The good, bad, and the ugly in Infinity Engine games

[PrimeJunta]

+1 on PS:T. It was the game that made me sit up and take notice that computer games could one day become a serious art form, comparable to film or opera for example.

 

And yeah, since then pretty much a whole lotta nuthin', in that department. MCA, are you listening?

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It's difficult for me to evaluate the original Baldur's Gate, as I've played it with Tutu or BGT and countless other mods which have enhanced it greatly. I feel it would be unfair to judge the game through a modern lense without considering the modded content. The BG 1 NPC Project is superbly done, Sword Coast Strategems critically enhances enemy AI (particularly mages), and the BG2 engine with the Spell Revisions mod takes the already incredibly robust spellbook and majorly enhances it.

 

When I first played the original Baldur's Gate, I was 10 or 11 years old. Clearly, this played a part in being impressed by it. Today, even the finest crafted modern game couldn't impact me as video games did as a child, so looking at a 14 1/2 year old game without any of the brilliant custom content out there....what else would you expect? Unmodded, yes, I can clearly understand the deficiencies of the original Baldur's Gate. However, fully modded, I still find play it preferable to Dragon Age: Origins on an (fairly) objective basis.

[Karkarov]

*coughs* rose colored glasses much Junta?  Planescape is a downright crap game with a good story and Baldur's Gate 1 is a downright average game with an okay story.  I am more forgiving of Baldur's Gate because it came first, they didn't have tons of other games to improve upon.  None of the infinity engine games are actually a "great game" in my opinion with the exception of maybe Baldur's Gate 2.

[Malekith]

 

Baldur's Gate is the biggest disappointment since The Phantom Menace. There's literally nothing I like about it. The combat is a repetitive, slogging chore, the dialog with its godawful pseudo-medievalese feels like it was written by a somewhat dim 14-year-old, the humor would only be funny if you were that 14-year-old's stoner friend, the characters are irritating and dopey, the voice acting is uninspired, the music irritating and forgettable, the scenery is repetitive, generic, and unimaginative, and the quests are generic. The gameplay overall feels like neverending busywork, do-this, do-that, but mostly just trek around and save and load a lot. Yech. Awful. I hope P:E takes nothing at all from that turd. I mean seriously people, this, a classic FFS?

You probably just don't like one or two aspects about it, and now you're trying to make the game look bad as a whole.

The music, while perhaps no masterpiece, was above average. The candlekeep track is even one of my all time favorites.

It's not like the combat was much different from Icewind Dale. Icewind Dale was harder, but that's about it. If anything, Baldurs Gate had more combat with other adventuring/mercanary groups, which I think is always the best part. 

 

And you can't really compare the characters to, let's say, the one's of Planescape. Baldurs Gate I never demanded to be an "adult", realistic or particularly intelligent game, it was more of a fun game most of the time, that didn't take itself very seriously. Minsk, Edwin, Xan, Kagain all were rather caricative characters, or well, just dopey. But I don't think Bioware made such a bad job there.

 

>>pretty much the only thing I could put in BG1's favour is "explorability", and even that is debatable.

No it isn't. 

 

It is.BG1 was the weakest of the IE games and the "explorability" of half-empty maps was one of the worst things in it.

On the other hand BG2 was the best of the IE games(with Torment very slightly behind) so I'm not bashing Bioware.But the first BG was average to good, but nothing special

Edited March 5, 2013 by Malekith

[Malekith]

*coughs* rose colored glasses much Junta?  Planescape is a downright crap game with a good story and Baldur's Gate 1 is a downright average game with an okay story.  I am more forgiving of Baldur's Gate because it came first, they didn't have tons of other games to improve upon.  None of the infinity engine games are actually a "great game" in my opinion with the exception of maybe Baldur's Gate 2.

We will agree to disagree then.For me Planescape:Torment is the best RPG ever made. I personally like BG2 slightly better but i'm aware that it is because of nostalgia as BG2 was the first RPG i played. I played Torment 2 years ago so there are no rose colored glasses in my case. It is a masterpiece.

Thats the reason i'm so excited about P:E.BG2 with Torment's writting and story(i hope walls of text included,i love them) and a couple of IWD dungeons? My dream game.

