Steam Sux! andor Rox!

[alanschu]

 

I am sure this is a case of Steam approaching certain ISP and allowing them to host the Steam software repository , of course it benefits both parties but I think this is a value add so that customers in certain countries get quicker speeds?

 

It makes more sense for it to be an ISP initiative, not a Steam one.  If a lot of people are downloading off of Steam, the ISP benefits by caching the common files (they typically cache anyways) as it saves them the money of using the actual internet bandwidth.

[Zoraptor]

Domestic inter ISP traffic is still far cheaper than international bandwidth as it uses domestic bandwidth which is practically unlimited compared to international, so it still saves money even if your ISP isn't actually running the server. Valve servers are clearly marked on the list, everything else too. I think there is a way to check which server you're connected to (? it may be just specifying a server to get unmetered traffic from your own ISP), but I don't know what it is.

[BruceVC]

 

I am sure this is a case of Steam approaching certain ISP and allowing them to host the Steam software repository , of course it benefits both parties but I think this is a value add so that customers in certain countries get quicker speeds?

 

It makes more sense for it to be an ISP initiative, not a Steam one.  If a lot of people are downloading off of Steam, the ISP benefits by caching the common files (they typically cache anyways) as it saves them the money of using the actual internet bandwidth.

 

I hear you but there is a difference between an ISP caching server and the entire Steam software database being available locally. But maybe someone can find a link to confirm what you guys are saying?

[Zoraptor]

[..]Unfortunately New Zealand didn’t quite make the cut to get one of Valve’s Steam
Content Servers, so TelstraClear has set up our own. This means we can cache
Steam games locally for our customers. However, the way the Steam system has
been designed, means that we cannot control and therefore cannot guarantee that all your Steam download activity will be directed through the TelstraClear Steam Content Server - the Steam system will automatically direct your download activity based on a number of factors (including the location of the nearest Steam Content Server, how busy that Server is, and whether or not the particular game is available on that Server).

If all or any part of your Steam download activity is directed to the TelstraClear Steam Content Server, then we will not charge you any data usage charges for the portion of your download activity that is directed to the TelstraClear Steam Content Server (by caching the games locally on our Steam Content Server, we are able to make sure this download activity does not impact your usage allowance).

However, if all or any part of your Steam download activity is directed to another Steam Content Server (or some other distribution channel, such as HTTP servers), then you will incur data usage charges for that portion of your download activity. [..]
Sauce

[Katphood]

I think I started using steam when the 'SiN Episodes: Emergence' game came out and I thought to myself: "wow, this is pure nostalgia. I remember playing that awesome SiN game back in 1998...I have to play this!". That's when I first started using steam. I think I'll play it again sometime in the coming weeks, though this time around, 'SiN Episodes: Emergence' is the game that will be bringing back memories.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Astiaks

[Dream]

About Steam as a distribution model is nothing wrong, the problem is Steam as DRM, because people who do not like some "features" of Steamworks do not have possibility to play Fallout: New Vegas on PC for example...

What's wrong with Steam as DRM though? This isn't exactly Starforce we're talking about here.

Yep, no benefit. There are other programs I can use to do all of those things, no need for steam, hence no benefit.

That's like saying there's no benefit to programming languages since you can code everything in binary, or no benefit to cars since you can walk everywhere. Steam makes doing things you could do before easier.

 

Also I thought you were all about competition so how is another program doing something a current program already does a bad thing?

[alanschu]

 

Also I thought you were all about competition so how is another program doing something a current program already does a bad thing?

 

The issue with Steam is that it can be restrictive towards competition through things like Steamworks.

 

The counterpoint to that is that developers see Steamworks as an asset, and given that Steam is so prolific, not a significant cost.  It undermines other digital distributors though, as in order to provide the game, they must also provide access to a competitor's software that ultimately could remove business from them (I don't know if they still do, but I remember when GamersGate had a policy to not stock games with Steamworks, since the inclusion of Steamworks meant that Gamersgate had to provide the customer with access to a competitor).

 

I know some companies are hesitant about Steam, since financing Steam finances Valve, which makes competing game products.  Since (unlike something like Gamersgate) it never has separated itself from the game development aspect (Gamersgate used to be a part of Paradox Interactive, but no longer is), the potential for abuse is there as there is a conflict of interest.  Although personally I think this is overstated as Valve isn't really in the game development business anymore anyways.

