Torches!

[Hertzila]

A few things if this is going to be implemented:

 

1. Allow me to knock out enviromental light sources, Thief style. If I'm playing a rogue (which I will) I want to be able to shut torches and lanterns off to make my sneaking easier. Even if my rogue won't need it (skills, invisibilty ability), the warrior who couldn't sneak past a sleeping deaf-blind zombie most certainly is going to need the edge. The whole party is going to have to cross the place so...

The AI would of course react to this, one or twice he might just wonder how strong the wind has gotten or how a magelight seems to need a recharge but when lights seem to consistently go dark, it's going to ring some alarm bells.

 

2. Throwable torches and flares. As said, a thief with a lantern is going to stick out like a sore thumb painted in neon lights but I'm not sure if rogue, or anybody else for that matter, is going to have any kind on night/heat vision ability, so a throwable light source is a must. Whether it's a torch or a flare or some "light grenade" we can make, it'll be necessary. Good for judging the depth of a pit too. Heck, you could turn it into a weapon if some enemies were weak towards the light (shadow monsters?).

 

3. Belt-hung lanterns. Torches might be the initial go-to light source and keep themselves as the easy and disposable one, but at least at some point I want to have some kind of light source which won't take up a precious arm to hold. A lantern hung from the belt or a magical light crystal attached to the jacket would work well.

 

4. Have a "put out" button for the light source. Unless it's a one-off thing and it can't be put out, I'd favor a simple button to put out the light rather than having to stow it into my pockets to shut the light. More of a convinience thing but highly preferable.

 

5. If the game has swimming, include waterproof light source. Depending on how it's used, this would be both useful and for convinience.

 

6. Have certain things cause momentary lights. More of a neat little thing than anything necessary, but it could be cool for lightning spells and muskets and such to cause momentary extremely strong flashes of light that besides looking cool could allow for certain uses for them. Allowing at least a glimpse of the enemy, certain enemies reacting negatively towards it, puzzles...

[Dragoonlordz]

I have no real issues with using torches but to me would make much more sense to have a caster in your party with a form of light orb type spell. Having to carry around a lot of torches would become tedious especially if expendable. What happens if cannot find another when already really deep into a dark place, no way to find way out due to lack of any more torch resource. So given that if go with dark areas requiring light source, either us spell or scenery lighting. For example torches on walls you can light or snuff out and do not go out unless you put them out yourself as opposed to carrying around many torch items. I do not want to carry lots of torches, so maybe a flint set for lighting the already existing torches on walls or use of fire or light spells.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Osvir]

A few things if this is going to be implemented:

 

1. Allow me to knock out environmental light sources, Thief style. If I'm playing a rogue (which I will) I want to be able to shut torches and lanterns off to make my sneaking easier. Even if my rogue won't need it (skills, invisibility ability), the warrior who couldn't sneak past a sleeping deaf-blind zombie most certainly is going to need the edge. The whole party is going to have to cross the place so...

The AI would of course react to this, one or twice he might just wonder how strong the wind has gotten or how a mage light seems to need a recharge but when lights seem to consistently go dark, it's going to ring some alarm bells.

 

2. Throw-able torches and flares. As said, a thief with a lantern is going to stick out like a sore thumb painted in neon lights but I'm not sure if rogue, or anybody else for that matter, is going to have any kind on night/heat vision ability, so a throw-able light source is a must. Whether it's a torch or a flare or some "light grenade" we can make, it'll be necessary. Good for judging the depth of a pit too. Heck, you could turn it into a weapon if some enemies were weak towards the light (shadow monsters?).

 

3. Belt-hung lanterns. Torches might be the initial go-to light source and keep themselves as the easy and disposable one, but at least at some point I want to have some kind of light source which won't take up a precious arm to hold. A lantern hung from the belt or a magical light crystal attached to the jacket would work well.

 

4. Have a "put out" button for the light source. Unless it's a one-off thing and it can't be put out, I'd favor a simple button to put out the light rather than having to stow it into my pockets to shut the light. More of a convenience thing but highly preferable.

 

I like all 4 of these. Specially number 1.

 

Prone stance is going be a part of the game mechanics as well (crawling through dungeon holes). Just search "Prone Project Eternity" in Google and you should find it. Nvm I got it, Reddit Q&A and Update #16 with Tim Cain. So swimming could possibly be in for some specific occasions where it would not be awkward (prone/swimming.. pretty much the same animation).