 

Also, i'm curious. Tell me 3 games that have better story and atmosphere than Torment. I would like to play them

 

 

 

For the complain that some people have that Torment was like a book, i don't see them complain for the modern game's direction "games like a movie". For me for a game to be more booklike is way better than the whole "cinematic" excperience, and a wall of descriptive text is way better than a cutscene

Edited March 5, 2013 by Malekith

[Co0n]

BG1 has awesome look and feel, a super stunning story and great characters.

The music still reminds me of the good old times of playing BG1 with my brother and when I replayed it last year it was still better than any modern RPG

[Malekith]

BG1 has awesome look and feel, a super stunning story and great characters.

The music still reminds me of the good old times of playing BG1 with my brother and when I replayed it last year it was still better than any modern RPG

From modern RPGs i agree. Way better. From the other IE games? No.

[Sacred_Path]

BG1 has awesome look and feel, a super stunning story and great characters.

This might be the game you've been waiting for:

 

[Iucounu]

The BG 1 NPC Project is superbly done

I fully agree. The BG 1 NPC Project actually was the best game experience I ever had, along with the Longer Road mod from BG II TOB. Although on the latter, tastes might differ..

 

It is.BG1 was the weakest of the IE games and the "explorability" of half-empty maps was one of the worst things in it.

It isn't. Must I say much more? I don't consider the half-empty maps as something bad. I mean, that's just how it usually is in the wilderness.

And of course you're entitled to your opinion. But many people regard explorability as one of the good things in BG I, even if they don't  like the game much as a whole. 

 

I figure that if one has first played IWD and BG II combatwise, BG I might appear rather underwhelming. But overall, it's not a bad game. It has not all elements that a modern game should have, so naturally, today's players find it lacking. But the things it does, in my opinion, it does very well. 

Edited March 5, 2013 by Iucounu

[Sacred_Path]

Must I say much more? I don't consider the half-empty maps as something bad. I mean, that's just how it usually is in the wilderness.

Not if we can believe the Might&Magic series, it isn't. The wilderness is actually a great place to conceal your treasure chests, fountains and crazy powerful hermits' huts, which is why you walk into one wherever you step.

 

But if I had to choose between empty maps and high fantasy retardism, I'd choose the latter. Simply more fun.

[Iucounu]

Depends on the setting. I also like the Might&Magic games, but I don't think "high fantasy retardism" is something for every game. 

Edited March 5, 2013 by Iucounu

[Malekith]

Depends on the setting. I also like the Might&Magic games, but I don't think "high fantasy retardism" is something for every game. 

BG1 was indeed not a bad game. In fact was way better than modern RPGs. But compaired with the other IE games?

As for explorability as one of the good things in BG I hated it, you liked it, and that's why the OP said its debatable.

Was the wild areas more "realistically" empty in BG1 than BG2? Yes.

Was that a good thing? Many say no, some say yes. Debatable.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Malekith

[PrimeJunta]

Right, "everything modern is excrement." Now who's the hipster?

[Malekith]

Right, "everything modern is excrement." Now who's the hipster?

Not everething modern is excrement. Every modern RPG is below the IE games? Hell yes.

I liked NWN2, Mask of the Betrayer, DA:O, New Vegas, Wither 2. None  of them comes close to BG2 or Torment. Mask of the Betrayer comes closer.In fact if not for the awful camera and controls it would be on par with Black Isle games.

But other than that that five games we hadn't have a good RPG the last years. And if NWN2  OC is a good RPG is dabatable by others

[JFSOCC]

I only recently played the first Baldurs gate, so I won't have the context in which it was released, but I did not feel the game was engaging, maybe I would have in the past, I don't know. If that's the case it didn't age well, at any rate. I couldn't bring myself to finish (enhanced edition) I made it to nashkell, and even the minds, via a vast detour due to my poor navigational skills. Jaheira grating that we really ought to get going. (Yes, I'm trying that, thank you) when I did go past one of those maps, I made it a point to explore it all, but wilderness is boring. I want to see the city, it might be better, but the game has been idle at that point for over a month, I can't bring myself to it.

And you might argue that the city is fantastic, but the game failed to catch my attention, it failed to engage me, and I shouldn't have to suffer through for a promise of fun later.

 

I can forgive a game many flaws, if it can deliver engaging story and gameplay. As long as any game breaking bugs don't ruin my saves, and halt progress, I will play something I find beautiful.

