Crimes and misdemeanors

[rjshae]

The middle ages weren't noted for their leniency toward criminals. Yet in games like Oblivion, a crime is punished merely by penalties and time in gaol. Obviously a beheading would bring the game to a speedy conclusion. So what penalties should the player suffer if he is captured and found guilty? Would it make sense to implement permanent physical and mental disabilities from the player's incarceration and ill-treatment (torture)? How about permanent penalties from loss of limbs or senses?

Edited January 26, 2013 by rjshae

[TRX850]

It'd make sense to have something like this as part of the plot, maybe? Otherwise players will rage and reload.

 

Got me thinking though. Thumb screws all round.

 

Edit:

 

Spellcasters could be forced to wear a "Brank" for a set duration, magically locked to prevent tampering. Can't see that happening though.

 

 

Or maybe they are "hobbled". Ankles broken then set incorrectly, like in the film Misery with James Caan and Kathy Bates.

Edited January 26, 2013 by TRX850

[Lephys]

Yeah, it seems best to incorporate stuff like that in one of two controlled ways:

 

1) If it's a crime you can commit completely at your leisure throughout the game (pickpocketing, assault, breaking and entering, etc.), then it should be punished with some non-time-consuming penalty. No jail-time, community service, nothing. And this is IF you allow such crimes wherever and whenever.

2) If it's a crime you can only commit in certain situations (as tied to specific quests/scenarios), then a time-consuming outcome could easily be used (basically as a branch/path/outcome for that quest or scenario).

 

When you put stuff in like in TES games, where you can just go spend time in jail every time you get caught stealing, or accidentally nick someone ('s head off) with a weapon, I dare you to find a player who has ANY desire whatsoever to experience that more than once. And nothing else in the game punishes you by making you spend time doing nothing like that. If you make mistakes in combat, you immediately pay in HP/consciousness, etc. If you make a "mistake" on a quest, you get attacked or lose out on a monetary reward or more quest opportunities, but you get to IMMEDIATELY keep playing the game in some form of constructive fashion.

 

I don't like it when criminal punishments basically give you a time-out from gameplay. Especially when they're disguised as "still constructive" segments because you get to break out of jail, or talk your way out (same exact scenario every time.) That's like time out PLUS a chore. "You go stand in that corner for 30 minutes, OR until you manage to stack all 50 of these cups without them falling down." It's only "constructive" towards getting you back to the actual gameplay. Which is why I think it would best be implemented only as part of the actual gameplay, in specific scenarios, however numerous they may be (as the devs see fit.)

[Malevolent]

I'm all down for harder punishments for context-sensitive criminal acts.  Exclusive opportunities that are tied to the main storyline, or major side-quests?  Sure.  That could be extremely interesting, particularly if the quest in question had various ways for you to approach the situation.  Perhaps it would be particularly more difficult and time consuming to do things the non-illegal way, or something bad could happen if the quest is not commit with haste.  In a world like Project Eternity, where greyer definitions of morality are encouraged, this could be a useful story element.  Don't make it impossible for goody-goody players to go through unscathed, but make it difficult, make it long and time consuming, make it a hassle, maybe force them to sacrifice something of worth.  This would balance out for players who take the criminal route, and could potentially be punished for their crimes.  Perhaps there are a variety of criminal acts you can commit during said quest.  Say, you could do a 'greyer' act of simply breaking and entering to gather information or steal a crucial ingredient/object.  The punishment for that wouldn't be as severe as simply murdering the individual in question who might plan on something similar in the future when you're not around.  Obviously, the developers would have to walk a narrow line as to offer multiple solutions without railroading, but still emphasize that there is no clearly "right" solution.

 

Now, for simply pick pocketing, or lock picking throughout the game?  You could perhaps do something where you have to pay some fine, the fine increasing for number of times you are caught, else face the wrath of the town guard. 

[maggotheart]

Unless it's going to be a part of the storyline I think committing crimes should just affect your faction reputation.

 

Crimes:

 

1. Mayhem is a catchall term to describe destruction of faction owned property and disruption of their normal operations (like say having a big fight in the town square)

2. Stealing from a residence or container belonging to a faction

3. Assault covers everything from a mugging to a beating

4. Murder is regarded as the most terrible crime and carries the heaviest reputation penalty

5. Treason can be defined as any of the other crimes that are committed directly against the faction itself (stealingthe kings crown, assaulting the police, murdering an official) and carries an enhanced penalty for the criminal action

 

Consequences of low faction reputation:

 

(low) faction shops increase prices

(lower) faction shops will not sell to the party

(lowest) faction shops will bar their doors and attack the party if they draw near

 

(low) mercenaries will charge more for their services

(lower) mercenaries will not serve the party

(lowest) mercenaries will attack the party on sight

 

(low) sidequest givers will reduce their rewards

(lower) sidequest givers will shun the party

(lowest) sidequest givers will flee the party

 

(low) town guards will hassle the party by following them and demanding bribes

(lower) town guards will also bar access to some areas

(lowest) town guards will attack on sight

 

(low) patrols will intercept the party and demand bribes

(lower) patrols will intercept the party and demand they leave the area

(lowest) patrols will intercept the party and destroy them

 

And the other side of the coin would be helping a faction and improving your reputation with them, we could call it favors:

 

Favors:

 

1. Civility is a catchall term to describe restoring faction owned property and improving their normal operations (like say preventing a big fight in the town square)

2. Donating cash or other material possessions to a faction member

3. Defending the faction covers everything from verbal altercations to physical ones

4. Rescuing or saving the life of a faction member is regarded as the greatest favour and carries the highest reputation gain

5. Loyalty can be defined as any of the other favors that are committed directly for the faction itself (returning the family jewels, defending the police, rescuing an official) and carries an enhanced bonus for the favorable action.