 

Also, prone and crawling through some hole in a cave, are you telling me you won't need a trusty torch?

 

Here is a thread and thoughts on realism.

[AGX-17]

The orange end of the color wheel for the bad guys' blue (lazy work, Obsidian artist, btw.)

Lazy work for hastily assembled concept art? The very nerve! They should have spent weeks and a big chunk of the budget getting the image just so.

 

You should be an art critical; you at least know what a color wheel is. LOL.

 

Where did you get this information? Which developer personally told you this? Since you're implicitly claiming to be privy to the inner workings of the game's development. If this was hastily done "concept" art everyone in the industry should be in a bidding war over the artist responsible.

 

The image is obviously not hasitly done, nor is it concept art, it's promotional art. It is a finished high quality image, not some storyboard sketch scrawled out in pencil. Yet that doesn't mean the use of an orange/blue contrast is not lazy and overdone.

 

http://www.slashfilm...-movie-posters/

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Color_theory

 

 

Having to bring torches could work well with the same game mode that forces you to keep track of food, sleeping arrangements and whatever else was announced.

It wouldn't be a good idea in the non-hardcore mode (going with the name for it in Fallout New Vegas).

 

I'd hope they'd just make torches more available and last longer in the easier modes, perhaps have more of them in chests.

 

Like I said in an earlier post, you're not going to go into every pitch black dungeon carrying 2-3 torches, you're going to have an ox cart laden with wood, dirty rags and flammable liquid that you're going to haul to the bottom of every dungeon if you're a well-prepared team, which seems rather excessive.

Edited December 2, 2012 by AGX-17

[Heresiarch]

As much as I like torches in first-person (TES) and third-person (Witcher, mostly) RPGs, I must say that they would be absolutely dreadful in an isometric one. Things are small enough as they are, no need to kill the player's eyes with darkness too.

[Tamerlane]

As much as I like torches in first-person (TES) and third-person (Witcher, mostly) RPGs, I must say that they would be absolutely dreadful in an isometric one. Things are small enough as they are, no need to kill the player's eyes with darkness too.

Counterpoint:

 

[Hormalakh]

Other counterpoint: XCOM.

[Heresiarch]

As much as I like torches in first-person (TES) and third-person (Witcher, mostly) RPGs, I must say that they would be absolutely dreadful in an isometric one. Things are small enough as they are, no need to kill the player's eyes with darkness too.

Counterpoint:

Then counter-counterpoint, I suppose:

 

Anyone cares to finish the combo?

 

Other counterpoint: XCOM.

How about a visual proof? Can't remember a single dark area in game besides the parts, covered by fog of war.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Heresiarch

[Hormalakh]

^Umm look at page 2 or 1...I put two videos there. Did you not read the rest of the thread?

 

Edit: Here it is. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62578-torches/page__st__20#entry1285433

Edited December 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Dragoonlordz]

One of the things that annoys me most about Legend of Grimrock (as an example) which has the torch mechanics, is the fact I am forced to carry around truly vast amounts of spare torches, incase one goes out and if no mana to cast light spells. I would prefer scenery based lighting, torches on the walls and such to be interactive where can light it or put it out as the player. Maybe the rogue or thief can have a skill that improves his night vision regarding the aspect another mentioned earlier. I do not mind have a spell or single flint set if required to light torches or such that is already present but I just REALLY don't want to have to carry around half dozen torches like in I did in Grimrock.

[Aedelric]

I am fine with torches, so long as the light radius is reasonable when exploring dark areas. I hope Eternity will get some stealth elements affected by light, where we can extinguish fires and torches in the environment or bightly light an area to reveal sneaking foes.

[Tamerlane]

I don't know that a picture of a decently lit room is really a counterpoint. I posted Diablo 2 as an example of a dark dungeon done well in an isometric game. Diablo 3 does not un-make Diablo 2.

 

And Xcom was dark as balls. ****ing night missions, man.

 

 

 

 

[Hormalakh]

I think they can obviously play with the mechanic to make it fun and not too "grindy." We aren't going for realism here. We're going for a mechanic that would make certain aspects of the game more interesting (IMMERSHUN).