 

For this reason I like Knights of the Old Republic II even though it is a broken and unfinished game. What I played through was wonderful and atmospheric, I felt part of the story. I felt dialogue was directed at me, rather than a character, and I did what I chose to do.

The first game was an ok game, but I was the observer, it didn't happen to me. KotOR II made you part of it. I was having a philosophical discussion with a fricking game.

 

So of course, I didn't manage succeed at half of what I wanted to achieve in that game, but at the end I felt I was taken on a ride. And that horribly open ended ending cutscene just had me screaming in agony and wondering what happened.

Not telling everything leaves a lot to the imagination, and I believe adds to the mystique of a world, not detracts. Not everything needs explaining.

 

That's a game I can fall in love with, despite a face which only a mother would love.

All the IE games which I played were deeply flawed. Which I think is understandable, there's a **** lot required to make everything work in an environment accepting so many inputs. These days there are more tools and it's somewhat easier.

 

Baldurs gate 2 punished my noobieness everywhere, but just walking through the city and wondering what I might find, it was so content laden. I could just keep going and finding things I could do. And they were diverse, Breaking in and stealing a bird, mastering the course in the thieves guild, finding someone buried alive in a graveyard, that ****ing graveyard, that'll teach me to want to rob tombs. It was an adventure, and that's what I took from it.

 

Neverwinter nights was more of a game I used to pass the time, it was OK for me, my noobieness in this game didn't give me a different experience, but it gave me less of one. There's just not enough content in the game. In Baldurs II gate you have to have played through a significant amount of content or you can't proceed the story, but this encourages you to do stuff in a fun and engaging way.

 

Now there is a team of artists, who all used to work on games I love, and claim that their next project is their passion project, what they always wanted to do. To take the best of the games they made, and shed the mistakes they've made. and make a whole new game, which will recreate the experience of the past, but better.

 

Yeah, that's a pitch that won me over.

[PrimeJunta]

"Every modern RPG is below the IE games? Hell yes."

 

I disagree, sort of.

 

PS:T is in a class of its own, yes, but there are several (more) modern cRPG's that I'd rank higher than the next-best IE game (BG2). Both Witchers, VtM: Bloodlines, and Mask of the Betrayer to name three.

 

As to PS:T, the strengths of it are in the imagination, the story, and the way it constantly surprises, delights, and amazes you. That has nothing to do with the IE as such. Its wine would have been just as heady in a completely different skin.

[Kissamies]

Mask of the Betrayer comes closer.In fact if not for the awful camera and controls it would be on par with Black Isle games.

People always complain about the camera in NWN2. I don't get it. I admit that it's not great, but once you set it up and stick to the mode that actually works, there's nothing wrong with it. Did you guys try to use the character mode in combat or something? Character mode is for those rare occasions when you want to run through a large already cleared area.

[Alexjh]

 

Mask of the Betrayer comes closer.In fact if not for the awful camera and controls it would be on par with Black Isle games.

People always complain about the camera in NWN2. I don't get it. I admit that it's not great, but once you set it up and stick to the mode that actually works, there's nothing wrong with it. Did you guys try to use the character mode in combat or something? Character mode is for those rare occasions when you want to run through a large already cleared area.

 

I found that to be the one big reason I can't rate MotB anywhere near the IE games, the whole experience was marred for me by having to constantly wrestle the camera - really in a 3D top down game the camera movement should be intuitive to the point where you don't notice using it really, but that thing was just nasty. 

[Malekith]

"Every modern RPG is below the IE games? Hell yes."

 

I disagree, sort of.

 

PS:T is in a class of its own, yes, but there are several (more) modern cRPG's that I'd rank higher than the next-best IE game (BG2). Both Witchers, VtM: Bloodlines, and Mask of the Betrayer to name three.

 

As to PS:T, the strengths of it are in the imagination, the story, and the way it constantly surprises, delights, and amazes you. That has nothing to do with the IE as such. Its wine would have been just as heady in a completely different skin.

If you talk strictly about story,i sort of agree. As i said the reason i don't rate MotB higher is the 3D camera and controls. If someone made Mask of the Betrayer as a BG2 mod i would have rated it just below Planescape. 

