Gun Control in the US

[casa]

...

Psychopaths like Mr. Breivik are much worse because usually nobody ever notices there's something wrong with them, and they are the ones who can play hide and seek and plan ahead for years.

...

 

Lol, Mr. Breivik is not psychopath. Most of these mass murderers are not psychopaths. Unfair society creates them again and again. Society not solving causes produces this ( oppression, exploitation, social alienation etc). It's easy to labeled everyone who discredits society as "Psychopath".

 

Breivik fits the standards for a psychopath perfectly, as far as my non-professional understanding goes. Cunning and manipulative, great self esteem, lack of empathy, emotionless etc. etc. etc. I'm not going around calling everyone who's different a psycho, but from what I've learned Breivik is a shining example of the clinical definition. And Breivik was for sure not a poor victim of society and bullying, unless you count in his clinical paranoia about his country being overtaken by muslims and multicultural facsists, whatever he calls it. And I actually read his pamphlet, btw.

 

And this school are "gun free zone". Suddenly this don't protect children from death.

 

Both signs are simply non-existant and not needed here where I live, because carrying weapons is prohibited anyway.

[Hurlshort]

I vote we just ignore Oby, as he is a simple troll and it is tasteless that he is even posting in this thread.

 

I have mentioned reforming psychiatric care multiple times, and by that I mean NOT doing more of the same. I have major reservations about how we medicate our youth. In the field of education, I am far from alone in this.

[Rosbjerg]

What's giving you that sense ? If it's online commentary, plenty seem to admit something's wrong (although that lot tends to cry down their state all the time anyway). Probably a case of not really knowing what a proper solution is. They can count on Canadians smugly telling them what the problem is - media article today described the Bushmaster as an ultra-destructive weapon of war.

 

Whenever something like this happens I always see news spots about gun control, the parent are to blame, the kid was ****ed, etc etc.. Never "does our culture somehow breed this behaviour?" "Why do we have so many shootings, could we as a society be doing something wrong".. It's, from my point of view, always focused on the regional or laws. Maybe it's just easier to dismiss when it's such a huge country, but I would never blame gun control or lack thereof, if people started going crazy here - I would naturally assume that something in our culture was leading instable kids to the conclusion that murder was the only way out. Espeically if was this frequent.

 

 

As for better sources on school shootings.. To be fair we would need to compare all kinds of violence in schools, from knife attacks and shootings to regular beatings - and then see if America has a higher frequency. I'll have better time wednesday, so I'll try to see if I can find some articles about it.

[Hurlshort]

To be fair, shifting society and culture as a whole is much more gargantuan task than gun bans, parental awareness programs, and psychiatric care reforms.

[Valsuelm]

If Anders Behring Breivik wasn't a psychopath, no one is. His actions: killing 70+ and injuring hundreds of random people he did not know while having no remorse or empathy for his victims is the very essence of what a psychopath is.

 

If anyone's picture could be placed next to the definition of psychopath in the dictionary it's his.

[Valsuelm]

I vote we just ignore Oby, as he is a simple troll and it is tasteless that he is even posting in this thread.

 

That is indeed a better idea.

[Rosbjerg]

To be fair, shifting society and culture as a whole is much more gargantuan task than gun bans, parental awareness programs, and psychiatric care reforms.

 

Of course it is, but then again - to truely prevent anything the culture must dismiss and disallow it (smoking habits only really started to go.down when everyone thought it was disgusting and dissaproved it). If your pop-culture glorifies violence, which is my impression, then you'll see more violence. Now, of course everyone dissaproves of this - I know.. but I hope you get my meaning.

 

My point is just, if you are unwilling to truely look at why this happens, you'll never be able to stop it effectively (and maybe you are, I'm not American so this is just my view from the outside).

[Malcador]

What's giving you that sense ? If it's online commentary, plenty seem to admit something's wrong (although that lot tends to cry down their state all the time anyway). Probably a case of not really knowing what a proper solution is. They can count on Canadians smugly telling them what the problem is - media article today described the Bushmaster as an ultra-destructive weapon of war.

