Illusion Magic & Mog Dance

[Osvir]

Mog is one of my favorite characters ever, and his dance abilities are really powerful.

 

Not really advocating for a "dance" but the thing about it that made it special (in my opinion) was how it changed the "environment". Could illusion spells be visually stunning?

 

When the Wizard casts the illusion the calm wooden area transforms into a fiery scenery or burning hell, panicing the enemies. Or Horror makes it look like ghosts are floating spectrally in and out around them.

 

How mean can the illusions be, and could they also be so great that they could extend someone's life, enhancing the willpower of others. Or to escape.

 

It'd be fun with an illusion where you create pitfalls, and if an enemy walks into it they stumble and get stunned laying on the ground for 1 turn~. An illusion that makes them encumbered, making them believe they are wearing more than they can, as if the metal armors suddenly began to wear a couple of tons each.

 

TL;DR: Environmental and Visual/Graphical Illusion Spells.

 

Thoughts?

[Labadal]

Sure, why not? Let's say you have an instant death spell of some sort, it could be part of the illusion school. The spell makes the enemy see something so horrifying that his heart stops. This could be represented on-screen with something that looks totally messed up, wich even the player might find disturbing. The spell might need to pass a check or fail. Let's say a will check, if the enemy fails it, he will die. The spell wouldn't work against constructs and undead. Sounds a lot like D&D, and it basically is, but just add cool enviromental effects to the spell.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Labadal

[Osvir]

Precisely Labadal.

 

Really isn't much depth in this topic, mostly just aesthetics.

 

I would like spells to visually do what they say they do, but the Fireball spell will be a Fireball spell. Often I feel the "illusion" or "distract" spells often falls short in what they do.

 

I think that in BG/IE games, the effects of the "Horror" spell are what looks like bird stars or something floating around in yellow, blue and red(?) around the characters head. Not very intimidating nor representing the ability.

 

Likewise, it could be simpler, instead of having to make an entire "illusion" spell perhaps some sort of ominous looking cloud that sparkles with lightning, engulfing the opponents head. A saving check would make the cloud disperse and dissolve, whilst a failed check could keep the cloud around.

 

Would Blindness fall in the same category as "Illusion" spell? Is there going to be anything like "Blind Fighting" and could one of your party members actually benefit by having a "Blind" spell thrown at them by a party member or enemy?

 

Will there be times where you get to decide whether you want a saving throw or not?

[Nonek]

I've no idea whom Mog is, but I was under the impression that illusions and such would fall under the ambit of the Cipher, tricks that beglamour the mind and eye would seem to fit perfectly into their repertoire. I have always liked Illusionists however, if well played and well prepared they are nearly unbeatable, especially in the older versions of AD&D. If the game suddenly drags one into the playground of an illusionist, and the party is left wondering what is reality and what imagining, well I think Mr Avellone could create some brilliant content there. Give the artists a chance to get creative as well, something on the order of MC Escher or Gaudi.

 

Or even to be trapped in ones own mind, facing the monsters from the id.

[Osvir]

Mog is an epic creature in the Final Fantasy games, don't know which game was the first the animal/creature made an appearance in but it is (or was) Squaresoft's mascot character.

 

In Final Fantasy VI Mog appeared as a party member that you could recruit and do battle with, and he/she had a "Dance" ability making the background different depending on which "channeled" dance Mog used.

 

Great great ideas Nonek! Perhaps be able to make an illusion that makes the enemy grow in size, mutating and finally exploding in confetti and balloons. After the explosion is gone the opponent (or target) lies flat on the ground~

 

Is there ways to make ridiculous illusions? Namely "Wild" Illusions.

[TMTVL]

'Wild' Illusions? Cast invisibility and become engulfed in eels? Sounds fun.

 

Maybe even play with the GUI or the screen in general if something happens to the main character? Seems like it could offer some fun possibilities.

[xSigma]

Yes!

Sounds like a good idea.

Doesn't seem that hard to implement...

Is it?

[Valsuelm]

Mog is an epic creature in the Final Fantasy games, don't know which game was the first the animal/creature made an appearance in but it is (or was) Squaresoft's mascot character.

 

Mog as a character first appeared in FF VI (i highly recommend playing FF VI if you never have, it's easily one of the best), and I'm pretty positive Moogles first appeared in FF III.

 

I'm not sure Mog was ever an official mascot of Square though. RIP that gaming company... one of the best ever. SquareEnix is a mere shadow of that former glory.

 

Though I don't want to see a Mog dance in PE, I'm all for visually stunning and environment altering illusions and/or spell effects, especially if they can be implemented in a way that adds to gameplay and isn't just eye candy.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Valsuelm

[Tamerlane]

Sure, why not? Let's say you have an instant death spell of some sort, it could be part of the illusion school. The spell makes the enemy see something so horrifying that his heart stops. This could be represented on-screen with something that looks totally messed up, wich even the player might find disturbing. The spell might need to pass a check or fail. Let's say a will check, if the enemy fails it, he will die. The spell wouldn't work against constructs and undead. Sounds a lot like D&D, and it basically is, but just add cool enviromental effects to the spell.

