The passing of time and 24/7 shops

[ambrusynev]

I've recently started replaying BG1 again and I once again fell in love with the passing

of time sysytem which I missed in DAO so much. This mechanic makes the game much

more fun/roleplayish for me, because I feel that I play in a real world.

So these mechanics would be really nice to have in PE, to be honest I would really miss them.

But I find it really funny, whenever I arrive into a town, every shop is open

and ready to serve me, as if they only exist because of me and my party.

I would like to arrive into villages which have their own daily routines / opening hours for shops / customs

so for example I should have to wait till the morning to be able to sell the content of my backpacks.

What do you think?

[JOG]

Day/Night cycles are fine, but they should serve a purpose (like being able to rob that shop, or witnessing/preventing a burglary)

 

Also the availability of services should depend on the NPC, most merchants might get up when you knock at their door at midnight and tell them that you're willing to pay double price if they serve you now. The healer may be there for you at no extra cost, the dwarf may be in the tavern or passed out for the rest of the night after the 25th tankard of ale, and the elf may not sleep at all but spend his idle time in half-conscious reverie always ready to welcome another customer, there may be even shops for a darker clientele that are only open at night.

 

As for the backpack, I think it would solve a lot of the common economy problems if you could not sell random junk to merchants; a weaponsmith may buy a masterfully crafted sword, but certainly not a old rusty blade let alone that smelly robe you got from that necromancer, no matter how powerful its enchantment.

Edited December 19, 2012 by JOG

[Nonek]

Yep, always serves to make the gameworld a more believable enviroment (and JOG's additions would only add to that,) i'd also add the limitation that certain merchant only buy and sell certain goods. The dwarven armourer deals in weapons, mail and plate, the elven hunter in leathers, bows and traps and the human provisioner in miscellaneous goods (coil of rope, iron rations, clothing, pole 10' etcetera.)

[Karkarov]

Uh this is fine but don't go over the top. We don't need rules for "this merchant is really greedy so if you pay double he will get up in the middle of the night". Is it more believable, maybe, but sometimes you are going a little too far down the rabbit hole.

 

Do the day night cycle as it has been done in many games thus far such as Skyrim. Some shops close, npcs move to different locations, some people could out to the streets at night who are otherwise not there, some events happen only at night, yes some shops may only be around at night. Or the most common implementation, different monsters and enemies are around at night.

 

Just don't go too crazy with it.

[Malcador]

Well, don't really need to lock them to race, kind of boring that elves are the guys for archers and dwarves for heavy infantry. The day/night cycle with NPCs having a daily routine (or maybe more than one for variety) is a nice touch of detail.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Malcador

[Nonek]

Oh not asking for race restrictions, just using the common cliches.

 

Thinking about it Karkarov's idea of a merchant specialising in high end goods, and charging ungodly prices, is also something i'd like to see implemented. You could even make a quest out of getting an invite to his establishment, or make it dependant on faction reputation. The finest attire for the infiltration of Lord Limpfondles soiree, or parade armour suited to the new Baron of Bosman keep.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Nonek

[Osvir]

Great topic! Want to highlight this post (for future relevance), this topic seems to pop up every now and then again and finding the old topics gets rough (this is a "hub" post basically).

 

Note/Hint: Drag mouse pointer over the text you wish to "inspect" to see it better (imo makes it easier to read the descriptions, otherwise you can just simply click the links and figure out yourself what the discussion is about).

 

On night:

• Darkness Falls POLL Darkness Falls, a discussion about "horror" in P:E. Which is closely related to the "Night" cycle (hence related to this thread). How does horror affect the setting? Is the slums not just worn down, but is it scary somehow aesthetically? Is there a lingering darkness that interrupts you, or is it situation-based for specific areas?
  
• Fog of War POLL Discussion and poll about "Fog of War"
  
• Torches! (linked to a cookie "Hub" post) With "Darkness" (Night) and "Fog of War" comes the question, is there any way to extend ones vision through the darkness? Some way to look further and beyond what is possible originally? Does it scale with level? Does it scale with a skill? [Vision] or simply a progressive mechanical statistic? Related to "Night".
  
• Scout Modes Are there different ways to utilize a "Torch" mechanic? (Literally: How do we manage "Vision"?)Can the Ranger tame a wolf and use it to scout through the Night? Could I send forward a magical orb called "Wizard's Eye" that can scout an area ahead with little danger to the party (it could have a lesser "Field Of View" so enemies would see it before we see the enemy by using it). Related to "Night".
  
• Make Day & Night matter! Day & Night is important, and falls into the category of "Passing of Time" (PoT) and obviously 24/7. PB (OP) talks about traveling taking time, areas outside of town, day length and seasons, and finally resting up to a specific time of day.
  
• Day/Night Quests/Loot/Monsters being different depending on time of day (Which, in my opinion, would grant a mass amount of replayability).
  