[BruceVC]

[..]Unfortunately New Zealand didn’t quite make the cut to get one of Valve’s Steam

Content Servers, so TelstraClear has set up our own. This means we can cache

Steam games locally for our customers. However, the way the Steam system has

been designed, means that we cannot control and therefore cannot guarantee that all your Steam download activity will be directed through the TelstraClear Steam Content Server - the Steam system will automatically direct your download activity based on a number of factors (including the location of the nearest Steam Content Server, how busy that Server is, and whether or not the particular game is available on that Server).

 

If all or any part of your Steam download activity is directed to the TelstraClear Steam Content Server, then we will not charge you any data usage charges for the portion of your download activity that is directed to the TelstraClear Steam Content Server (by caching the games locally on our Steam Content Server, we are able to make sure this download activity does not impact your usage allowance).

 

However, if all or any part of your Steam download activity is directed to another Steam Content Server (or some other distribution channel, such as HTTP servers), then you will incur data usage charges for that portion of your download activity. [..]

Sauce

 

 

Thanks for this link, I'll make the same inquiries at the South African ISP to confirm its the same setup. I use to work for the holding company of those ISP so I know loads of people who can answer.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well this looks like it could get ugly........

 

Hats off to Zoraptor, takes balls to piss on the Steam anthill.

[Zoraptor]

Pish, what are they going to do, reach through my monitor and beat me senseless with their inflatable GabeN Real Dolls? Doesn't take any courage to be contrarian on the internet. Might take some finesse and patience not to come across as a troll trolling, of course, but that works both ways.

That's like saying there's no benefit to programming languages since you can code everything in binary, or no benefit to cars since you can walk everywhere.

That's facile- I can say that MSOffice provides no benefit without having to code a word processor myself, if Open Office exists and I'm happy with it. And yeah, if I live five minutes from the supermarket and where I work then I would not get any benefit from a car which outweighs the costs.

Also I thought you were all about competition so how is another program doing something a current program already does a bad thing?

In addition to what Allan said, I thought the comparison to IE would make it obvious why it isn't good- theoretically IE was 'good' because it was added competition, practically though? It was an attempt to subsume opposition with loss leading and bundling. Competition is good, using your position to leverage a monopoly is bad bad bad whoever does it.

[BruceVC]

Well this looks like it could get ugly........

 

Hats off to Zoraptor, takes balls to piss on the Steam anthill.

 

I like his post because it encourages debate but its easy to find people who dislike Steam and for some its hip and vogue to be anti-establishment.

 

So I don't see his post as having balls just interesting and relevant as people do discuss this.

[Orchomene]

To give my two cents...

 

I'm not an online gamer. Thus, Steam offers me no advantage at all. For me, Steam offers a service not to the gamers but to the publishers. That's it.

Before, I liked having physical copies of my games. Then, all of a sudden, games required to have always the cd in the driver to be able to play the game... Like when there was no hard disk. Thus, playing on a laptop and having to take all the CDs/DVDs of the games I may want to play when I travel is a burden.

That's why I'm now into DD. A lot less of issues when travelling (at least in the same country).

 

But now, there are also DRM issues with DD. Thus Steam.

If I have the opportunity, I'd rather buy my games on GoG first, then on GamersGate. It's a lot easier, a lot less intrusive and often cheapier (generally, if there is a special offer on Steam, there is an equivalent one on gamersgate).

But I can't always do that. sometimes it may be a Steam exclusivity. So, if the game requires Steamworks, it may be possible to buy it on Gamersgate, get a steam key and download it on Steam (that's what I do, often cheaper and I'd rather give my money to gamersgate than valve).

 

In the end, I have nothing against Steam.

I have something against the security-freaks-afraid-of-piracy that are the publishers (a good part of the publishers at least) that drove me from physical copy games (because of copy protections) and that oblige me to use Steam which is worse than most of the other DD oportunities.

[Mamoulian War]

 

About Steam as a distribution model is nothing wrong, the problem is Steam as DRM, because people who do not like some "features" of Steamworks do not have possibility to play Fallout: New Vegas on PC for example...

