Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes and Women in Gaming

[alanschu]

 

Who says I have to be either or?

 

No one.  And in fact few people truly are.

 

But in my (imperfect) assessment it's the type of commentary that gets propagated most frequently, due to its extreme nature.  Which often ends up polarizing people (It's also why I only delve into article comments for entertainment purposes rather than to get any meaningful sort of discussion).

 

 

 

I can enjoy being a misogynist in a video game without going around and insulting the opposite sex once I put the keyboard aside. I love playing Carmageddon, but I never even considered running over that baby stroller on the sidewalk the last time I drove past one (didn't even think '10 points' or whatever).

 

This is true, and why I find it interesting that I tend to be dismissive towards the influence violent gaming has on turning young people into violent people, while for this I find myself drawn to the opposite conclusion.  It may have something to do with the pervasiveness of the trope (i.e. gaming is just one part of the problem.  As far as I can tell the other alternatives for "violent" expressive actions by children aren't as demonized as video games.  In the case of sports they are often championed as positive influences).  Or maybe I am just sick of the trope and would like to support any pressures that would help deviate from it.  Heck, maybe I just have more female friends that actively game, including one that used to have an eye for seeing a lot of things I never even would have blinked an eye at (which doesn't make her right and me wrong.  It's just interesting what a different perspective sees).

[HoonDing]

Just because a character is a damsel in distress, doesn't mean the character needs to be passive like Princess Peach. or Princess Daphne.

Princess Zelda and the Princess from Mechner's Prince of Persia games both still helped out the main character in their own way.

[Fighter]

No, feminists say that stuff like that is bad for how women are perceived. Stated like that, do you disagree?

 

I think it's bad to presume to decide for other women how they should or should not be perceived.

[Chaz]

I haven't actually really been reading your longer posts at this point

 

I'll keep it short then. previously I posed this question, Do you think that as a result of playing video games now you see women as inferior? If your answer is no, then you disagree with the whole premise of her series which is to point out how games reinforce sexist and mysoginistic ideas about women.

 

And that question goes to everyone, because by her logic, if video games have been so mysgonistic then most gamers would hate women, when there is no evidence to suggest that, I mean, what is the evidence? angry teenagers in xbox live? youtube comments? that's it? Where is the link between bowser kidnapping peach and real life misogyny like women getting their faces melted with acid in the middle east?

 

Yeah boy, those Taliban must be some really hardcore gamers! /sarcasm

 

I tend to be dismissive towards the influence violent gaming has on turning young people into violent people

 

It's not really beign dismissive, there's actually no evidence, there have been several studies to prove the link between games and violence and none of them have proved it, , for me sarkeesian is in par with the NRA, attacking video games when they have caused no harm.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

 

No, feminists say that stuff like that is bad for how women are perceived. Stated like that, do you disagree?

 

I think it's bad to presume to decide for other women how they should or should not be perceived.

 

 

I think it's bad to incorrectly attribute a perception (Feminists want to tell us that women don't find this attractive) to a group when that's not actually accurate too.

 

 

My point with my statement is that (most) feminists see something like Twilight as a step backwards the same way that they would have felt a woman that goes "But it's our lot in life to serve our men and to not get involved in the things men take part in" before things like Women's suffrage became reality.  Much the same as slaves that didn't want to disrupt social order and abolish slavery because it's what they knew and it was comfortable for them.

 

 

You're looking at the micro level: it's bad to presume how any one woman should or should not be perceived.  I'm looking at it on a macro level: it's a bad influence on how all women are perceived.  A feminist's concern is not that some twilight fanatic that thinks the life of Bella is awesome his perceived negatively, but rather that some (men and women) will apply this perception to ALL women.

Edited March 18, 2013 by alanschu

[pmp10]

 

 

I tend to be dismissive towards the influence violent gaming has on turning young people into violent people

It's not really beign dismissive, there's actually no evidence, there have been several studies to prove the link between games and violence and none of them have proved it, , for me sarkeesian is in par with the NRA, attacking video games when they have caused no harm.