That was literally a druid spell in BG2.

 

EDIT: Except I think it was actually "an image so beautiful the person who looks at it dies".

Edited December 16, 2012 by Tamerlane

[Labadal]

Sure, why not? Let's say you have an instant death spell of some sort, it could be part of the illusion school. The spell makes the enemy see something so horrifying that his heart stops. This could be represented on-screen with something that looks totally messed up, wich even the player might find disturbing. The spell might need to pass a check or fail. Let's say a will check, if the enemy fails it, he will die. The spell wouldn't work against constructs and undead. Sounds a lot like D&D, and it basically is, but just add cool enviromental effects to the spell.

That was literally a druid spell in BG2.

 

EDIT: Except I think it was actually "an image so beautiful the person who looks at it dies".

 

This has been done before, but I'd like for effects that reflects the description of the spell, that's all.

[Zenning]

I'd love a chanter spell along those lines. Sort of like the Chanter telling a joke so hilarious, that everybody who hears it dies. Like, whats the difference between a duck.

 

Or hell, maybe like one of the preform masterpieces from Pathfinder, like Stoneface (It's a story about a bard trying to make a woman smile for the first time, so he tells a joke about a flying carpet, a king, a ox-cart, and a space hamster. At the end of the story, the woman smiles, and the spell effect "Stone to Flesh" is made on everyone who hears it (Even if they're really stoned), or literally miming stone walls into existance.

[JFSOCC]

anything that can be used as a tool for a creative mind, I like.

[TMTVL]

Of course, chanters can work like truenamers. Brilliant.

[Osvir]

Curiosity: Truenamers?

[TMTVL]

A D&D3.5 class form one of the many splat books. They weren't playtested, and their abilities weakened as they levelled up. But the concept was fun: they'd learn "words of power" or "truenames" that can be used normal or in reverse, which allows for the standard damage ability to be used as a healing ability.

 

At 20th level they got an ability so one of their companions could say their name and they'd immediatly teleport to that person. I had fun with that.

 

It's generally considered to be a bad class, but for low levels, they kinda work like bards.

Edited December 19, 2012 by TMTVL

[Osvir]

Cool! That sounds great. How do you get innovative about it and how could it work for P:E graphically as well as mechanically?

[TMTVL]

Graphically, I suppose manifesting the effects as/in clouds of words could be interesting. Mechanically, the basic concept was solid: speaking truenames alters reality itself, and the more utterances (as the "spells" were called) the truenamer utters, the more difficult the skill check becomes (because of the nature of truenaming success was entirely based on skill checks). If the difficulty was centered more around the level/power of the utterance, then you'd remove the big deal breaker.

 

The main reason they resembled bards so much was because of attack bonus, speech based casting (meaning they are much more vulnerable to silencing then normal mages), the fact that they have a fair combination of healing, buffing and attack spells, and the fact they gained a free +3 knowledge bonus up to 4 times during levelling up. Also interesting was that they could scry on any named creature once per day.

[Osvir]

Silence spells! Also, great answers TMTVL

 

How would silence spells work, likewise, how do you counter illusions cast on your party? Could the entire screen turn "Hellfire!!!" on you and the mobs you were facing transformed to something much much much more intimidating than what they actually are? How do you face that?

 

This should change some battle animations and lower the parties morality.. could a "Dispel" spell be a directed AoE spell that only "clears"* the portion struck and removing the illusion (partially) so you get back normal morality in the area that is "dispelled".

 

*Like having 2 layers in photoshop, erasing the top layer in a circle of targeted area

Edited December 19, 2012 by Osvir

[ShadowTiger]

Well, dispelling illusions should be intelligence checks and once someone succeeds it should be charisma checks to help your party members figure it out.

 

Obviously dispel magic works just fine and is the principle method of removing illusions in many games.

 

I think that illusion is thought of in a very mechanical way these days instead of a conceptual one. So if you look at modern D&D, an illusion spell either makes a creature run away from the caster or attack an ally, something specific like that. These are really easy to put into the game since they are limited in scope and very specific.

 

Conceptual illusions are very vague and require detailed artwork to really appreciate what is happening, either to visualize the illusion or have reaction animations on the victim.

 

I see an illusionist as a controller, someone who doesn't usually kill people but tricks and disables them. I guess you could trick someone into running off a cliff in fear of an imaginary monster but usually you would mess with their minds and then walk right by them to your destination. Maybe if you were really sadistic you would make yourself invisible to the enemy and slowly kill them with your dagger and relish their frustration as they tried to figure out what was attacking them, or laugh as they assume they are being attacked by their greatest fear.

 

In a combat oriented game, illusions are not really the best thing to load up on. They also have a flaw of being useless against some enemies or some situations where direct damage spells are more universally effective.

[Jarrakul]

Complex visual effects for illusions could be potentially difficult, especially if they interacted with the environment. That said, some sort of big flash non-environment-adapting effect should be within the realms of reasonableness, and would be really cool.