What's wrong with Steam as DRM though? This isn't exactly Starforce we're talking about here.

>>Yep, no benefit. There are other programs I can use to do all of those things, no need for steam, hence no benefit.

That's like saying there's no benefit to programming languages since you can code everything in binary, or no benefit to cars since you can walk everywhere. Steam makes doing things you could do before easier.

 

Also I thought you were all about competition so how is another program doing something a current program already does a bad thing?

 

 

Why you can not accept that some people are having issues with program running in the background and having all of their games under one account, which can be hacked, and than having troubles with customer support... We do not force you to stop using Steam, if you love it, so stop us forcing to use Steam, if we do not like it... Having more options is good, having only one option, is bad... mkay?

 

I still have not working Counter-Strike (it was retail copy which I purchased before Steam even existed, but with 1.6 they forced us all to go the Steam only route), because somebody stolen my key with keylogger and registered it with their account (I was young and stupid and did not have a clue about viruses and how to defend against them at that time)... And customer support was not willing to help me...

Edited February 24, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[Dream]

That's facile- I can say that MSOffice provides no benefit without having to code a word processor myself, if Open Office exists and I'm happy with it.

So what you're saying you don't care about a lack of choice as long as the option you're happy with exists. Sounds familiar.

The rest is just frustration at, well, steamtards. The sort of people who celebrate lack of choice because the only choice is one that they like.

Why you can not accept that some people are having issues with program running in the background

Yea dude, Valve is totally going to steal all your financial information.

and having all of their games under one account, which can be hacked

I can see how that's a valid concern; there are probably thousands of hackers in China waiting with bated breath to get their hands on your video games.

 

Additionally (to everyone who's hating on Steam), Steam is optional; no one is forcing you to use it. Just buy non-Steam copies of games.

[ShadySands]

A lot of games have Steam as a requirement, so you are forced to use it... or not play the games.

[Malcador]

Steam's ok mainly for the sales, I'll get a hard copy otherwise.  Don't really use it for the community or any other nonsense, friends have IM and Vent for that.

[Mamoulian War]

 

That's facile- I can say that MSOffice provides no benefit without having to code a word processor myself, if Open Office exists and I'm happy with it.

So what you're saying you don't care about a lack of choice as long as the option you're happy with exists. Sounds familiar.

>>The rest is just frustration at, well, steamtards. The sort of people who celebrate lack of choice because the only choice is one that they like.

Why you can not accept that some people are having issues with program running in the background

Yea dude, Valve is totally going to steal all your financial information.

and having all of their games under one account, which can be hacked

I can see how that's a valid concern; there are probably thousands of hackers in China waiting with bated breath to get their hands on your video games.

 

Additionally (to everyone who's hating on Steam), Steam is optional; no one is forcing you to use it. Just buy non-Steam copies of games.

 

 

Every program running in the background is a potentional risk to the safety of your PC.

 

Here are some examples of Steam exploits which can lead to hijacking your PC...

 

http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/10/steam-vulnerability-can-lead-to-remote-insertion-of-malicious-code/

 

http://www.exploit-db.com/exploits/17459/

 

And as I said, I got already one game stolen from me...

 

 

Ok show me then, non-Steam version of New Vegas so I can finally play it on my PC...

Edited February 25, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[LadyCrimson]

Additionally (to everyone who's hating on Steam), Steam is optional; no one is forcing you to use it. Just buy non-Steam copies of games.

As others have said, some games (more all the time seems like, altho that trend may not last, who knows) require Steamworks. You can often still buy a physical disc of the game, but on the box it'll say somewhere "Steamworks account required" or whatever. Thus you have a disc, but must still create a Steam account, download Steam and install it/have it running in order to authenticate and play the game. No Steam, no play.

[Dream]

Every program running in the background is a potentional risk to the safety of your PC.

And every time you leave the house you can get hit by a car; **** happens. But if you're that paranoid then I guess just don't use Steam, or any program for that matter. Or computers in general.

Ok show me then, non-Steam version of New Vegas so I can finally play it on my PC...

A lot of games have Steam as a requirement, so you are forced to use it... or not play the games.