 

Whenever something like this happens I always see news spots about gun control, the parent are to blame, the kid was ****ed, etc etc.. Never "does our culture somehow breed this behaviour?" "Why do we have so many shootings, could we as a society be doing something wrong".. It's, from my point of view, always focused on the regional or laws. Maybe it's just easier to dismiss when it's such a huge country, but I would never blame gun control or lack thereof, if people started going crazy here - I would naturally assume that something in our culture was leading instable kids to the conclusion that murder was the only way out. Espeically if was this frequent.

 

 

As for better sources on school shootings.. To be fair we would need to compare all kinds of violence in schools, from knife attacks and shootings to regular beatings - and then see if America has a higher frequency. I'll have better time wednesday, so I'll try to see if I can find some articles about it.

 

I've seen reports asking what you said - although that just leads to more magic bullet type solutions such as games, violent movies, lack of family values or what have you. Focusing on the regional law makes sense for the US, as things vary so much from state to state or so I think. Hard to know what Americans are doing as whole, heh, but I doubt they're thinking but ignoring some problem with their "system" or way of life or whatever. They have others lined up to tell them, anyway

[obyknven]

Breivik fits the standards for a psychopath perfectly, as far as my non-professional understanding goes. Cunning and manipulative, great self esteem, lack of empathy, emotionless etc. etc. etc. I'm not going around calling everyone who's different a psycho, but from what I've learned Breivik is a shining example of the clinical definition. And Breivik was for sure not a poor victim of society and bullying, unless you count in his clinical paranoia about his country being overtaken by muslims and multicultural facsists, whatever he calls it. And I actually read his pamphlet, btw.

 

You cant into psychiatry. If Breivik insane he can't be responsible for own crime and must be transferred from prison to asylum.

 

Breivik is typical victim of "Education system", oppressed gamma-male. Some sort of revenge to society.

 

Both signs are simply non-existant and not needed here where I live, because carrying weapons is prohibited anyway.

If guns are outlawed then only outlaws would have guns.

[obyknven]

I vote we just ignore Oby, as he is a simple troll and it is tasteless that he is even posting in this thread.

[Tsuga C]

Tsuga makes a good point about blaming the mother. Parenting is a major issue in today's society.

 

 

But then you lost me on the whole military style semi-auto's and high capacity magazines. It sounded insane, honestly. I just don't understand what you possibly need those for?

 

Just so we understand one another, it's the shooter who deserves 95% or more of the blame. I mentioned the mother because she should've had those weapons safely stored. She knew that her son was unstable and, according to interviews I've seen, had voiced worries to friends about his increasingly unstable behavior.

 

There's nothing at all insane about wanting to have an AR-15 clone, an AK clone, or any number of other military style semi-autos such as the excellent M1A from Springfield Armory. They're well made, reliable, accurate (today's AR-type semi-autos are vastly superior to what was available even as little as a generation ago) and parts are widely available for customization as the aftermarket for these firearms is thriving. They're popular for 3-Gun shoots, home defense, collecting, informal target shooting, and hunting. Yes, they're legal for hunting so long as you use 5-round magazines. As you're from The People's Republic of California, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this information is completely new to you.

 

Additionally, these firearms serve to keep our public officials leery when they start thinking of abrogating or infringing upon our rights. The Second Amendment wasn't written into the Bill of Rights immediately after the First Amendment to protect duck hunting or target shooting, after all. Our Founding Fathers recognized that government--any governement!--is a potential threat to rights of the citizenry and that naked force and the threat of naked force are two highly useful tools for keeping government in check. Military style semi-autos fit that bill quite nicely.

 

Edit: Merry Christmas!.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Tsuga C

[Volourn]

"Lol, Mr. Breivik is not psychopath. Most of these mass murderers are not psychopaths. Unfair society creates them again and again. Society not solving causes produces this ( oppression, exploitation, social alienation etc). It's easy to labeled everyone who discredits society as "Psychopath"."

 

Are you really defending that piece of crap? Wow.

 

 

"Breivik is typical victim of "Education system", oppressed gamma-male. Some sort of revenge to society."

