Archery and arrow heads

[Lephys]

A suggestion I made earlier was to be able to buy an arrow "inventory" item representing a "stack of identical arrows" that effectively gets replenished from your infinite stash. The item has a "cool down" that simulates running out of your current stock. The item is similar to purchasing a lifetime supply of arrows; the merchant is gambling that the adventurer will die before they have used up more value in arrows than the supply is worth. For example, you may spend 500 g.p. to license an infinite supply of ordinary arrows.

 

Yeah it's not a perfect solution, but it may be much easier to manage the arrow supply this way.

That would work, but it seems to be more trouble for what amounts to the exact same benefit as just having ammo be recovered automatically via the per-encounter/per-day system (just like spells and abilities), and setting the prices for quivers and/or new arrow types accordingly. *shrug*

[JFSOCC]

I'm ok with paying for a type of quiver(representing lifetime supply) rather than individual arrows. You could still get individual ones of which you don't own a quiver.

Edited March 6, 2013 by JFSOCC

[AGX-17]

One word -

 

Boomerang Arrow. 

 

Ok, that is two words. It would be too awesome for just one word.

...Real boomerangs, as in the weapon type, did not come back, they either clobbered a critter on the head or they missed and ended up on the ground. Unless it's some ultimate magic indestructible arrow enchanted with "the Unstoppable Force" it can't possibly return to the shooter. Also how is the shooter supposed to catch it? It's got the Unstoppable Force, meaning nothing can stop it once loosed.

 

Since it's the ultimate magic indestructible arrow it will kill the shooter then fly through the world/ground and end up in space or the ether or what-have-you if P:E takes place on a planet. If it's some flat world existing in its own tiny self-contained bubble universe it would cause some kind of metaphysical paradox and pierce the universe or come out the other side and make that location a permanent death trap.

[Lephys]

 

 

One word -

 

Boomerang Arrow. 

 

Ok, that is two words. It would be too awesome for just one word.

...Real boomerangs, as in the weapon type, did not come back, they either clobbered a critter on the head or they missed and ended up on the ground. Unless it's some ultimate magic indestructible arrow enchanted with "the Unstoppable Force" it can't possibly return to the shooter. Also how is the shooter supposed to catch it? It's got the Unstoppable Force, meaning nothing can stop it once loosed.

 

Since it's the ultimate magic indestructible arrow it will kill the shooter then fly through the world/ground and end up in space or the ether or what-have-you if P:E takes place on a planet. If it's some flat world existing in its own tiny self-contained bubble universe it would cause some kind of metaphysical paradox and pierce the universe or come out the other side and make that location a permanent death trap.

 

 

Technically, all he said was "boomerang arrow," not "arrow that returns to you," so, by your own clarification, all he quite possibly meant was "an arrow that is launched from a bow, but behaves as a real life boomerang that doesn't return to the shooter."

 

Also, I would think nothing else could stop the boomerang with Unstoppable Force magic working on it, so it could still stop itself. Or, if the magic's driving its force, you could simply dispel it and it would stop.

 

Also, I don't think it would have to automatically be indestructible just because its force it's attempting to exert is infinite. The atmosphere doesn't stop meteoroids, but they still often burn up whilst the force with which they're traveling has them trying to penetrate the atmosphere.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Lephys

[TrashMan]

I think Tsuga's point was awesome regarding ammo management. In reality, an archer brings enough arrows to get the job done (relative to his skill), and knows how to retrieve them and such between battles. It is only through abstraction that this doesn't occur. So, it's folly to abstract away the ability to replenish arrows and such AND require ammo quantity management, on top of that.

 

 

Umm...archer regularly ran out of ammo in combat. Not all arrows are recoverable - you wont' find some, you won't be able to get to some, adn some will break.

 

Part of arrows spent being "replenished" makes sense. All of them? No way.

 

 

I also find the idea of carrying 400 arrows just as silly as carrying 10 sets of full plate in your backpack.