 

Consequences of high faction reputation:

 

(high) faction shops lower prices

(higher) faction shops provide a wider variety of items

(highest) faction shops provide premium items

 

(high) mercenaries will charge less for their services

(higher) mercenaries will work on credit

(highest) mercenaries will join the party just for the glory

 

(high) sidequest givers will increase their rewards

(higher) sidequest givers will seek the party out

(highest) sidequest givers that are unique will appear

 

(high) town guards will give the party no problems whatsoever

(higher) town guards will also allow access to some restricted areas

(highest) town guards will defend the party from attackers

 

(high) patrols will ignore the party

(higher) patrols will be friendly to the party

(highest) patrols will intercept the party and support them in battle

[AGX-17]

It'd make sense to have something like this as part of the plot, maybe? Otherwise players will rage and reload.

 

Got me thinking though. Thumb screws all round.

 

Edit:

 

Spellcasters could be forced to wear a "Brank" for a set duration, magically locked to prevent tampering. Can't see that happening though.

 

 

Or maybe they are "hobbled". Ankles broken then set incorrectly, like in the film Misery with James Caan and Kathy Bates.

 

As clear as it is that you'd love it if it were, P:E isn't going to be a medieval torture/maiming/mutilation simulator.

 

Ciphers and Wizards aren't Chanters in P:E. When did they ever say that anyone but the Chanter class would use speech as the sole or primary basis for their magic or skills?

 

Furthermore, being permanently crippled is ludicrous. That's just as game-ending as losing your head. How would a protagonist who would be better off with amputated legs be able to perform world-changing feats of combat? They've already stated that the game is being designed to be completable with the PC only, regardless of class. Which would mean in your vision of P:E, a Fighter who's incapable of walking could complete the entire game dragging himself through the mud with his hands and combating enemies all the while. Which is ridiculous.

[TRX850]

Still working for that tabloid newspaper then?

[Dream]

At 5 stars the city guard should send armored knights and DaVinci flying machines after you.

[Ywerion]

  As great as this idea sounds, I can't see how this could be possibly implemented, even if the punishment was for example temporarily crippled limb for fighters or muteness for casters, probably only the most hardcore players, would try to that once, reload is is just so easy. I remember in Gothic, that when you got caught, you got humilitated by getting your hide beaten and while you was lying KOed, opponent freely robbed you for all they wanted and let you get up, walk away and lick your wounds. That was one way to punish player for crime that I really liked.

[Nonek]

I'd be amenable to realistic medieval punishments being levied upon my characters should they be caught, such as losing a hand for thievery or whatever, so long as they were not rendered thus unplayable (though i'd definitely want that mutilation reflected.) If in a dangerous situation, where I know death is but seconds away and my every word counts, (say in conversation with a bloodthirsty tyrant) then I positively want the game to punish me with death and game over if I decide to choose an idiotic option, or try to say something "witty."

 

Choice and consequence, too often we're sherparded into towing the line, let us bear the brunt of our actions and know that the dangerous characters and situations do have some actual in game teeth.

[rjshae]

Okay. Rather than a straight-out disability then, how about a trade-off? You gain a Trait, comparable to those for starting characters in FNV.

 

For example, the hours in the torture chamber have left your body damaged in ways that will never heal, permanently costing you a point of Strength. However, you have learned to withstand brutal interrogation, leaving you hardened and raising your Willpower. Your exposure to the criminal elements also grants you small bonuses to several thievery-related skills and a special combat feat. Finally, as per maggotheart's suggestion, your reputation is modified.

 

There could be multiple traits you can gain from the punishment, with the net result leaving your character modified but not in an unbalanced way.

[JFSOCC]

the punishments meted out are an indication of competence of society to deal with these issues. In a poor medieval society, it may not be cost-effective to have prisons, except for wealthy criminals. (like it used to be) and corporal punishment would be one of the few options available. The more advanced society is, the better it can deal with crime, to the point that today we're able to invest (even though we still don't everywhere) in treating criminals mental problems, drug problems, invest in their education, teach them a craft, and in general try to make them productive members of society again. Because expensive as it is, it yields results.

 

Perhaps a quest(line) where there is a prison-warden who you can help with his efforts to chance the system into something more equitable?

with various possible endings based on how you help?

[rjshae]

Given the presence of magic, it could be that the meting out of punishment may take an entirely different course than they do in our society. Rather than corporal punishment, perhaps criminals are banished to another realm that is entirely more brutal. Some types of crime may merit magical punishments that can produce wholesale changes to the psyche. For example, the criminal may be psychically bonded with a spirit that can haunt their dreams and suffer a torment of fear and anxiety. Rather than the stocks, maybe the thief is transformed into a monkey and locked in a cage for days at a time, being fed only scraps fit for a beast.

[Ywerion]

  Sir you have some crazy great ideas! As much as I like this to be implemented somehow or at least hinted at, I don't think it will make it (we can't safely say how much complex P:E will be)unless P:E will be more text-heavy on these subjects, it would certainly be cool to read what crazy punishment could mr. Avellone come up with (btw that monkey thing is fabulous). On a side note if the criminals could get punished like this in fantasy settings with this kind of magic, then crime might as well be wiped out, when enough culprits would return with severe incontinence for life or as babbling lambs...

                                                                                                                        and once in time as a Joker

Edited January 30, 2013 by Ywerion