 

Typical? If he was typical ie. the normal stuff like this would happen more often. Instead, this is an extremely rare event. He's anything but typical.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I'm not really convinced it's to do with bullying, or depression. Thousands of people get bullied, even more suffer from severe depression - they never do anything like this. Something was different about this person, and it makes sense to research into what.

 

And yet other people also get bullied, suffer from despression and do this. Just because thousands who are bullied and suffer from despression don't massacre people doesn't mean it applies to all people.

[Zoraptor]

The official verdict is that Breivik is not a psychopath- or at the least, not a statutorially insane psychopath- as he was found to be sane by the Norwegian court in his trial. So he, officially at least, was not mad when he committed his crimes.

[Gorgon]

I'm watching some senator suggesing a ban on clips with more than 10 rounds and reinstating the Clinton assault weapon ban. So, what, the guy would have had to reload once or twice giving the police time to show up ?. Is that the logic.

 

If people aren't wearing body armor why are they wasting time with a ban like that.

[casa]

Not in a juristic sense, no, although we all remember there was a long and heated debate about his mental health. But that does not mean he isn't a psychopath, it means that he was in full control and can be made responsible for the crimes he committed, contrary to e.g. someone with a psychosis, depression, under the influence of whatever that affected his mind temporarily. As far as I understand, being an undereducated troll, the diagnosis of psychopathy doesn't automatically mean the person cannot be made responsible, contrary to psychosis or other more temporary effects. Breivik was still diagnosed with various disorders , none of them leading to being declared insane though.

[Tsuga C]

If people aren't wearing body armor why are they wasting time with a ban like that.

 

Politics, politics, politics--they're attempting to take our bundle of rights away one stick at a time. First they re-impose the idiotic AWB, then they call for MORE restrictions when the next whack-job kills a group of people. The hoplophobes are playing a long-term game, not a short-term one.

[Hurlshort]

I'm pretty positive you aren't using that word correctly.

[Tsuga C]

I'm pretty positive you aren't using that word correctly.

 

Hoplophobia. I'm quite certain that I am, indeed, using it correctly.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Additionally, these firearms serve to keep our public officials leery when they start thinking of abrogating or infringing upon our rights. The Second Amendment wasn't written into the Bill of Rights immediately after the First Amendment to protect duck hunting or target shooting, after all. Our Founding Fathers recognized that government--any governement!--is a potential threat to rights of the citizenry and that naked force and the threat of naked force are two highly useful tools for keeping government in check. Military style semi-autos fit that bill quite nicely.

 

 

This is the sort of mindset that won't see change. When it comes to owning a gun for self defence (aside from those in dangerous professions that is) then you are basically saying that you don't have faith in society to keep law and order.

 

The last time I looked the US was a democracy and (conspiracies aside) the citizens have a choice to make. Do they want to live in a society where the system of laws, and those appointed to enforce them provide personal protection or not? If so, then over time powerful groups like the NRA will become less powerful to the point where serious restrictions regarding firearm ownership will start to happen. If not then the price they will continue to pay is a society where many people are armed to the teeth in order to protect themselves, which means that access to firearms is trivial.

 

It really comes down to if the people in the US trust the system enough to give up the individual power (perceived or real) owning guns gives them.

[Volourn]

"The official verdict is that Breivik is not a psychopath- or at the least, not a statutorially insane psychopath- as he was found to be sane by the Norwegian court in his trial. So he, officially at least, was not mad when he committed his crimes."

 

being legally insane and a layman's psychopath are two different things.

 

 

"then you are basically saying that you don't have faith in society to keep law and order."

 

By having a police force as well as an army you are absically saying you don't have faith in society to keep the peace on their own.

 

See how your nonsense wotrks when twisted?

 

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need laws outlawing murder because people wouldn't commit murder. But, people do, so we have alws.

 

In a perfect world, we could 100% trust the law and the gov't but history and even current times has proven that isn't always the case. How many times have we heard about a police offer or gov't official abusing their power?

 

Sorry, dude, you seem to eb the type who thinks it is okay for the gov't to have 100% control of anything. Gov't already has a lot of power. It don't need more.

 

Quite frankly, this tragedy likely could have been avoided using current laws. Banning more types of guns and making it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns won't stop it from happening. Just ask us Kanadians about how are avrious gun bans have perfectly protected us from pyschopaths. It doesn't. EVAR.