Yes, your archer shouldnt' be able to constantly use arrows. He should be forced to resort to melee occasionally.

Edited March 8, 2013 by TrashMan

[Lephys]

Umm...archer regularly ran out of ammo in combat. Not all arrows are recoverable - you wont' find some, you won't be able to get to some, adn some will break.

 

Part of arrows spent being "replenished" makes sense. All of them? No way.

I never said they didn't. And I never said all arrows were recoverable. Which is why I specifically suggested, a short bit back, that you only retrieve percentages of the arrows you fired (which would improve a bit as you progress, making cleaner shots, missing less, and just-plain knowing how to re-use more of your arrows. It's still abstracted into a single value, obviously. It's a cRPG...).

 

And all I meant by "an archer brings how many arrows he needs" is that, if you're going into organized warfare in an archery line, you're probably going to have several quivers of arrows (probably with people refilling them, even, sometimes) and not retrieve them for some time (as you're obviously not going to go sprinting down the hill to get 15 arrows back while hundreds of people are still engaging your force in combat). Whereas, if you're traveling about in a small group, as in RPGs, and fighting handfuls of bandits and other creatures, here and there, it would be more like hunting. You might bring a full quiver, plus some extras (maybe a secondary quiver? Or just another bundle to refill your quiver), but you're going to fire 10 or 15 arrows, then retrieve what you can (because you've killed everything.) You're not going to fight 7,000 arrows worth of stuff in a 10-minute span, so it doesn't really make sense that you should ever NEED to fire hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of arrows and worry that much with inventory management of arrows on a constant basis. That would be like a Fighter bringing 10 swords, in case the first 9 got dented up, just on a 3-to-4-day trip between towns/cities.

 

Obviously, you're sometimes going to run out of arrows. If you so choose, maybe you can carry several extra bundles in your pack, but the game doesn't need to be designed to make sure you NEVER run out of arrows, ever. No one said it should, I don't think.

[Inarius]

The problem with archery is pretty much tied to HP increases. At low levels 40-60 arrows will carry you through a dungeon simply because everyones hit points ar so low and all it takes is 1-2 arrows from you or your opponents to down a single target. At higher levels though a single target can easily survive 4 to 6  arrows and keep going. That means you need massive amounts of arrows just to make it through a single dungeon, or a way to replenish arrows as you go.

 

Resorting to melee when you run out of arrows has also always been a bad idea in most of the infinity engine games since being decent at melee in the mid to higher levels requires a fairly signifigant investment in your training options. Going melee when you ran out of arrows tended to be an actual liability due to needing more healing than the regular frontline fighters. I tended to just let my archer unit sit around doing nothing when they ran out of arrows in order to go easier on my healer(s).

[Lephys]

The problem with archery is pretty much tied to HP increases.

While that's true to an extent, and while I wouldn't expect the two to run in parallel the whole game with absolutely no fluctuation, the amount of damage you can inflict with the exact "same" arrow (same model or type, not necessarily the same individual arrow) should increase as the HP of foes increases. Not to mention, if you've got different arrow types, one would think that that would be the whole point of those; to more effectively damage those foes who are no longer being effectively damaged by standard arrows.

 

Couple that with partial arrow retrieval and you've got yourself one problem slain. 8D

[Gfted1]

I dont see why arrows should scale just because HP increases with levels. A 1d8 sword is still a 1d8 sword no matter youre fighting a street mook or dragon. Adding enchants/elemental/exploding is fine but a plain arrow that did 1d4 should always do 1d4.

[Tsuga C]

So long as the mechanics for ranged weapons generally run parallel to those for melee weapons, I don't foresee any serious problems. For example, if criticals and combat abilities (e.g. multi-shot) are there to keep the archers useful, then the rangers won't suffer and the complaints will be kept to a minimum. If the melee masters utterly rule the non-magical combat, however, the excrement storm will be loud and long.