 

On time/Urgency:

• [suggestion] Time OP wonders if there is a "Time Limit" button with an "On/Off" function similar to Fallout. Some couple of examples in the post.
  
• Dynamic Weather & Seasons Does the weather change with the passing of time? Is the weather specific to a certain area and does it extend as far as into Seasons? Can we experience Winter on one gameplay and Summer on another? My own input: Could Seasons be random and non-important for story, meaning that I could start the game in the midst of Winter, or at the midst of Summer? (For replayability)
  
• Long term resources Great well-thought out ideas.
  
• Passage of Time Another topic on the passage of time, including several ideas such as "Inventory", "Traveling" and "Questing"
  
• Powers & A Sense of Urgency On failing quests and having a sort of "time limit". Exploring a dungeon takes time, and adds believeability that you can't rest 5 days in a row during your stay in dungeon as that would effect how the dungeon reacts. If it is day outside, perhaps the most uppermost levels of the cave has light shimmering through the cracks of the earth. Monsters attacking more frequently and/or failing to save the damsel in distress (She gets taken to the next Castle... err Super Mario reference).
  
• Thoughts on Urgency & Parallel Non-Linear Objectives Ideas, Thoughts, Discussion on Urgency and how Skyrim fell flat because not having it (OP's opinion).
  
• Flow of Time On Day/Night & NPC schedules (Shops). "x months later" discussion. My own thought: Could I hire a craftsman to make me a Sword and it actually takes a week or two (in-game) for it to finish?
  
• Time Importance of Time & IE "game time" reference.
  
• Time & Weather POLL Some Time of Day (ToD), Passage of Time (PoT) and Lightning Bolts (LB's).
  
• Time, Calendar, Season, Festival, Clock Title says it all. Some of my own input and thoughts, does P:E have winter? Or is it something entirely different and magical, not called "Winter" and "Snow" doesn't exist but instead some sort of magical "rain" that changes the environment somehow? Can the Seasons themselves be innovative by design?
  
• Urgency: Please have it Chiming in with the OP, Quote: "I LOVE what I am seeing in the updates." followed by a quote from an Update (doesn't say which one though) *shakes fist* response to Update #3
  

Edited December 19, 2012 by Osvir

[Karkarov]

Oh not asking for race restrictions, just using the common cliches.

 

Thinking about it Karkarov's idea of a merchant specialising in high end goods, and charging ungodly prices, is also something i'd like to see implemented. You could even make a quest out of getting an invite to his establishment, or make it dependant on faction reputation. The finest attire for the infiltration of Lord Limpfondles soiree, or parade armour suited to the new Baron of Bosman keep.

Actually I didn't really suggest that but it is a good point. There definitely should be some vendors with premium stock that do requite hoops to be jumped through.

[maggotheart]

I'm not a fan of having NPC merchants become unavailable or only buy and sell certain stock. In Skyrim, when I needed to go to a shop and it was nighttime, I would just push the wait button and sit there until they opened again in the morning. Not very immersive at all - to me, it was just inconvenient and annoying. And having merchants only buy and sell certain things has always been frustrating to me in games, leading to me spending my time running around searching for the merchant who will buy my widgets instead of being off adventuring and having fun. In my view realism should take a back seat to a good game experience. (If anyone has played the Witcher with its 'radiant AI', this is a great example of how annoying those mechanics can be)

[Orogun01]

On my experience Day/Night cycles in RPGs work best when two things happen:

 

1-Because I'm aware of the NPCs routine, either to having it observed or because of logical conclusions. If I don't tracking down a specific NPC becomes a chore and depending on the scale of the levels, an immersion breaking moment.

 

2-There is content that isn't affected by the cycle or that every time cycle has something for me to do, ergo no waiting times.

[Karkarov]

I'm not a fan of having NPC merchants become unavailable or only buy and sell certain stock. In Skyrim, when I needed to go to a shop and it was nighttime, I would just push the wait button and sit there until they opened again in the morning. Not very immersive at all - to me, it was just inconvenient and annoying. And having merchants only buy and sell certain things has always been frustrating to me in games, leading to me spending my time running around searching for the merchant who will buy my widgets instead of being off adventuring and having fun. In my view realism should take a back seat to a good game experience. (If anyone has played the Witcher with its 'radiant AI', this is a great example of how annoying those mechanics can be)

I only agree in so far as that there should be an npc merchant (say a pawn shop) who will always buy anything. That way if you are just looking to offload your junk fast you can find someone to do it. But those who take the effort to sell to the appropriate vendor should get slightly better prices. I do agree 100% on one thing, Elder Scrolls games always limit the money a merchant has on them, which is dumb. If you don't want me to have money just give me a lower sell price on the goods, don't stop me from selling it in the first place cause the so called merchant is broke.

[GhostofAnakin]

Day/Night cycles are fine, but they should serve a purpose.

 

This.