 

A simple "light orb" spell or a set of torches that don't run out (since it would just be annoying to have to keep carrying loads of torches). Or maybe carrying a set of "flint and timber" would be sufficient to always start a light. You could imagine that there would be lots of wood (from barrels, crates, chests, etc) to burn, but the only issue is starting the fire.

 

The point isn't to make this realistic. It's to add depth to gameplay, and to increase dramatic tension. Figuring out the exact gameplay mechanics would be up to the devs. But the idea isn't inherently too "grindy" or immersion-breaking.

 

Another game that hasn't come out yet that is doing this is Sui Generis. Here is a video of what I'm talking about. This might not work for PE because of the engine, but the idea still stands.

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[LadyCrimson]

What is that veil of light that seems to surround and light up the party in the 2nd picture?

 

Whatever it is, I like it. There is also an ominous dark tentacle beast in the darkness~Fog of War.

 

Well, it's obviously not a torch.

 

Aside from the elf mage's hand glowing rather obviously with magical power, It's highly likely just an artistic element meant to emphasize "these guys are who you should focus on." The orange end of the color wheel for the bad guys' blue (lazy work, Obsidian artist, btw.)

I think the glow is actually an extension of the mage's glowing-hand spellcasting. His spell is doing some kind of radius ground effect that spreads out. The Monk has the glow around his fists, presumably from casting some Fisty-damage spell, and Cadegund has the glow around her back/shield with her hand touching an amulet as if casting a protective spell. eg, it's the artists representation of a cast-spell effect.

 

....and, er, to be on topic ... I like it when games have darkened areas that require extra lighting to see really clearly, but I don't tend to like it to be actually pitch black. So you can, if you want, walk around in dim lighting, unable to see things well in the distance, but if you use a torch/spell, rooms become well lit and with their original colors (if any) and you can see much more detail from a lot farther. That is, you can play without using the torches/spells, but there is visual advantage to using them.

[Heresiarch]

^Umm look at page 2 or 1...I put two videos there. Did you not read the rest of the thread?

 

Edit: Here it is. http://forums.obsidi...20#entry1285433

Nah, I just skipped to last page and started writing random stuff like I always do.

 

Just for the record, that's UFO not X-Com. X-Com is a 2012 game. Which I assumed you were talking about, because I hope to God that PE looks nothing like a game from year 1994.

 

 

I don't know that a picture of a decently lit room is really a counterpoint. I posted Diablo 2 as an example of a dark dungeon done well in an isometric game. Diablo 3 does not un-make Diablo 2.

No, but I like Diablo 3 much more than Diablo 2, since it does not make me crank up brightness in dungeons to actually see things.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Heresiarch

[Hormalakh]

^Umm look at page 2 or 1...I put two videos there. Did you not read the rest of the thread?

 

Edit: Here it is. http://forums.obsidi...20#entry1285433

Nah, I just skipped to last page and started writing random stuff like I always do.

 

Just for the record, that's UFO not X-Com. X-Com is a 2012 game. Which I assumed you were talking about, because I hope to God that PE looks nothing like a game from year 1994.

 

Blasphemy! You don't know XCOM? The 2012 game XCOM is a spiritual successor to the 1994 game. XCOM is XCOM. The first one was marketed as X-Com: UFO Defense in North America. [source: ."]http://en.wikipedia....Enemy_Unknown]. In either case, anyone who knows X-COM/UFO whatever, would have known what I'm talking about.

 

In regards to graphics, that stuff changes with technology. The actual implementation is what matters. Obviously this isn't going to look like that graphically, but I would like a similar aesthetic when dealing with light/dark.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[LadyCrimson]

No, but I like Diablo 3 much more than Diablo 2, since it does not make me crank up brightness in dungeons to actually see things.

Diablo3 had no sense of creepy atmosphere. I'm not going to claim it was only because of a lack of darkness (even the caves weren't dark), but .... it was pretty dull.

I don't remember having to crank up brightness in Diablo2 to see anything. I thought they did a good job of having it be dim/moody without being blind. Maybe you needed a new monitor.

[Hormalakh]

 

....and, er, to be on topic ... I like it when games have darkened areas that require extra lighting to see really clearly, but I don't tend to like it to be actually pitch black. So you can, if you want, walk around in dim lighting, unable to see things well in the distance, but if you use a torch/spell, rooms become well lit and with their original colors (if any) and you can see much more detail from a lot farther. That is, you can play without using the torches/spells, but there is visual advantage to using them.

