Archery and arrow heads

[Jobby]

Hey, I'm not sure if this has already been covered but i haven't seen anything on it so i assume not, I was thinking of the various armour types and damage effects and how this could be adapted to archery which led me to purpose crafted arrowheads, i.e. bodkins, broadheads etc.. after a bit of research i also found info regarding mechanical arrowheads that release blades on impact through a spring mechanism thing which also sounds quite cool.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cr%C3%A9cy-en-Ponthieu_24-09-2008_12-11-33.JPG

 

I think this would add to the gameplay mechanics of archery and is a natural expansion of the BG system of "flaming arrows", "acid arrows" etc... What are your thoughts?

[JFSOCC]

Could be an interesting addition.

I'm in love with this arrowhead:

I always thought it was the coolest. (Warcraft II was my first game on the first computer I could call my own. So I played it extensively)

[rjshae]

Providing ranged combat with some versatility against different armor types would necessitate carrying around two or more different sets of arrows and switching up as needed. But that also implies a need to track ammo; otherwise you may as well just have one type that is equally effective against all armors.

[Gfted1]

Providing ranged combat with some versatility against different armor types would necessitate carrying around two or more different sets of arrows and switching up as needed. But that also implies a need to track ammo; otherwise you may as well just have one type that is equally effective against all armors.

 

 

Were already going to be playing rock/paper/scissors with our weapon sets to get around the crushing/slicing/piercing so Im sure you could do the same with arrows. Just put one quiver of each kind into a weapon set.

[Lephys]

However this is handled, I think ammo should either have finite quantities (which are purchased) only if the different types are kept quite simple, and should be handled "automatically" (replenishment; maybe per-encounter/per-rest limitations, like other spells and abilities, but with swappable quivers or something) if the types are going to be complex and numerous.

 

I don't want to have to keep track of how many arrows of 17 different types I have on my person, and decide how many of each to put into my quiver. That gets a bit silly in the midst of the rest of such things pertaining to combat being decently abstracted.

[Tsuga C]

Let's just follow the KISS rule:

• One arrow type per quiver.
• Arrows are not reusable.
• Two standard, non-magical types: broadhead (piercing [primary] + slashing [secondary]) and bodkin (piercing).
• Non-magical arrows are limitless* per quiver and the full quiver weighs < 5lbs; magical arrows are limited and weigh the same per quiver.
• Arrows may be poisoned or have any magical property applied to them that is available to other piercing or slashing weapons.

 

*Some might question this, but a dedicated archer on extended campaign shouldn't run out of arrows. This wouldn't be a problem if arrows were recoverable and/or plenty of arrows were available from fallen foes, but the limitless quiver for normal arrows obviates the necessity of either of these options.

[TRX850]

There is an Archery thread already, with suggestions on how to not run out of ammo on page 2.  I don't really see a need to auto-refill your quiver with "free" arrows unless you've *earned* the requisite magical item. Resource management is all part of the strategy, after all.

[Lephys]

I think Tsuga's point was awesome regarding ammo management. In reality, an archer brings enough arrows to get the job done (relative to his skill), and knows how to retrieve them and such between battles. It is only through abstraction that this doesn't occur. So, it's folly to abstract away the ability to replenish arrows and such AND require ammo quantity management, on top of that.

 

Besides... in the context of all the soul-ability lore, I don't see why the typical "purchase arrows/bolts/bullets that have already been enchanted, individually" is really necessary, or that it even fits very well. I definitely think ammo management should be handled differently. And, of course, I'll shutup now, as this was addressed in that Archery thread to which TRX so kindly linked us. ^_^

[Jobby]

I don't really have a problem with retrieving say 50% of your arrows as chances are your going to loot the corpses anyway, as long as you don't then have to micromanage them into various quivers, i feel this should be done automatically. I would personally prefer a system like this than the magical quiver of unlimited arrows. 

 

I don't necessarily think we need separate quivers but definitely quickslot changeovers, as Gfted1 said we're going to have to quickslot change our melee chars weapons to suit the situation so it makes sense to have a similar system for archers.

[Lephys]

I don't really have a problem with retrieving say 50% of your arrows as chances are your going to loot the corpses anyway, as long as you don't then have to micromanage them into various quivers, i feel this should be done automatically. I would personally prefer a system like this than the magical quiver of unlimited arrows.

Yeah, I don't think 0 limitations on ammo quantity are the way to go. BUT, just to be clear, you can do per-encounter ammo limit, then have the replenishment be unlimited. Which is basically what it is with purchasable ammo quantities. Except, with that, you run into that whole "I can only keep 30 arrows in a quiver, really, but now the game's abstractly letting me fire 700 arrows in one bout of combat, when really I would've just used like 30 and retrieved most of the ones I fired when combat was done."

