Piracy and DRM

[Kimuji]

I stopped pirating games when I could afford them, in my case it is as simple as that. I pirated a lot of games when I was a teen, but at the same time all my money was already going into video games. I would have had to rob a bank (or steal my parent's money... please kids, don't do that) if I wanted to buy more games.

So, in my personnal case, I hardly consider that I hurted developpers studios by pirating games when I was younger. In that regard I think it would be interesting to know how old is the average pirate.

 

Like I said one of the reasons that make me think I didn't hurt the game industry when I was younger is that everytime I had the money, I did buy my games. And that's propably the problem with the new pirates, unlike many "old" gamers, they are not really video games enthusiasts. Back in the 90's the industry wasn't the mass market is has become today, back in the days I was buying video games simply because they were video games, now people buy them because it has become a common consumer product, something between butter and bread on your shopping list. Or some just buy them because it's what you are supposed to do if you want to be a real cool teenager/young adult, that's what they are being told. We didn't buy games in order to look cool or because "everybody has to own this game". Today there are many more gamers then there used to be, but I'm not sure there are so many more real enthusiasts among them, not in the way we were back then. I think many editors are overestimating the true size of the audience. By that I mean, they overestimate the number of people who actually care for the games they are buying. And thus come with oversized projects that will require insane funds just for exposure and marketing purpose.

 

What I'm about t say will probably is maybe a bit extreme but... on one hand video games can't be killed, there will always be people to keep making them, but on the other hand developpement studios can die. Piracy can do than, and so do major editors and blind mass consumption. I'd be curious to know how much small or independant studios have been killed because of the biggest editors. Companies are not playing hands in hands gently, this is not a big family, dirty tricks are part of the rules, and a handful of major companies can steal a whole market. Look around, it happens in every single sector of the economy, the automotive industry for instance, you can't "pirate" a car but now all the independant brands you had 20 or 30 years ago are beeing held in a reduced number of hands. I'm pretty sure that some of the most mediatically exposed game franchise (who said C... o. D... ?) kill diversity just as much as piracy does. And what is behind the biggest franchise? Heavy, real heavy advertising and marketing. The art of making people want what they had never thought they would want before. But is it all artificial, there's no passion behind this, just induced compulsive buying mechanics. My point is, sometimes if sales don't meet the expectations it means that the real audience and the market are not as big as one would think. You can't rely on mass consumption, I think that all the studios who fail to evaluate how big their real audience is will disappear. Piracy is not something you can eradicate, you have to learn how to make it harmless. One of the solutions to avoid being harmed by piracy is to make games for an audience that actually care for your work. And Kickstarter is one way among others to acheive that goal.

 

On a more general concern, we need a change in consumption patterns, the way things works today only allows the biggest to survive. Studios who don't realize they can't compete with the major players if they make and sell their games with the same logic in mind and using the same channels will fail. And no DRM will save them from that. On the other hand our "duty" as video game enthusiats is to encourage people around us to inquire more about what they are going to buy, encourage intelligent consumption: who made this game? what are this studio's other games? what are my expectations? why is it different from the other games in its genre? Do I know enough about this game to make my decision? In short we, the video games enthousiasts, because we are so much more than simple customers, have to kill the blind consumer that lies in our less informed friends in order to make them actually care for what they buy and only buy what they actually care for. Websites like GOG work because they are targeting people who know what's what about video games and are willing to pay for what they like.

 

And I will conclude on this, I'm not worried about PE, first we raised substential funds, and second as much as I love old school crpgs, it has become a niche. And niche games may be pirated but they wouldn't have been bought by the said pirates anyway, because only the real fans care and are ready to pay for them. If you want to help PE, talk about it around you, explain why it is a unique project. It works a thousand times better than any DRM. DRMs can't convince people to buy games, but a well informed friend's advice can.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Kimuji

[Dream]

Ubisoft has some of the most draconian DRM ever and even their games are up on crack sites and torrents BEFORE they're released. The only truly effective DRM is an always online approach where a portion of the game's data is handled on the outside servers (D3, WoW, etc.). Seeing as pretty much nobody wants that, putting any amount of time or effort into DRM is simply a waste of resources.

 

As for making pirating difficulty; it already is. It is far easier to buy **** on steam, origin, gog.com, etc. than it is to torrent cracks and scan them with anti virus software (not to mention having to repeat this process every time there's a patch or dlc). Anyone who is willing to go through all that bull**** to save a few bucks would not have bought the game in the first place.

 

There are DRMs that stay uncracked for years. They exist. These DRMs, perhaps with the caveats I stated, can be effective barriers to a significant amount of piracy. Other than DRMs, there are other copyright protections that could be taken (someone else posted about this in this thread) to reduce piracy.

 

Name one game. If there existed a DRM that couldn't be cracked you can be damn sure Assassin's Creed would have it.

[Hormalakh]

Name one game. If there existed a DRM that couldn't be cracked you can be damn sure Assassin's Creed would have it.