[Lephys]

I dont see why arrows should scale just because HP increases with levels. A 1d8 sword is still a 1d8 sword no matter youre fighting a street mook or dragon. Adding enchants/elemental/exploding is fine but a plain arrow that did 1d4 should always do 1d4.

I don't either. But I do see why your effectiveness with them should.

 

Unless, of course, you think an archer should go through the entire game with naught but his standard attack. Especially in a world of superhuman soul powers, I would think your abilities would take the effectiveness of your arrows SOMEWHERE beyond the effectiveness at which you started. But maybe that's just crazy talk. *shrug*

[Nonek]

One form of crafting that i'm not against is the art of the Fletcher, from what we know of the Yeomanry of England almost every archer had a working knowledge of that craft, and could easily find feathers, clothyard shafts and make his own glue from scavenged natural elements. The only sticking point I can see is the arrowheads, pile, broadhead and what have you, for which the services of a smith will be needed if he chooses to use them.

 

Could be a nice camp activity for the Longbowman character, trimming and checking his fletching, picking out and straightening wooden shafts over the fire, stirring a little pot of glue etcetera, etcetera.

 

Edit: Have enemy archers also carrying such components, and they should be easily scavenged from the corpses. At higher levels of the skill you could inscribe runes of finding and wounding into the arrowheads or even use rare baneful metals and composite materials. 

Edited March 20, 2013 by Nonek

[Gfted1]

I don't either. But I do see why your effectiveness with them should.

I dont follow. First you said:

...the amount of damage you can inflict with the exact "same" arrow (same model or type, not necessarily the same individual arrow) should increase as the HP of foes increases.

But now you feel they shouldnt? Fair enough.

Unless, of course, you think an archer should go through the entire game with naught but his standard attack. Especially in a world of superhuman soul powers, I would think your abilities would take the effectiveness of your arrows SOMEWHERE beyond the effectiveness at which you started. But maybe that's just crazy talk. *shrug*

In the same post you quoted I already accounted for improving damage. Also abilities as exampled by TsugaC make sense. A plain arrow suddenly increasing in damage because you are fighting a tougher foe does not.

[Jarmo]

It'd make perfect sense to me for an archer to learn to use higher draw power when leveling up, probably requiring stronger bows at some intervals.

A bow with 20 lbs draw is not a childrens toy but a lethal weapon, yet the strongest longbows were maybe up to 200 lbs!

While that doesn't directly transfer to 10x more damage per arrow, it's not far off either.

 

So in D&D terms, a beginning archer could do 1d6 damage and a competent (strong) veteran with mastercraft bow could do 10d6.

And that's without magic.

 

Couldn't be the exact same arrow though, a light arrow would break when used on a strong draw bow.

But maybe that kind of stuff is better left unimplemented and simply assumed everybody uses the correct arrows?

Though if arrows had weight, it'd be fun to have light ones for light bows and heavy arrows for heavy bows...

 

Anyway, I quite like the Mount & Blade abstraction, where you have your quiver of arrows and while you can run out.

the quiver is auto-replenished between encounters.

[Lephys]

I dont follow. First you said:

...the amount of damage you can inflict with the exact "same" arrow (same model or type, not necessarily the same individual arrow) should increase as the HP of foes increases.

But now you feel they shouldnt? Fair enough.

Unless, of course, you think an archer should go through the entire game with naught but his standard attack. Especially in a world of superhuman soul powers, I would think your abilities would take the effectiveness of your arrows SOMEWHERE beyond the effectiveness at which you started. But maybe that's just crazy talk. *shrug*

In the same post you quoted I already accounted for improving damage. Also abilities as exampled by TsugaC make sense. A plain arrow suddenly increasing in damage because you are fighting a tougher foe does not.

 

 

Okay, I don't know how else to say this. I'm not inferring secret meanings with my words. I'm using words that mean things to say exactly what they mean. The amount of damage YOU (the character) are capable of inflicting, using the same tool you have been using (the arrows), should increase as you improve, regardless of whether or not the tool you're using improves. How does that suggest arrows that nonsensically scale their damage for no apparent reason?