 

Basically, I don't think something that gets used so often needs to have limitations that are enforced by funds and merchant availability. There are probably better ways of limiting it.

[Tamerlane]

I know Sawyer's talked about different arrowheads - specifically, bodkin and broadhead - for different purposes, but the armour system has gone through multiple reworkings since then, so who knows what the state of arrows is anymore.

[khango]

The Mongols had a bazillion types of arrows, but considering how many kinds there were in IE games it never occurred to me to worry that there wouldn't be some different types.

[Hormalakh]

Just as long as the AP arrows work like they're supposed to. I'm looking at you, Fallout.

[Dream]

Super thermite and air burst arrows are a must.

[AGX-17]

There have long been different arrowhead designs to fit different roles. The Warcraft II elven archer upgrade JFSOCC cited, for example, is a real-world arrowhead design meant for warfare. The point of the hollow in the center is to get caught up in the innards of the victim so that pulling the arrow out will do near as much damage as the entry, thus increasing the lethality of the arrow.

 

Even the material of the shaft and bow are major factors in archery performance. Some woods are more flexible, some are more hard, having different effects like longer range vs. more force on impact. It's more or less standard knowledge that bow composition is a major factor, the mongols used short composite recurve bows (bamboo, horn and sinew,) in their successful conquest of much of the world, while the victory of the English archers at Agincourt is frequently attributed to their use of Yew longbows.

 

I don't know if there should be a balls-out complete arrow customization system (choose head design, head material, shaft material, fletching material, fletching alignment, etc.) but it would definitely add more possibilities for Rangers and archery in general without the need for magic buffs or enchantments. i.e. Arrows with more armor penetration, arrows that cause DOT through bleeding, etc.

Edited March 3, 2013 by AGX-17

[JFSOCC]

Such a customization system would make the crafting skill so much more valuable.

[DCParry]

One word -

 

Boomerang Arrow. 

 

Ok, that is two words. It would be too awesome for just one word. 

[Alexjh]

The fact that there wasn't really arrow recovery in IE games was one of the few things that was frustrating about them, but I definitly favour the ability to loot back your arrows over an infinite number in a tactical game like this - ammunition management along with positioning is basically one of the prime mechanics of a ranged class and removing it would be too strong.   I can think of two solutions that keep management doable without having to stock up half your inventory with arrows before any excursion

 

1) Have arrows be directly lootable from corpses based on a roll.  To pick a random example, if it was d20, a roll of 1-8 might mean the arrow is lost or damaged, while 9-20 would mean the arrow is recovered.  Feats might be available to raise that higher.

 

2) Have arrows automatically be relooted on a per-encounter basis, so, you take out one fight and through a bit of number rolling to keep it organic, when every opponent is dead you automatically regain all arrows that you shot and successfully rolled to not be damaged.  You could combine this with the arrows still being lootable in mid fight so that if you do run out you can try loot a foe to get a bit more ammo.

[TRX850]

There's really no need for an arrow recovery system. If they design encounters and dungeons with ammo supplies in certain areas, it can solve the issue right there.

 

I also prefer the fact that having a limited supply means I have to choose when and where to use ranged weapons. Otherwise the game just becomes six characters shooting bolts and arrows in every battle and removes/reduces tactical considerations.  I think this is one area that should use more abstraction than realism to prevent exploitation.  You certainly wouldn't be able to re-use firearm ammunition, so you'd have to apply tactics there.

[Karranthain]

I agree that ammo should be limited, particularly for the firearms. Should I shoot or conserve the ammo for later? I hope we'll be forced to make such considerations.

[Alexjh]

There's really no need for an arrow recovery system. If they design encounters and dungeons with ammo supplies in certain areas, it can solve the issue right there.

 

I also prefer the fact that having a limited supply means I have to choose when and where to use ranged weapons. Otherwise the game just becomes six characters shooting bolts and arrows in every battle and removes/reduces tactical considerations.  I think this is one area that should use more abstraction than realism to prevent exploitation.  You certainly wouldn't be able to re-use firearm ammunition, so you'd have to apply tactics there.