 

I concur. That was how XCOM: UFO Defense did it. The one from 1994. Not the 2012 one. For those trying to be pedantic.

[Hormalakh]

Considering the cities and night-time, I do think that it would be fine for there to not require too much dynamic lighting for visualization. The way I see it, the cities would be filled with ambient lighting from all the taverns and housing, etc, so there would be sufficient low-level light to see mostly everything (perhaps a few alleyways can be lit - or hidden in shadows - dynamically.

 

However, dungeons, caves, sewers, any place without any good ambient lighting (the forest night on a new moon) should definitely need "torches." How this is implemented I'm not sure. But a game in 1994 did it, so there has to be a way to do it tastefully since the game will be 2D backgrounds and full 3D rendition is not possible.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Dragoonlordz]

Diablo3 had no sense of creepy atmosphere. I'm not going to claim it was only because of a lack of darkness (even the caves weren't dark), but .... it was pretty dull.

I don't remember having to crank up brightness in Diablo2 to see anything. I thought they did a good job of having it be dim/moody without being blind. Maybe you needed a new monitor.

 

Your right in that there was no hesitance by me at least due to the darkness and line of sight in that game. The hesitancy completley revolved around knowing any monster regardless of line of sight or light around any corner will kick my butt due to the difficulty of the monsters affixes whether it was bright and middle of day or dark in a dungeon or cave did not matter. In the end I think darkness should play a role in PE, I will be okay with any way they do that as long as I am not forced to carry around lot's of torches. At no point should I be unable to see where I am going just because did not carry enough torches or firewood and at no point should I be forced to have a backpack full of firewood or torches. So I prefer they rely more on interactive set objects and/or skill based lighting whether light spells or improved vision skills.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Heresiarch]

No, but I like Diablo 3 much more than Diablo 2, since it does not make me crank up brightness in dungeons to actually see things.

Diablo3 had no sense of creepy atmosphere. I'm not going to claim it was only because of a lack of darkness (even the caves weren't dark), but .... it was pretty dull.

I don't remember having to crank up brightness in Diablo2 to see anything. I thought they did a good job of having it be dim/moody without being blind. Maybe you needed a new monitor.

Diablo 2 didn't have any creepy atmosphere nor do Diablo games need it. It isn't Dead Space after all. And the game was too dark on normal brightness levels, so my eyes got tired after playing a while. I don't care to repeat the experience, especially in an isometric RPG.

 

Darkness is good when you expect danger popping out of there at any moment. That kind of thing keeps you on edge. If darkness is simply there to obscur your vision, there is little point. Same thing if you can hit pause to grab a cup of tea and a muffin at any given moment.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Heresiarch

[jezz555]

Another game that hasn't come out yet that is doing this is Sui Generis. Here is a video of what I'm talking about. This might not work for PE because of the engine, but the idea still stands.

 

 

That looked really good, and the kickstarter is only like 160,000. I hope PE looks that good.

Edited December 3, 2012 by jezz555

[LadyCrimson]

Diablo 2 didn't have any creepy atmosphere nor do Diablo games need it. It isn't Dead Space after all. And the game was too dark on normal brightness levels, so my eyes got tired after playing a while. I don't care to repeat the experience, especially in an isometric RPG.

Diablo2 didn't have a lot of creepy atmosphere, I'd agree. It was a big step down from Diablo1, imo, in that regard. But it still had more than Diablo3.

I can understand that some people don't like darkish games/areas and everyone has different eyes (I sit in my PC room with no lights but the glow of the monitor most of the time, myself). But ... to have everything as visually light as if I'm walking around in daylight everywhere, that just doesn't feel very immersive. I don't walk around in pure daylight or 1000 florescent tube lit offices all the time in real life. I like lighting that fits the situation. An unexplored, unoccupied cave shouldn't be brightly lit, and even dungeons with torches are unlikely to be sunshine bright.

 

If darkness is simply there to obscur your vision, there is little point. Same thing if you can hit pause to grab a cup of tea and a muffin at any given moment.

The point is atmosphere (if you walked into a dark cave, you're going to need a flashlight, right?)

 

It's been a long long time since I've played a (singleplayer) game that didn't allow me to pause at least almost whenever I wanted, even if only via the ESC button. Even the few NES games I played let you pause. Not saying games that don't let you pause don't exist, but...I'm pretty sure P.E. isn't going to be one of them. There's no gameplay point to pause-whenver, but there is a real-life point to them.