That is subjective, but i hated Witcher's actiony combat. Bloodlines have a similar problem. Boring combat, plus in the last part of the game Troika droped the ball and made it a series of boring combat encounters, similar with what happened to KotOR 2.

[PrimeJunta]

@Malekith: can't argue with that. I'm generally fairly agnostic regarding the style of a game or the engine with which it's made. I enjoy twitch just as much as turn-based, as long as it's well done. Twitcher 2 was good twitch; Twitcher 1 was tolerable twitch, and Bloodlines was headdeskingly bad twitch, so much that it seriously detracted from the game. KOTOR 2 was tolerable RTwP IMO. It would've been better in isometric format as the party aspect of it was pretty much lost in the over-the-shoulder perspective.

 

The NWN2 camera was a real beast to tame, but I have to agree with Kissamies (moro, Suomi hyvin edustettuna täällä näköjään) that it's not so bad once you find the settings that work for you. The real problem is the amount of headdesking needed to get to that point -- more so because it's totally unnecessary since a fixed camera would've gotten the job done with much les fuss.

[Malekith]

@Malekith: can't argue with that. I'm generally fairly agnostic regarding the style of a game or the engine with which it's made. I enjoy twitch just as much as turn-based, as long as it's well done. Twitcher 2 was good twitch; Twitcher 1 was tolerable twitch, and Bloodlines was headdeskingly bad twitch, so much that it seriously detracted from the game. KOTOR 2 was tolerable RTwP IMO. It would've been better in isometric format as the party aspect of it was pretty much lost in the over-the-shoulder perspective.

 

The NWN2 camera was a real beast to tame, but I have to agree with Kissamies (moro, Suomi hyvin edustettuna täällä näköjään) that it's not so bad once you find the settings that work for you. The real problem is the amount of headdesking needed to get to that point -- more so because it's totally unnecessary since a fixed camera would've gotten the job done with much les fuss.

Yes, my problem with most moderm games is not the content per se( at least for Obsidian titles) but the gameplay. I like isometric ,party, preferable 2D, story focused,text heavy with no twitchy gameplay. The farther a game moves from this, it will be more dificult for me to enjoy it. I'm an Obsidian fanboy, but i prefered their games when they were Black Isle.

To like a game that is first person, with twitch gameplay the other aspects of the game must be exceptional. Bloodlines comes closer. It's one of my favorite games, but i can't replay it for any reason and thats because of the gameplay, whereas i have replayed BG2 around 60 times (i know i'm sick),and Torment once a year.

From Troika i prefered Arcanum to Bloodlines.

I'm not really one of the "hardcore" Codex crowd, i prefer RTwP than TB, not i have a problem with TB. But realtime actiony combat feels like a chore to me. I don't understand how TB feels boring to some people when Twitchy means doing the same thing again and again and again 90% of the time.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Malekith

[Karkarov]

 

Right, "everything modern is excrement." Now who's the hipster?

Not everething modern is excrement. Every modern RPG is below the IE games? Hell yes.

I liked NWN2, Mask of the Betrayer, DA:O, New Vegas, Wither 2. None  of them comes close to BG2 or Torment. Mask of the Betrayer comes closer.In fact if not for the awful camera and controls it would be on par with Black Isle games.

But other than that that five games we hadn't have a good RPG the last years. And if NWN2  OC is a good RPG is dabatable by others

That's so wrong it isn't even funny.  Other than BG2 I would play NWN 2 over any Infinity Engine game.  Better gameplay, better graphics, better characters in your party for the most part, better customization, actually mostly faithful to the source material, not so anti trope it is a trope.  I am sorry but it takes more than a "story" to be a good game, but while we are at it the story of NWN2 is actually perfectly fine anyway.

 

I would rather play any of the elder scrolls games from Morrowind up than any of the Infinity engine games, Mass Efffect 1 is a better game than any infinity engine game, Witcher 2 is better than any infinity engine game in all but the story department, Dragon Age: Origins IS an infinity engine game just with better gameplay.  There are many games these days that even blend RPG elements I would rather play than any infinity engine game too.   Such as Dues Ex HR. 