 

And if you already accounted for improving damage, then how is my talk of improving damage confusing and/or questionable?

 

And is insulting my intelligence twice in a row (once by assuming I'm opting for nonsense, and once by condescendingly trying to point out that my clarification doesn't work because my point is nonsense, and that now I'm saying two different things) really a more constructive option than simply asking, "Wait, you're not talking about arrows scaling in damage, are you? Because that would be silly."?

[Jarmo]

 

There's really no need for an arrow recovery system. If they design encounters and dungeons with ammo supplies in certain areas, it can solve the issue right there.

 

I also prefer the fact that having a limited supply means I have to choose when and where to use ranged weapons. Otherwise the game just becomes six characters shooting bolts and arrows in every battle and removes/reduces tactical considerations.  I think this is one area that should use more abstraction than realism to prevent exploitation.  You certainly wouldn't be able to re-use firearm ammunition, so you'd have to apply tactics there.

 

Basically, you've got to buy 50 arrows or whatever, but, if you only fire 15 in a combat engagement, you might recover all of them. And if you fire 40, you might only recover 15, giving you 25 for the next engagement, instead of 50. Makes perfectly, tactically-deep sense to me. *shrug*

 

I'd like that, if it was done automagically enough, without a hassle.

And it could make some arrow recovery feats worthwhile, if you'd suddenly start recovering 50 and not 30 percent of those prescious magic arrows.

 

And I see no problem carrying around 5 quivers with total 300 arrows, if the next guy lugs around a spare plate armor.

But anyway, deep stash should alleviate some of the stress, if quiver refilling is at least semi-automatic.

Say combat load of 90 arrows, but auto-replenished from the deep stash store of 4000 arrows between combats.

[Gfted1]

 

I dont follow. First you said:

...the amount of damage you can inflict with the exact "same" arrow (same model or type, not necessarily the same individual arrow) should increase as the HP of foes increases.

But now you feel they shouldnt? Fair enough.

 

Unless, of course, you think an archer should go through the entire game with naught but his standard attack. Especially in a world of superhuman soul powers, I would think your abilities would take the effectiveness of your arrows SOMEWHERE beyond the effectiveness at which you started. But maybe that's just crazy talk. *shrug*

/p>

In the same post you quoted I already accounted for improving damage. Also abilities as exampled by TsugaC make sense. A plain arrow suddenly increasing in damage because you are fighting a tougher foe does not.

 

Okay, I don't know how else to say this. I'm not inferring secret meanings with my words. I'm using words that mean things to say exactly what they mean. The amount of damage YOU (the character) are capable of inflicting, using the same tool you have been using (the arrows), should increase as you improve, regardless of whether or not the tool you're using improves. How does that suggest arrows that nonsensically scale their damage for no apparent reason?

 

And if you already accounted for improving damage, then how is my talk of improving damage confusing and/or questionable?

 

And is insulting my intelligence twice in a row (once by assuming I'm opting for nonsense, and once by condescendingly trying to point out that my clarification doesn't work because my point is nonsense, and that now I'm saying two different things) really a more constructive option than simply asking, "Wait, you're not talking about arrows scaling in damage, are you? Because that would be silly."?

There there Lephys, bestill your rage and wipe the spittle flecks from your display. I honestly read that as you would like to have "the exact "same" arrow" cause more damage as HP of foes increases. You also conveniently added in that its now the PLAYER improving, not the tool. Perhaps if you articulate your thoughts better your arguments wont have to evolove and there will be less misunderstandings.

[Ywerion]

  I have always loved to the ones depicted in Thorgal: Archers (first Thorgal issue I have read), even though it's not gonna be implemented I will write them down as I remember them, there was no magic but the sheer variety is longing for some nice in-game effects.