 

Fire-arm ammunition I agree with as that makes sense from a balance issue anyway: it's easier to carry 100 lead shots than 100 arrows, but the arrows can generally be reused. That's part of the tradeoff between bows and guns.  I do think that if a character wants to be using ranged weapons 95% of the time that should be entirely viable, as it was in IE games, and the idea of an entire party of ranged fighters somehow being overpowered misses the point of what makes a strong party - things should be balanced in such a way that a strong party has flexibility to it.  Sure you might have a party of 6 understoppable frontline juggernauts which might do exceptionally well in very basic encounters, but the second a mage throws down a tangle spell and lets archers pick your guys off at range you are in trouble, or if some psyhic nasty takes control of half your party.  Similarly with ranged characters, the challenge shouldn't come from putting artificial restrictions on them, but by having encounters where enemies use darkness spells, walls of wind, high speed melee characters that can get right up into the face of your archers before they can take them down and so on.   

[TRX850]

In the IE games, ammo was plentiful, so you rarely ran out. And I agree that archers should do what they do best. But they're not limited to archery. And probably all characters in the party will have some form of ranged weapon. It makes tactical sense. But there should be times when it's obvious that ranged attacks are overkill, and by deciding to use ammo unnecessarily, you risk running low. It provides tactical choice to the player.

 

I mentioned in the other Archery thread that the engine could discreetly adjudicate how much ammo is used by regular archers, and dynamically adjust the loot drops accordingly, so as to give the illusion of a well-needed restocking.  I just think that there should always be the option to "run out" of ammo, just as it is for spells and special abilities.  Ranged attacks should be considered a bit of a perk, but an *earned* reward for the conscientious archer, i.e. knowing when to splurge and when to conserve.

[Lephys]

There's really no need for an arrow recovery system. If they design encounters and dungeons with ammo supplies in certain areas, it can solve the issue right there.

 

I also prefer the fact that having a limited supply means I have to choose when and where to use ranged weapons. Otherwise the game just becomes six characters shooting bolts and arrows in every battle and removes/reduces tactical considerations.  I think this is one area that should use more abstraction than realism to prevent exploitation.  You certainly wouldn't be able to re-use firearm ammunition, so you'd have to apply tactics there.

You do have a limited supply, with the per-encounter recovery method suggested. You don't just magically spawn arrows. You only get arrows back from the ones you already bought and had and fired. This could easily be adjustable on a scale, for progression's sake. Maybe a starting Ranger/archer only recovers 30% of his arrows after a combat encounter, and as you go, base level-up bonuses and/or talents taken (and maybe the effects/modifiers of perception-affecting stats?) increase this amount.

 

Basically, you've got to buy 50 arrows or whatever, but, if you only fire 15 in a combat engagement, you might recover all of them. And if you fire 40, you might only recover 15, giving you 25 for the next engagement, instead of 50. Makes perfectly, tactically-deep sense to me. *shrug*

 

Now, as was mentioned, bullets? Probably should just be non-recoverable. But, they'd be cheaper and more easily managed. But, it's ridiculous to have to buy 250 arrows just to go investigate a cave.

 

ALSO, you could have certain enemies/enemy-types against which arrows (or certain types of arrows) were more likely to be unrecoverable (or were just-plain unrecoverable). This would basically reduce the Recovered Arrow "roll" or value (however you handle the details of that) by a counter generated by hits on that enemy/type. Just food for thought. Not a complete idea meal. 8P

[Alexjh]

I think the main issue I had with the IE games was "inventory clog" that ranged fighters had to put up with, hence the suggestion of a recovery mechanic.  It's a bit daft to have to purchase and carry around 400 arrows on one person in batches of 40, clogging up their inventory from being able to carry anything else much.  Part of that could be solved by having arrow stacking be at a higher number, like 100, but that doesn't resolve the issue of having to have ridiculous amounts of arrows.

[rjshae]

I think the main issue I had with the IE games was "inventory clog" that ranged fighters had to put up with, hence the suggestion of a recovery mechanic.  It's a bit daft to have to purchase and carry around 400 arrows on one person in batches of 40, clogging up their inventory from being able to carry anything else much.  Part of that could be solved by having arrow stacking be at a higher number, like 100, but that doesn't resolve the issue of having to have ridiculous amounts of arrows.

 

A suggestion I made earlier was to be able to buy an arrow "inventory" item representing a "stack of identical arrows" that effectively gets replenished from your infinite stash. The item has a "cool down" that simulates running out of your current stock. The item is similar to purchasing a lifetime supply of arrows; the merchant is gambling that the adventurer will die before they have used up more value in arrows than the supply is worth. For example, you may spend 500 g.p. to license an infinite supply of ordinary arrows.

 

Yeah it's not a perfect solution, but it may be much easier to manage the arrow supply this way.