 

I am sorry but games have gotten a lot better since planescape torment and I dare say planescape torment would have been better as an adventure game to begin with.  It's mechanics are total garbage and it is un-fun to play.  Meanwhile why is planescape even a part of the name it isn't faithful to the source material, it was money wasted on a license they went out of their way to not use and or butcher.  And by the way the story isn't that good, it isn't bad, but it is no where near what it needs to be to carry the broken mess that the mechanics are for anyone who has any standards of what is actually fun to play.

 

In fact if I were to do a thesis on how not to make a RPG I would use Planescape Torment as my topic.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Karkarov

[Alexjh]

 

 

Right, "everything modern is excrement." Now who's the hipster?

Not everething modern is excrement. Every modern RPG is below the IE games? Hell yes.

I liked NWN2, Mask of the Betrayer, DA:O, New Vegas, Wither 2. None  of them comes close to BG2 or Torment. Mask of the Betrayer comes closer.In fact if not for the awful camera and controls it would be on par with Black Isle games.

But other than that that five games we hadn't have a good RPG the last years. And if NWN2  OC is a good RPG is dabatable by others

That's so wrong it isn't even funny.  Other than BG2 I would play NWN 2 over any Infinity Engine game.  Better gameplay, better graphics, better characters in your party for the most part, better customization, actually mostly faithful to the source material, not so anti trope it is a trope.  I am sorry but it takes more than a "story" to be a good game, but while we are at it the story of NWN2 is actually perfectly fine anyway.

 

I would rather play any of the elder scrolls games from Morrowind up than any of the Infinity engine games, Mass Efffect 1 is a better game than any infinity engine game, Witcher 2 is better than any infinity engine game in all but the story department, Dragon Age: Origins IS an infinity engine game just with better gameplay.  There are many games these days that even blend RPG elements I would rather play than any infinity engine game too.   Such as Dues Ex HR. 

 

I am sorry but games have gotten a lot better since planescape torment and I dare say planescape torment would have been better as an adventure game to begin with.  It's mechanics are total garbage and it is un-fun to play.  Meanwhile why is planescape even a part of the name it isn't faithful to the source material, it was money wasted on a license they went out of their way to not use and or butcher.  And by the way the story isn't that good, it isn't bad, but it is no where near what it needs to be to carry the broken mess that the mechanics are for anyone who has any standards of what is actually fun to play.

 

In fact if I were to do a thesis on how not to make a RPG I would use Planescape Torment as my topic.

 

Controversial arguements, and while I see your point on some of them I think you are missing a few key factors here.  For the record I don't consider IE games fundementally better - I'd personally rank my top 5 RPGs as (in no particular order) Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale II, Mass Effect 2, Vampire: Bloodlines and Knights of the Old Republic 2.  

 

The thing about the IE engines is that they were really "rounded" examples of the genre that haven't got any glaring weaknesses, but aren't (for the most part) the top of any of their games.  I'd argue that the IE games - specifically BG2 and IWD2 are about the most tactically nuanced RPGs with the single exception of ToEE.  While they run off the same rulesets, Neverwinter Nights 1 suffered from only controlling 1 character directly and NWN2 suffered from having less complex enemy encounters and a fairly shallow selection of enemies.  

 

The ones I disagree with you particularly on are the Dragon Age thing - DA is only anything like an Infinity Engine game at first glance, and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed both games to varying degrees, but the tactical depth is just absent.  A mage can have access to like, 20 spells?  Each skill only has 4 (or was it 5?) ranks?  Therer are less than 15 broad enemy types in the whole game?  Only 3 classes and 3 races, plus one of those utterly vague stat systems that lacks any depth?  It did have better companion dialogue to all but Torment but that's about the only thing I could hold up as being a consistant improvement.

 

The other one particularly I'd note is Oblivion - really?  Oblivion is better than IE games how?  I'd even argue that despite being exponentially higher tech it has aged far far far worse visually as it has sagged into the depths of the uncanny valley.  Again I don't consider it a bad game, but it is definitly a game with a setting with no memorable features, a plot driven by doing the same task repeatedly (I honeslty just was fed up with Oblivion gates... after about the second) and it's main characters are overshadowed by their voice actors to the point where I still think of them as Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean. If anything, I'd consider Oblivion to have a lot of qualities for that thesis of yours. 

[Malekith]

 

 

Right, "everything modern is excrement." Now who's the hipster?