 

Day/night shouldn't simply be a "cosmetic" thing. There should actually be a noticeable difference in the world, such as shops open or closed, or more bandits wandering the streets at night, or certain NPCs or tasks only being available at certain hours.

[JFSOCC]

Day/Night cycles are fine, but they should serve a purpose (like being able to rob that shop, or witnessing/preventing a burglary)

 

Also the availability of services should depend on the NPC, most merchants might get up when you knock at their door at midnight and tell them that you're willing to pay double price if they serve you now. The healer may be there for you at no extra cost, the dwarf may be in the tavern or passed out for the rest of the night after the 25th tankard of ale, and the elf may not sleep at all but spend his idle time in half-conscious reverie always ready to welcome another customer, there may be even shops for a darker clientele that are only open at night.

 

As for the backpack, I think it would solve a lot of the common economy problems if you could not sell random junk to merchants; a weaponsmith may buy a masterfully crafted sword, but certainly not a old rusty blade let alone that smelly robe you got from that necromancer, no matter how powerful its enchantment.

day and night was done exceptionally well in Quest for glory 5 IMO. where the thieves guild was accessible during the night only, some houses could only be burglarized at night (and the bank) and you couldn't shop except during the day. on science island you'd have a different scientist (well...) based on the time of day.

[rjshae]

For cross-country travel, it would be nice to have the option for what time you want to arrive. I.e. stretch out the travel time as needed. That way, if you want to shop, you can choose to arrive at a town when the stores are open.

[JOG]

day and night was done exceptionally well in Quest for glory 5 IMO. where the thieves guild was accessible during the night only, some houses could only be burglarized at night (and the bank) and you couldn't shop except during the day.

 

Or Arcanum, especially Tarrant, this is always the first thing I think of when I hear city adventure, you had day-shops, night-shops, 24/7 merchants, gangs terrorizing the streets at night, slums that were terrorized 24/7, a brothel with quite a variety of "girls", murder mistery and even a worker's uprising. Despite most non-filler NPCs being glued on their place for the given time of day, this town felt more alive and real than most I ever saw, without adding gameplay-annoyances for the sake of realism.

 

 

@all:

 

Of course it shouldn't become a "Hunt for NPC" minigame like Oblivion or on a less annoying scale Ultima 6. For "getting the merchant out of bed" I imagine a simple locked door, that gives you the choice to leave, pick the lock, knock, knock more demanding or bump at the door until the whole city quarter wakes up. The more effort you put in waking the merchant the more his prices will (temporary?) increase. (And yes, some humoric adventure elements do have a place in RPGs, IMO) The racial examples I gave above were just that, examples. Whether a shop is open 24/7 or just 8/5 should depend on the NPC's personality or the nature of the clientele, but when the NPC is asked for the reasons, racial stereotypes may be one possible answer.

 

And again: When the main reason for 24/7 merchants is getting rid of all that loot, the main reason for going back to town is that you can't carry anymore, and the main reason for wanting to sell the stuff right now is that the player wants to return to the dungeon and continue with the character's storyline, then something is wrong here.

 

When the merchants no longer buy random stuff, (why should a smith buy a sword? he makes a living of making and selling them! Why should an apothecary buy a sword? Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy iron ingots when he needs some iron for his potions?) and we reduce item selling to gems, legendary artifacts and custom orders, then we would not only eliminate the need to have a merchant available at all times, but also help to fix the economy-problem where a high level party has enough money to actually buy the kingdom that hired them as mercenaries.

 

Of course there could be pawn shops and fences, but even they wouldn't buy that crate of orc clubs you collected on your last adventure.

Edited December 20, 2012 by JOG

[Oerwinde]

day and night was done exceptionally well in Quest for glory 5 IMO. where the thieves guild was accessible during the night only, some houses could only be burglarized at night (and the bank) and you couldn't shop except during the day. on science island you'd have a different scientist (well...) based on the time of day.

 

If you robbed the bank didn't you go there in the day and it was closed and surrounded by guards, and didn't open for a day or so while the investigation was ongoing?

 

That would be the kind of thing I'd like to see in PE.

[Adhin]

100% in favor of time stuff and having the different times serving a purpose. Shops closing, maybe a shady magic weapons merchant in some back ally becomes available at night, amongst other quest related things. One thing that bugs me, however with most games is the day/night cycles to quick. 2 minutes per house is an absurdity and tends to draw me out more then bring me in. Generally speaking I prefer a more 1:3 ratio, that being 1 hour = 3 hours in game. You'd want a wait option and preferably the ability to pick a general time frame to wake up when you hit up and inn or your camp or whatever. Nothing we haven't seen before and most of that stuff works pretty solid regardless of the speed of the cycles.

 

Pretty sure they'll have all that but... can't remember if IWD2 had a day/night cycle. Probably did... meh.

[JFSOCC]

I agree, time shouldn't pass so fast that you can't take the time to look around before a day has passed.