As others have said, some games (more all the time seems like, altho that trend may not last, who knows) require Steamworks. You can often still buy a physical disc of the game, but on the box it'll say somewhere "Steamworks account required" or whatever. Thus you have a disc, but must still create a Steam account, download Steam and install it/have it running in order to authenticate and play the game. No Steam, no play.

How is it Valve's fault that devs are too lazy to make alternate versions? That's like saying it's Microsoft's fault when a game only gets released on Xbox. Edited February 25, 2013 by Dream

[HoonDing]

At least they're not making money off abandonware. :slight trollface:

[Mamoulian War]

 

Every program running in the background is a potentional risk to the safety of your PC.

And every time you leave the house you can get hit by a car; **** happens. But if you're that paranoid then I guess just don't use Steam, or any program for that matter. Or computers in general.

>>>Ok show me then, non-Steam version of New Vegas so I can finally play it on my PC...

A lot of games have Steam as a requirement, so you are forced to use it... or not play the games.

As others have said, some games (more all the time seems like, altho that trend may not last, who knows) require Steamworks. You can often still buy a physical disc of the game, but on the box it'll say somewhere "Steamworks account required" or whatever. Thus you have a disc, but must still create a Steam account, download Steam and install it/have it running in order to authenticate and play the game. No Steam, no play.

How is it Valve's fault that devs are too lazy to make alternate versions? That's like saying it's Microsoft's fault when a game only gets released on Xbox.

 

 

You might get hit by a car when you walk around, but I do you willingly go and run across the road when there is fast car approaching to your position? This is the same situation as willingly allowing a software to compromise your security...

 

Because last time I heard, PC was rumored to be an "open" platform... And yes, Microsoft is at fault for releasing few games as Xbox only...

Edited February 25, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[AwesomeOcelot]

Every program running in the background is a potentional risk to the safety of your PC.

 

Here are some examples of Steam exploits which can lead to hijacking your PC...

 

http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/10/steam-vulnerability-can-lead-to-remote-insertion-of-malicious-code/

 

http://www.exploit-db.com/exploits/17459/

 

And as I said, I got already one game stolen from me...

 

 

Ok show me then, non-Steam version of New Vegas so I can finally play it on my PC...

If you've allowed malicious code to run on Windows XP SP3 then Steam is not the only vector for privilege escalation. This is more a consequence of Steam being popular, malware is going to target software that's installed on millions of machines, some games without any DRM are going to have bugs that can be exploited for privilege escalation.

 

The browser launch exploit is down to the user and the browser mostly. All the browsers you should be using ask for confirmation, you can also easily disable it on Opera, couldn't find a way on Firefox other than direct it to a different exe, and Chrome doesn't even have it. Is Valve stupid for having this in the first place? Yes, it's an incredibly stupid idea, but it's not forced on people.

[Mamoulian War]

I know it is not forced, therefore I avoid it, and everybody knows Steam is very popular in the World, but the thing is, if they are having this trivial exploit in their product, and do not care about about addressing it, why should I believe, that such software developer have no other undiscovered flaws, maybe even bigger, within their system?

Edited February 25, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[alanschu]

 

http://arstechnica.c...malicious-code/

 

http://www.exploit-d...exploits/17459/

 

And as I said, I got already one game stolen from me...

 

Errr, the first link requires the user to actively choose to open a link that has the Steam URL (that then does something nefarious.  This is akin to someone foolishly clicking on a link in an email.  If you use a capable browser and don't autoload external links just by clicking on them, you sidestep the issue completely.  Unfortunately the details for how the second one can be exploited are a bit light.

 

As for "I had one game stolen from me already."  Well, maybe that just "says a lot about your personality."  You were stupid and got taken advantage of because you didn't know any better.  People can be just as stupid and let their houses get caught on fire or their doors wide open for people to come walking in and take their stuff.

 

The funny thing is, in that other thread it was someone else's problem, and their own damn fault that stuff fell into disrepair.  However, here, instead of going "whoops, I was stupid... but it was my fault" (you don't seem to be to willing to allow other people to make mistakes in their life because they are "young and stupid."), it's big bad Steam's.  No responsibility for making sure you don't do stupid things.  It's Steam's fault that you were stupid.

[Malcador]

So how'd you get a game stolen from you, Mamoulian, you giant idiot ?