 

The article I linked to has it:

 

StarForce

 

The first protection system to truly fall afoul of user anger is StarForce. Developed around ten years ago by a Russian company called Protection Technology, it was in common use in a range of games, and still is in the Russian version of several recent games such as STALKER: Clear Sky. Complaints about potential StarForce-related issues had been brewing for years, much the same as virtually any other protection system. However something happened in 2005 to change the way in which StarForce would be viewed forever: StarForce became extremely difficult to crack due to the methods that Version 3.0 of StarForce started employing. As we've already discussed, these methods meant that the StarForce-protected UbiSoft title Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory released in March 2005 remained uncracked for over a year. As if by coincidence, towards the end of 2005 with StarForce 3 still uncracked a determined public hate campaign suddenly sprang up, lobbying UbiSoft in particular to permanently remove StarForce.

[alanschu]

Before I pirate something ask myself whether I would ever buy it. If my answer is no, I would not buy this and if I couldn't get it for free I simply wouldn't have it

 

If something is worth literally nothing to you, why is it worth your time?

 

I stopped pirating eons ago, but even then I have realized that while actively buying games, I have absolutely no shortage of games to play. There's no point in my pirating something when I have a Steam backlog with over 50 games I haven't even touched yet.

 

Coupled with things like Steam sales, it just means I have to wait and be opportunistic if I am super desperate to play a game. I don't even get mad if I buy a game at 50% off and learn it was 75% off the next day, because I obviously attributed the game to be worth at least 50% off (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it).

[Dream]

Effective, unobtrusive copyright protections can do that. But these need support from gamers. I think we're on the same page.

 

StarForce

 

Those two things are about as far apart as you can get. There are no effective and unobtrusive DRMs, and the reason Starforce worked so well was because it was anything but unobtrusive. On top of that the amount of absolute hatred (as well valid concerns about computer security) that Starforce generates would cost P:E FAR more sales than would be gained from pirates purchasing the game.

[Valsuelm]

The article I linked to has it:

 

StarForce

 

Starforce was cracked a long time ago. Though it did hold up for awhile. It also is the kind of DRM (malware/spyware whathaveyou) that I would refuse to buy a game over, no matter how good the game was. Ubisoft has never made a game that interested me though, so I didn't miss out on anything.

[Hormalakh]

Effective, unobtrusive copyright protections can do that. But these need support from gamers. I think we're on the same page.

 

StarForce

 

Those two things are about as far apart as you can get. There are no effective and unobtrusive DRMs, and the reason Starforce worked so well was because it was anything but unobtrusive. On top of that the amount of absolute hatred (as well valid concerns about computer security) that Starforce generates would cost P:E FAR more sales than would be gained from pirates purchasing the game.

Name one game. If there existed a DRM that couldn't be cracked you can be damn sure Assassin's Creed would have it.

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

 

The article I linked to has it:

 

StarForce

 

Starforce was cracked a long time ago. Though it did hold up for awhile. It also is the kind of DRM (malware/spyware whathaveyou) that I would refuse to buy a game over, no matter how good the game was. Ubisoft has never made a game that interested me though, so I didn't miss out on anything.

 

Starforce is apparently still being used in Russia. The article does a much better job than I could in addressing your concern about it being spyware and computer security. To sum it up, the claims have been exaggerated. I would recommend both of you to read it.

 

But like I said, I only care about P:E.

 

The idea that the DRM lost a lot of goodwill among gamers however is addressed, partially in my OP. It would be OEI's responsibility to consider whether the backlash (and financial costs) against a DRM like that would be worth the gains in game sales. I don't think so. But there must be an answer that most people would be happy with. At the same time, we shouldn't allow our emotions to get the better of us and declare all DRMs worthless or spyware. There is a lot for all of us to learn, and I believe that the discussion should be one where informed comments are given precedence.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Dream]

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

 

Actually I asked for an example of a game, not a DRM system that was not only bad for your comp (not as bad as some people say, but still not exactly good), but has been cracked.

 

But here, give us an example of your mythical DRM that is both effective and unobtrusive, because it doesn't exist (since if it did everyone would be using it).

 

Starforce is apparently still being used in Russia. The article does a much better job than I could in addressing your concern about it being spyware and computer security. To sum it up, the claims have been exaggerated. I would recommend both of you to read it.

 

The idea that the DRM lost a lot of goodwill among gamers however is addressed, partially in my OP. It would be OEI's responsibility to consider whether the backlash (and financial costs) against a DRM like that would be worth the gains in game sales. I don't think so. But there must be an answer that most people would be happy with. At the same time, we shouldn't allow our emotions to get the better of us and declare all DRMs worthless or spyware. There is a lot for all of us to learn, and I believe that the discussion should be one where informed comments are given precedence.

 

The claims have been exaggerated, but they're still true. Also, the reason Starforce is still somewhat (I stress that) effective in Russia/Eastern Europe is the same reason Macs were "virus-free" for so long, when 99% of a market is somewhere else there's no reason for the big time hackers to focus on the niche (Witcher, Metro, and Crysis sure as **** didn't use Starforce). On top of that Starforce isn't hated nearly as much over there as it is here (although it is still rather hated)

 

Finally, I can tell you right now that using any DRM like SecuROM or Starforce would not in any way be worth the loss of good will. There are for more people who would refuse to buy a game that has those DRMs just on principle than there are people who would purchase it if no avenue for pirating it was available. All DRM does is hamper pirating (if that); it doesn't generate sales.