[PrimeJunta]

Considering the cities and night-time, I do think that it would be fine for there to not require too much dynamic lighting for visualization. The way I see it, the cities would be filled with ambient lighting from all the taverns and housing, etc, so there would be sufficient low-level light to see mostly everything (perhaps a few alleyways can be lit - or hidden in shadows - dynamically.

 

Mm. I lived in a city with limited electricity and barely any streetlights (Kathmandu, 1987) for a year, and it was pretty damn dark at night. People don't light lamps just for the hell of it, and then they use the bare minimum, if they have to use a fuel. It was pretty exciting actually, trying to find your way around after dark...

[Osvir]

[EDIT]Here's a cookie for you when this post is being hard on you because of wall of text

[/EDIT]

 

Magic & the Economy for city lights. Of course that'd be normal light as well (lanterns). Guards walking around with torches at night. If there were 2-3 maintenance Wizards in a town, I want to advocate for Wizards with Lanterns again.

 

Make Day and Night actually MATTER and be FUNCTIONAL there is also a link in that thread to another Day/Night thread (2nd post by none other than...).

 

The TotalBiscuit interview is good to watch as well (here is a thread about the interview). Why would I need a campfire if it's not going to be dark? (Left side of the picture across the river)

 

Even Enemy Unknown (can't we just split them like that? UFO & EnemU) has important Day/Night sequences. Hrm, but 1994 was first... *shrug*

 

Nah, I just skipped to last page and started writing random stuff like I always do.

 

It is alright, I do it too. Post first, read after (because I might have a thought or an idea right NAOW but reading makes me "forget" the entire idea). I value this as counter-productive because often someone else has already said what I want to say (with different words). But it gets you into the conversation/discussion. I call it "Entering Discussion"-post.

 

At no point should I be unable to see where I am going just because did not carry enough torches or firewood and at no point should I be forced to have a backpack full of firewood or torches. So I prefer they rely more on interactive set objects and/or skill based lighting whether light spells or improved vision skills.

 

So how do you do it instead? I don't want a backpack full of firewood either, in LoG you don't need to have 33 Torches in your backpack but the OCD in me just picks up everything I find. You need perhaps 4-5 to cycle between, you get 33 because you don't know or you expect that you won't find torches later on and you want to be sure you have as many as possible when wall torches start to run out.

 

Could a Torch be an upgradeable off-hand item? I really need to update this Wall of Text in a Word document with navigation pane and clean/polish it. Coming soon! Could a Torch simply be an ability for a Utility character? Why does the torch have to be a wooden one? It is a magical setting so perhaps I could have a Torch Maul or a Torch Mace for the Fighter, thanks to the Wizard lighting it up or whatnot. Perhaps the Paladin could have an "Aura of Light" which makes it easier to see through the Darkness (could the Fog of War be an enemy by itself? "The Darkness" is a popular theme in many Good/Evil settings. I can only think of the Heartless in Kingdom Hearts as a pre-dominant "Shadow; Part of the Darkness" enemy).

 

There are so many ways to be innovative with it. Thus far we've taken our torches down in this dungeon thread and we've been looking at "Pros/Cons" with having torches in a game. What's the solution for these problems? What are the problems with the pros? What can be done better? What can be done worse? How innovative, and how forgiving are you about "realism"? If torches are going to be in, they're obviously going to have to last more than 2 minutes, could 1 torch last forever? I refer back to my Wall of Text post about "Growth" and "Armor"+"Resources".

 

I also want to bring up this point again: Torches being an early level/early game item which gets thrown away/unused after a point because your party grows beyond having a torch. You might be asking "Why should they be in if they are useless?", and I'll answer you "Why should every single shop keeper have the Leather Armor and every single Bandit dropping it? It is pretty much useless.". The fun thread, about the leather armor and the Bandit camp. That was hilarious (referring to being recruited by the Bandits "Here is your long sword and leather armor. Standard Bandit-ware" or something like that).

 

Take down a Bandit = Get resources = Upgrade Armor/Weapons/Items

 

P.S. and unrelated cryptic message to someone~ (go figure): Pirate's always have a navigator or a cartographer, he's the creative/odd one of the bunch, hence why he's burning the edges. A creative person tends to be artsy for a purpose, that's why it is never tedious.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Osvir