[Tsuga C]

...you are basically saying that you don't have faith in society to keep law and order.

 

The common thread throughout human history is that governments, unless actively opposed and kept in check by a diligent and periodically violent citizenry, inevitably accumulate power at the expense of the liberty of the citizens and then begin oppressing their own people. When the vote fails to change the government's course of action, then it's time to use lethal force to correct the situation. And, trust me on this, that time is fast approaching. I anticipate that within the next 20 years or so we'll be looking at civil unrest that'll make the 1960s look like a minor tiff at a Cub Scout meeting.

 

The last time I looked the US was a democracy...

 

No, we're a constitutional republic. There's a huge difference, but maybe the fact that many of our low-info citizens don't know the difference helps to explain why we're running into trouble and voting for statists.

 

It really comes down to if the people in the US trust the system enough to give up the individual power (perceived or real) owning guns gives them.

 

As a student of history, I deeply hope and pray that our citizenry will have the good sense to remain armed and highly suspicious of any attempt by the federal government to accumulate more power. Governments can never be trusted with a monopoly on force, after all, because they quickly devolve into tyranny when they achieve such a monopoly. And, yes, a soft tyranny is ultimately as undesirable as a brutal one and usually leads to one in the end.

[Valsuelm]

 

This is the sort of mindset that won't see change. When it comes to owning a gun for self defence (aside from those in dangerous professions that is) then you are basically saying that you don't have faith in society to keep law and order.

 

The last time I looked the US was a democracy and (conspiracies aside) the citizens have a choice to make. Do they want to live in a society where the system of laws, and those appointed to enforce them provide personal protection or not? If so, then over time powerful groups like the NRA will become less powerful to the point where serious restrictions regarding firearm ownership will start to happen. If not then the price they will continue to pay is a society where many people are armed to the teeth in order to protect themselves, which means that access to firearms is trivial.

 

It really comes down to if the people in the US trust the system enough to give up the individual power (perceived or real) owning guns gives them.

 

Sometimes mindsets shouldn't change. There are things worth standing up for, liberty is certainly one of them.

 

The United States is a Republic, not a Democracy. Though unfortunately many (as a result of miseducation and propaganda in the news and from your socialist or incompetent politician) actually think we do live in a democracy. Tip, as I know some are going to look up the difference right now: If you don't readily know the difference, you have A LOT of homework to do on what's going on in the world.

 

The decision was made long ago. The United States of America would not have existed long without the 2nd Amendment or the other nine that made up the Bill of Rights. Some things should not be changed. The first ten amendments to the US Constitution are some of those things.

 

Do the people in the US trust the system enough? Depends on who you ask. Overall though, the short answer to that is no. And I'll posit that anyone who says yes has their head in the sand or is just too young to realize just how much they're being lied to.

[Gorth]

“A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy”

 

Of course, a "socialist, incompetent politician" like Theodore Roosevelt is not exactly a poster boy for the idea that things needs to evolve. Oh, wait...

 

You guys sound like Adam Lanza's mother. I need more guns, because the evil government is going to be here any minute.

 

Could it be that some people are completely brainwashed to follow the twisted interpretation of the second amendment the way Taliban fundamentalists interpret the Quran? Any which way that suits those that profit from it? Or did technology change and legislation simply didn't keep up, because things evolved since the 1789 musket that militia were expected to have at hand to defend against external aggressors? That an anachronism has survived doesn't make it sacred, it just makes it an anachronism.

[Hurlshort]

I'm pretty positive you aren't using that word correctly.

 

Hoplophobia. I'm quite certain that I am, indeed, using it correctly.

 

No, you clearly aren't. The current reaction to guns is a direct consequence of a horrible event where children were shot to death.

 

"May cause sweating, faintness, discomfort, rapid pulse, nausea, sleeplessness, nondescript fears, more, at mere thought of guns. Presence of working firearms may cause panic attack."

 

Yeah, I've got none of those symptoms, I doubt anyone here does.

 

Rather than calling names and getting aggressive, I'd like to hear some constructive ideas about how we can avoid future tragedies.