 

For an example of the kinds of thing illusions could do in combat (but not necessary what they should look like) look into the recently-defunct City of Heroes. The Illusion powerset for controllers had a nice mix of blinding effects, fear effects, invisibility, illusionary damage, effective mind-control, and invulnerable aggro-drawing summons. It was lots of fun, and would make a good basis for an illusion school of magic in most games.

[Somna]

Well, dispelling illusions should be intelligence checks and once someone succeeds it should be charisma checks to help your party members figure it out.

 

Obviously dispel magic works just fine and is the principle method of removing illusions in many games.

 

I think that illusion is thought of in a very mechanical way these days instead of a conceptual one. So if you look at modern D&D, an illusion spell either makes a creature run away from the caster or attack an ally, something specific like that. These are really easy to put into the game since they are limited in scope and very specific.

 

Conceptual illusions are very vague and require detailed artwork to really appreciate what is happening, either to visualize the illusion or have reaction animations on the victim.

 

I see an illusionist as a controller, someone who doesn't usually kill people but tricks and disables them. I guess you could trick someone into running off a cliff in fear of an imaginary monster but usually you would mess with their minds and then walk right by them to your destination. Maybe if you were really sadistic you would make yourself invisible to the enemy and slowly kill them with your dagger and relish their frustration as they tried to figure out what was attacking them, or laugh as they assume they are being attacked by their greatest fear.

 

In a combat oriented game, illusions are not really the best thing to load up on. They also have a flaw of being useless against some enemies or some situations where direct damage spells are more universally effective.

 

Sounds like you might like this for a read (as long as you don't hate Skyrim!):

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/08/09/an-illusionist-in-skyrim-part-1/

[AGX-17]

Mog is an epic creature in the Final Fantasy games

 

I really wish there was an "ROFL" emoticon on this board. Setting aside the fact that you're referring to a comical mascot character whose ability was "Dance," an ability whose results were random and unrelated to illusion magic...

 

Illusion magic has been done before, albeit not sensibly.

 

Ultimately all it theoretically could do is confuse an enemy. Pretty much everything that has been associated with illusion magic in other games seems to fall solidly under the Cipher's intended role.

[Osvir]

Mog is an epic creature in the Final Fantasy games

 

I really wish there was an "ROFL" emoticon on this board. Setting aside the fact that you're referring to a comical mascot character whose ability was "Dance," an ability whose results were random and unrelated to illusion magic...

 

Illusion magic has been done before, albeit not sensibly.

 

Ultimately all it theoretically could do is confuse an enemy. Pretty much everything that has been associated with illusion magic in other games seems to fall solidly under the Cipher's intended role.

 

I explain that it isn't the "Dance" I am curious/interested about but the changing of the environmental aspects. The Spell Effect.

 

Illusion magic has been done before but as I can recall it has been done statistically rather than visually. "Poof" suddenly you have -5 on Strength. Why? Because someone threw an illusion spell at you, it didn't visually do anything but statistically and mechanically my character now suddenly has -5 Strength.

 

I can't think of any game where the Spell Effect for an illusion was done good visually.

 

An idea for an illusion spell:

Your party gets hit by an illusion spell, I've got the Fighter selected, in his view it looks like all of the team members are fighting him (a coup!). Switch to the Monk and from the Monk's perspective it looks like everyone is going after him.

 

Likewise, an illusion spell should and could make your Health start disappearing as well when you get hit (Only as an illusion). If the field is fiery flamey hellfire your party should take "damage" as part of the illusion. If you dispell the Magic you'll get back all the stamina and such, but if you stay in it your character gets knocked out (dispelling on a knocked out party member would give back all of the stamina as well).

 

Could the UI be affected by illusion spells? I said it in another post, how mean can illusion Spell Effect be?

[TMTVL]

Mechanics-wise if Cyphers have Illusion spells, wouldn't they be focused more around fooling a specific creature/a specific group of creatures whereas Wizard Illusions should be indiscriminate (so a wizzie could cast darkness and blind your fighters as well as the opponents)?

 

THat is, considering Cyphers are said to be based on psionicists, and when I think of psionics, I think of playing with people's minds.

[AGX-17]

I explain that it isn't the "Dance" I am curious/interested about but the changing of the environmental aspects. The Spell Effect.

 

But you're not talking about illusion magic at all, then, you're talking about the Geomancer (or Feng Shui Knight, for an accurate translation, Feng Shui falling under the Western category of Geomancy anyway,) class/Geomancy ability like in FFT. The character you're talking about filled the role of Geomancer in FF6 which had no class system.

 

Which wasn't illusion magic. At all. The idea of Feng Shui is sorcery based on spatial positioning/orientation, whose power is derived from the four cardinal directions and the center, these each being associated with an element in Chinese and derivative civilizations (Japan, Korea.) http://en.wikipedia....e_constellation In this case the five Japanese elements being relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_(Japanese_philosophy) .

Edited December 23, 2012 by AGX-17