Aside classical arrows for hunting or war there were arrows:

  laurel leaf shaped arrowheads - for disarming enemies 

  nonlethal rounded arrowheads - stun

  with hissing head - to scare away enemies  

  with crescent shaped head - for cutting off limbs (in the same issue Criss cut man's palm off with one of those)

  and the last ones were with jagged heads - extra damage, so DoT for example

  and with snake curved tip - which was said to cause incurable injuries, which can cause nasty penalty on critical until treated properly with Doctor skill

 

  Just my ideas, wanted to share them.

[Lephys]

There there Lephys, bestill your rage and wipe the spittle flecks from your display. I honestly read that as you would like to have "the exact "same" arrow" cause more damage as HP of foes increases. You also conveniently added in that its now the PLAYER improving, not the tool. Perhaps if you articulate your thoughts better your arguments wont have to evolove and there will be less misunderstandings.

Well, that would've been a perfectly understandable misunderstanding, had I made any mention at all of the HP increase of foes. There is no amount of clarity with which I can convey thoughts that prevents your brain from adding in clauses and notions, then assuming I meant them. I'm sorry about that.

 

It's obviously not the end of the world, and at the end of the day you can do as you please, but, in the interest of smooth foruming for all, I highly recommend inquiry over assumption. There is nothing wrong with misunderstanding someone. There's only something wrong with assuming you didn't, even after they claim otherwise. At the very least, it misleads other readers as to what ideas have been conveyed already in a discussion into which they may wish to dive, and it produces unnecessary amounts of explanatory "clutter" that could've been avoided by a simple question.

 

Also, I'll have you know that there is no force on this earth that can quell the rage welling inside me! And my display is nestled safely beneath a desk-surface panel of tempered glass, rendering the wiping away of my spittle torrent from my display a moot action.

[Gfted1]

Well, that would've been a perfectly understandable misunderstanding, had I made any mention at all of the HP increase of foes. There is no amount of clarity with which I can convey thoughts that prevents your brain from adding in clauses and notions, then assuming I meant them. I'm sorry about that.

While that's true to an extent, and while I wouldn't expect the two to run in parallel the whole game with absolutely no fluctuation, the amount of damage you can inflict with the exact "same" arrow (same model or type, not necessarily the same individual arrow) should increase as the HP of foes increases.

I see, youre just trolling me. You win, I fell for it.

[Lephys]

 

 

While that's true to an extent, and while I wouldn't expect the two to run in parallel the whole game with absolutely no fluctuation, the amount of damage you can inflict with the exact "same" arrow (same model or type, not necessarily the same individual arrow) should increase as the HP of foes increases.

I see, youre just trolling me. You win, I fell for it.

 

 

Ahhhh, my bad. *facepalm* I completely forgot I worded that like I did. That was pretty terrible wording. 8\

 

Yeah, all I meant was that, as things, such as the HP/toughness of foes, decreases the relative effectiveness of an arrow, so should your character's progression and abilities simultaneously increase the effectiveness of that arrow (as it's used by your character).

 

I owe you an apology, good sir. Being the one who conveyed the sentence, I didn't even realize that part was so easy to misconstrue until you pointed it out to me just now (even though you did, in fact, include that part in prior quotes). Then I forgot I even typed that "...as the HP of foes..." bit.

 

I've been on overnight shift this week, so I've been extremely tired, and that's STILL not even a good excuse, heh.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Lephys

[Gfted1]

No worries.

[Lephys]

No worries.

 

Oh, worries. I hereby sentence myself to wear a large, scarlet letter "A" (for "arse") upon my person at all times, u_u...

 

[Karranthain]

Anyway, I quite like the Mount & Blade abstraction, where you have your quiver of arrows and while you can run out.

the quiver is auto-replenished between encounters.

 

I liked that too, I think it's an acceptable compromise. You were forced to conserve ammunition during an encounter, but you weren't encumbered with the tedious micromanagement afterwards.