 

 

That's a bit of semantic cop-out.

There might not have been a study showing causal relation beyond reasonable doubt but some studies have shown correlation between violent games and acceptance of aggression or decreased levels of empathy.

[Meshugger]

Men want to save women. Women want to be saved by men. Doing it otherwise is just out of the norm, which is not bad per see, but expecting people not to think that it is outside the norm is silly.

 

Another thing would be focusing on the character based on personality and morale, instead of mere gender.

[Fighter]

I think it's bad to incorrectly attribute a perception (Feminists want to tell us that women don't find this attractive) to a group when that's not actually accurate too.

 

It is accurate. I've seen it said in relation to video games. There is like 360 brands of feminism obviously some are more sane than others.

 

 

My point with my statement is that (most) feminists see something

like Twilight as a step backwards the same way that they would have felt

a woman that goes "But it's our lot in life to serve our men and to not

get involved in the things men take part in" before things like Women's

suffrage became reality.  Much the same as slaves that didn't want to

disrupt social order and abolish slavery because it's what they knew and

it was comfortable for them.

You're looking at the micro level: it's bad to presume how any one

woman should or should not be perceived.  I'm looking at it on a macro

level: it's a bad influence on how all women are perceived.  A

feminist's concern is not that some twilight fanatic that thinks the

life of Bella is awesome his perceived negatively, but rather that some

(men and women) will apply this perception to ALL women.

 

"But it's our lot in life to serve our men and to not

get involved in the things men take part in"

 

That's a little excessive. The Twilight comparison is more like:

 

"But I just want to be a house wife and let my man take care of the rest"

 

Which is, unambitious as it is, a personal choice. Just like the fantasy of being rescued by an emo looking vampire dude.

 

Which I get that it's a bad role model maybe. But again, they should go make their own instead of trying to shame others into some kind of 'right' way of behaviour.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

This.

[Volourn]

Another sexist artice! I loathe sexists. Scumbags of the earth.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Another sexist artice! I loathe sexists. Scumbags of the earth.

 

Oh, come on. This is misandrist and inflammatory. My previous link was perfectly reasonable.

[Malcador]

Heh, there's a "fuss" in Arma 3 about adding female soldiers. Someone put on the issue tracker a high priority item to add them, and a kerfuffle has been sparked. I'm of the sense that it'd be ok to add them, there was talk of this for months now about whether women would truly be in the infantry along pilots, support, etc.

[LadyCrimson]

It's always interesting to see how the (largely male) gaming crowd on forums reacts to this sort of issue. (edit: it's interesting to see how females react, too, but there aren't many who speak up in the places I frequent, so...).

 

I guess I don't know any "feminists" (except maybe my sister, a bit) because most of the gals my age that I know would laugh/scoff at this series. It's not that she doesn't have a germ of a point, but that the point is made in what seems to be a rather one-sided and shallow fashion. Her videos (not just this current KS one) are too black and white, for me. Like her "creepy Xmas" video. It's entertainment, it's fantasy, sometimes it's good-natured humor. Gender stereotypes will always exist, especially in entertainment, because, y'know, men and women are different, and sometimes, that's fine. I don't think such should be scrubbed away from all entertainment/the world like some kind of cancer, as if there's never a time when it's "ok". It depends on the usage, the intent/setting/theme and the product. 

 

So I don't see the big deal over this woman's vids. She has a right to air her viewpoint in public if she wants, even if I find them not my thing. I tried watching both the KS video and some of other pre-KS videos. I don't agree with her stances (I pretty much snorted in ridicule over her "creepy Xmas songs" video), so I'm not personally interested in watching any more of her videos. 

 

For the record, I'm for equality/choices in entertainment and against gender/sexual discrimination, but I'm definitely not a "feminist." And I don't care who's in distress, as long as it's a good tale/game.