Not everething modern is excrement. Every modern RPG is below the IE games? Hell yes.

I liked NWN2, Mask of the Betrayer, DA:O, New Vegas, Wither 2. None  of them comes close to BG2 or Torment. Mask of the Betrayer comes closer.In fact if not for the awful camera and controls it would be on par with Black Isle games.

But other than that that five games we hadn't have a good RPG the last years. And if NWN2  OC is a good RPG is dabatable by others

That's so wrong it isn't even funny.  Other than BG2 I would play NWN 2 over any Infinity Engine game.  Better gameplay, better graphics, better characters in your party for the most part, better customization, actually mostly faithful to the source material, not so anti trope it is a trope.  I am sorry but it takes more than a "story" to be a good game, but while we are at it the story of NWN2 is actually perfectly fine anyway.

 

I would rather play any of the elder scrolls games from Morrowind up than any of the Infinity engine games, Mass Efffect 1 is a better game than any infinity engine game, Witcher 2 is better than any infinity engine game in all but the story department, Dragon Age: Origins IS an infinity engine game just with better gameplay.  There are many games these days that even blend RPG elements I would rather play than any infinity engine game too.   Such as Dues Ex HR. 

 

I am sorry but games have gotten a lot better since planescape torment and I dare say planescape torment would have been better as an adventure game to begin with.  It's mechanics are total garbage and it is un-fun to play.  Meanwhile why is planescape even a part of the name it isn't faithful to the source material, it was money wasted on a license they went out of their way to not use and or butcher.  And by the way the story isn't that good, it isn't bad, but it is no where near what it needs to be to carry the broken mess that the mechanics are for anyone who has any standards of what is actually fun to play.

 

In fact if I were to do a thesis on how not to make a RPG I would use Planescape Torment as my topic.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera

It seems many people disagree with you.

As for the rest of your post, let's agree to disagree. You are the person who said once that DA2 has better gameplay than IE games. Your tastes are completelly ****ed up alien to me. We'll never agree.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Malekith

[Razsius]

You're breaking my heart Prime.  I think my avatar's a dead giveaway that i'm a BG fan at heart.  I don't even know where to begin to be honest as we seem to be completely opposite in how we view what makes a good game or not.  Baldur's Gate is OLD for one (we've talking close to 15 years here) and came at a time where close to every game was holding your hand as you played it.  Even Morrowind which is probably my favorite open ended variant or some of the Gothics wouldn't kick you in the nuts quite as hard as BG could if you strayed off the path slightly.  Basilisks were the definition of death and you could easily run into them if you didn't watch it.  Tack on some of the other nasty creatures you could bump into and the game could end up being a "How I died in the Forgotten Realms" the video game.

 

It kind of reminded me of my masochistic DM in my D&D days without his overly large ego.  The game let you do what you wanted... but you paid for it.  Still, despite the difficulty level, it rewarded you for exploring it's "depths".  Hidden treasure, way the hell out of the way side quests, enemies *worth* fighting (not the Raz falls asleep on keyboard and enemy dies type) and a horribly varied landscape.  Even it's bare bones maps gave you a specific feel because you're out in the wilderness (which is very open in real life and in the game).  Playing BG felt like playing D&D on my computer.  As for the story, music and VA we'll just simply have to disagree.  The opening BG title, the Cloakwood forest theme, even the Friendly Arm theme is all great atmospheric music.  Concerning the VAs, if Sarevok or the narrator don't impress you then I really don't what to say.  To be honest i'm a little curious what you'll say about the BG II music.

 

Planescape: Torment however, will require a point in time where I have a little more time to express my thoughts.  I suppose i'll save that for later.

 

Oh and let's leave the hyperbole for someone else Prime.  If a 14+ year old *could* write a better score/story/jokes/whatever for Baldur's Gate then it would be dead easy for *you* to do so.

 

@Malekith

 

 

http://www.kickstart...des-of-numenera

It seems many people disagree with you.

As for the rest of your post, let's agree to disagree. You are the
person who said once that DA2 has better gameplay than IE games. Your
tastes are completelly ****ed up alien to me. We'll never agree.

 

Pointing to Tides of Numenera is not concrete evidence that people who enjoyed Planescape would back it.  Torment: Numenera *already* looks a hell of a lot better then Planescape was.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Razsius