi US & UK conglomerate funded pipeline that doesn't go through Russian territory, thereby weakening Russia and allowing them to use draw oil from the Caspian sea. That's what happened.

 

Read the article if you're interested. 

Edited April 20, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

I simply don't buy the idea that the Chechens got significant help from the West in Chechnya. I don't expect anyone else to be swayed by that without better justification, but it's a lovely sunny day and I'm damned if I'm going through my old books to get 'evidence' for an absence of something.

[Hildegard]

 

There's never a shortage of dumb people in the US

[HoonDing]

 

Lol enforcement.

[Hurlshort]

There are people in the US that fail basic geography quizzes about their own country, it really shouldn't surprise people that they are confusing Chechnya with the Czech Republic.

 

Of course I'd be surprised if many Europeans on this forum could tell me the difference between Arkansas and Kansas without using the internet.  

[Rosbjerg]

Glen Beck apperantly have proof it's an inside job.. This is gonna be hilarious.

 

[Hurlshort]

Crazy brings in the ratings, I suppose.  It kind of undermines his whole spiel when he uses it as a teaser to get people to listen to his show on Monday.   

[Malcador]

Yeah, nothing like integrity to have information people need to know and then....give a deadline before you release it. Sheesh, Democrats suck at inside jobs - kill 3 where the Republican one killed 3000.

[BruceVC]

Crazy brings in the ratings, I suppose.  It kind of undermines his whole spiel when he uses it as a teaser to get people to listen to his show on Monday.   

 

I can't tell you how much people like Glen Beck irritate me, can't he be arrested on some charge around the spreading of misinformation?

[Gorgon]

Is he at least consistent, as in 11/9 was one too ?

 

He was too out there even for Fox News, that ought to tell you something. The jury is still out on whether he believes any of this himself or if it is just part of the Glen Beck Show, the one that is automatically in session whenever he opens his mouth.  I mean what else can he do. He can't go back to teaching, no one will have him.

[BruceVC]

Is he at least consistent, as in 11/9 was one too ?

 

He was too out there even for Fox News, that ought to tell you something. The jury is still out on whether he believes any of this himself or if it is just part of the Glen Beck Show, the one that is automatically in session whenever he opens his mouth.  I mean what else can he do. He can't go back to teaching, no one will have him.

 Good points raised, he is rather sad when you think about it