[Gorgon]

I fail my save vs. indifference. But hey if she can make a living becoming a media personality connected with fighting misogyny in gaming more power to her. 

 

Although sometimes it's simply part of the environment. Like an 80s Bond flick or SIN CITY or whatever. Bayonetta is not going to have interesting things to say about the role of women in society.

[Volourn]

"Oh, come on. This is misandrist and inflammatory. My previous link was perfectly reasonable."

 

Anyone whose argument comes down to male vs female and feels the need to bash one gender to prop the other up is sexist. I don't care if it is a male who goes on about the 'woman place is in the kicthen' or a female that claims 'men are violent scumbags and if wiomne wer ein charge it be all HappyHappyLand'. Theya re both sexist attitudes. Period.

 

This idea that sexism is a male only disease is pathetic.

 

 

"For the record, I'm for equality/choices in entertainment and against gender/sexual discrimination,"
 

You win.

[alanschu]

 

It is accurate. I've seen it said in relation to video games. There is like 360 brands of feminism obviously some are more sane than others.

 

So it's another example of taking an extreme viewpoint (from someone I'd argue that doesn't really understand the tenants of feminism) and applying it to ALL feminists?

 

 

 

"But it's our lot in life to serve our men and to not get involved in the things men take part in"

That's a little excessive. The Twilight comparison is more like:

 

It's an analogy.  I wasn't stating that feminists equate Twilight with being "it's our lot in life."  I'm stating that feminists have goals that they like to achieve, and that there are women that don't subscribe to that goal doesn't undermine the goals that feminism may have, and that because a woman would rather something contradictory to what feminists want, a feminist feels it undermines the goals of what they seek.

 

Another analogy is that hardcore RPGers would dislike a move to more cinematic RPGs because they feel it undermines the direction they would like RPGs to go, and they get upset at RPG fans that embrace the cinematic RPGs.

 

 

 

Which I get that it's a bad role model maybe. But again, they should go make their own instead of trying to shame others into some kind of 'right' way of behaviour.

 

Feminists do make their own, and frankly I loathe the "go make your own" argument.  It's perfectly valid for someone to slag on DA2 and for me to just say "if you don't like what we're doing, go make your own" isn't particularly useful.

 

By this point the counterpoint to Anita's video would be "If you don't like the message she's saying in her video, go make your own video!"

[aluminiumtrioxid]

"Oh, come on. This is misandrist and inflammatory. My previous link was perfectly reasonable."

 

Anyone whose argument comes down to male vs female and feels the need to bash one gender to prop the other up is sexist. I don't care if it is a male who goes on about the 'woman place is in the kicthen' or a female that claims 'men are violent scumbags and if wiomne wer ein charge it be all HappyHappyLand'. Theya re both sexist attitudes. Period.

 

Did we read the same article? Where did she 'bash one gender to prop the other up'? 

 

The whole article could be summed up as "diversity in hiring equals diversity in content, thus we should not waste time whining about how a male-dominated industry does things in a way that could be expected from a male-dominated industry, but instead lobby for hiring more women". I can't really find a fault in that.

Edited March 18, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Chaz]

The reason why I said Feminists are against freedom of speech is because she disabled comments and ratings on her videos, putting her in par with other nutjobs such as creationists that think the earth is 6000 old.

 

I see some people like to use the sarkeesian method and ignore the critics. I asked if you guys, as a result of playing video games, now you feel women are Inferior, because that's her whole premise, that video games amplify and reinforce misogyny and sexism

Edited March 18, 2013 by Chaz

[Raithe]

Heh, and to go on a slight offshoot  http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/13471/article/publishers-declined-remember-me-due-to-the-game-s-female-protagonist/

 

Apparently some publishers declined on "Remember Me" due to the game's female protagonist and because "We wanted to be able to tease Nilin's private life, and that means for instance, at one point, we wanted a scene where she was kissing a guy. We had people tell us, 'you can't have a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward'."

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I see some people like to use the sarkeesian method and ignore the critics. I asked if you guys, as a result of playing video games, now you feel women are Inferior, because that's her whole premise, that video games amplify and reinforce misogyny and sexism

 

It could reinforce them subconsciously. But until someone creates an implicit misogyny test, we can't really tell.

Edited March 18, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Chaz]

 

I see some people like to use the sarkeesian method and ignore the critics. I asked if you guys, as a result of playing video games, now you feel women are Inferior, because that's her whole premise, that video games amplify and reinforce misogyny and sexism

 

It could reinforce them subconsciously. But until someone creates an implicit misogyny test, we can't really tell.

 

So in short, no evidence that shows correlation between princes peach beign kidnapped and real world misogyny.

 

Gee, I wonder where I heard baseless accusations before...    oh yeah!

 

 

"There exists in this country a callous, corrupt and corrupting shadow

industry that sells, and sows violence against its own people,"

 

How is that guy worse than Sarkeesian?

Edited March 18, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

 

So in short, no evidence that shows correlation between princes peach beign kidnapped and real world misogyny.

 

Are you suggesting that exposure to ideas in consumed media has no impact on the socialization of human beings?

[Sannom]

This is true, and why I find it interesting that I tend to be dismissive towards the influence violent gaming has on turning young people into violent people, while for this I find myself drawn to the opposite conclusion.

To be fair, the two subjects are very different. Violence in popular culture is glorified and glamorized. Some people wants more and more of it, movies and video games have sometimes violence and huge amount of gore as their selling point. We're so permeated by it, how in the world could it have such an impact?

 

A contrario, sexism in games is much more the result of cluelessness, stupidity, laziness, than outright malice or even intent. Maybe we want those people to just get a clue, and so we're particularly harsh with them. Like that review I read of Tomb Raider in which the reviewer admits to have been harsh with the game mainly because of 'squandered potential'.

 

Princess Zelda and the Princess from Mechner's Prince of Persia games both still helped out the main character in their own way.

What did the Prince of Persia princess do? 

 

This.

Yeah, I think that's what most feminists, including Sarkeesian, really want, but because we mostly hear them talking about the bad, their views seem limited.

 

Apparently some publishers declined on "Remember Me" due to the game's female protagonist and because "We wanted to be able to tease Nilin's private life, and that means for instance, at one point, we wanted a scene where she was kissing a guy. We had people tell us, 'you can't have a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward'."

That is stupid, but awkwardness at Carth's declaration of love in KOTOR is what has made me avoid making female characters in RPGs ever since.

[Chaz]

 

So in short, no evidence that shows correlation between princes peach beign kidnapped and real world misogyny.

 

Are you suggesting that exposure to ideas in consumed media has no impact on the socialization of human beings?

 

Another Straw Man incoming? be careful, you don't want to respond to an argument I didn't make, again.

 

I said there is no evidence to show correlation between peach beign kidnapped and real world misogyny, can media have an impact? sure. But specifically misogyny for playing Mario? there's no evidence.

 

And I'm getting tired of responding to your fallacies when you don't even answer to half the arguments I make, and you didn't respond to the question I made either

Edited March 18, 2013 by Chaz

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

This.

 

Yeah, I think that's what most feminists, including Sarkeesian, really want, but because we mostly hear them talking about the bad, their views seem limited.

 

In an optimal world, that would be true. But sometimes I feel they are more interested in yelling about opression than actual resolutions.

 

 

 

I see some people like to use the sarkeesian method and ignore the critics. I asked if you guys, as a result of playing video games, now you feel women are Inferior, because that's her whole premise, that video games amplify and reinforce misogyny and sexism

 

It could reinforce them subconsciously. But until someone creates an implicit misogyny test, we can't really tell.

 

So in short, no evidence that shows correlation between princes peach beign kidnapped and real world misogyny.

 

Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence, especially since I haven't heard about any studies regarding this question. Until then, "such a correlation does exist" is just as good a hypothesis as is its opposite.