[Agelastos]

The answer, as always, is to abolish money and change to a hug-based economy. If that doesn't stop piracy, I don't know what will.

 

I am willing to pay no less than 50 digital hugs for this game!

That's a lot, considering I hate digital body contact.

[Hormalakh]

Actually I asked for an example of a game, not a DRM system that was not only bad for your comp (not as bad as some people say, but still not exactly good), but has been cracked.

 

But here, give us an example of your mythical DRM that is both effective and unobtrusive, because it doesn't exist (since if it did everyone would be using it).

 

The claims have been exaggerated, but they're still true. Also, the reason Starforce is still somewhat (I stress that) effective in Russia/Eastern Europe is the same reason Macs were "virus-free" for so long, when 99% of a market is somewhere else there's no reason for the big time hackers to focus on the niche (Witcher, Metro, and Crysis sure as **** didn't use Starforce). On top of that Starforce isn't hated nearly as much over there as it is here (although it is still rather hated)

 

Finally, I can tell you right now that using any DRM like SecuROM or Starforce would not in any way be worth the loss of good will. There are for more people who would refuse to buy a game that has those DRMs just on principle than there are people who would purchase it if no avenue for pirating it was available. All DRM does is hamper pirating (if that); it doesn't generate sales.

 

If I knew enough about encryption systems and DRMs I might come up with a good answer. Unforunately I am not an expert.

 

In regards to Russia, apparently -as someone else said here- one of the biggest markets who do pirate games, I wouldn't see it as being a problem to use Starforce there for the first few months, if it made economic sense. The loss of goodwill there is minimal and the gains from reduced piracy are more likely. That is of course a decision Obsidian would have to make. If they do so, I would support them.

 

Hampering piracy for even the first few days or weeks of sales does enough to see results. If it didn't, companies wouldn't continue to use DRM.

 

Please read the whole OP - many of your questions have been answered in either the articles I've linked to or my own post.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Valsuelm]

The article does a much better job than I could in addressing your concern about it being spyware and computer security. To sum it up, the claims have been exaggerated. I would recommend both of you to read it.

 

They were not exaggerated. While I never played an Ubisoft game I am familiar with that kind of DRM. Ubisoft and Starforce aren't the only folks who tried that type of thing. It's exactly that type of DRM that got me to look for my first pirated game to begin with somewhere close to a decade ago now. I know I'm not the only person who ever got so fed up with DRM on a game they legitimately bought that they went and sought out ways on the internet to remove it. Lo and behold, there waiting to be discovered was the 'pirate' community.

 

I read the article, though scanned the second half. I like Tweakguides, and have used his guides in the past. I learned quite a bit about nVidia forceware from him, he's got a bit to learn about piracy and copyright though. As decent an article as that one is (defintely one of the better ones I've seen), as Ink Blot already said, it totally overlooks or ignores a great many important aspects of the piracy and copyright debate. Especially some of the legal aspects of it. Piracy, copyright, intellectual property, the first sale doctrine, consumer rights, basic legal rights, and all the other things that tie into this is actually a pretty complicated subject to understand as there are so many things to consider. One could easily double the size of his article and still possibly not touch all the important aspects. It is definitely not a black and white issue, and not all piracy is bad for a company, some of it is actually good for a company.

 

This whole thread is really a non issue though. Obsidion has already stated there will be no DRM (not including the Steam version). Will there be pirates? Yes. Should we worry about them? No.

 

As someone else said. The best thing to do is get people you know interested in getting the game who aren't already interested or know about it. No doubt there are people who don't know about PE out there that would love to play whatever it becomes. I'm already working on a couple people I know, and I guarentee you I'll have sold at least 1-2 people I know on buying PE when it comes time for it's release.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Valsuelm

[alanschu]

Those people don't exist anymore.

 

I think this is just a convenient excuse to justify piracy.

 

It's easy to make an unfalsifiable claim.

 

If these people exist, then you are stating that these people not only wouldn't buy the game, but actually have no interest in acquiring the game at all (that is, their demand for the product would be 0). If the demand is non-zero, then there must be a value placed on the product. This is evidenced in that people do spend their time acquiring and installing said product (since time in and of itself is a resource).

 

There ARE people that pirate simply because it maximizes the amount of content they get for the investment they put in. Saying that they simply wouldn't buy any games if piracy stopped existing is as naive as hoping that piracy disappears.

Edited November 29, 2012 by alanschu

[Dream]

If I knew enough about encryption systems and DRMs I might come up with a good answer. Unforunately I am not an expert.

 

In regards to Russia, apparently -as someone else said here- one of the biggest markets who do pirate games, I wouldn't see it as being a problem to use Starforce there for the first few months, if it made economic sense. The loss of goodwill there is minimal and the gains from reduced piracy are more likely. That is of course a decision Obsidian would have to make. If they do so, I would support them.

 

Hampering piracy for even the first few days or weeks of sales does enough to see results. If it didn't, companies wouldn't continue to use DRM.

 

Please read the whole OP - many of your questions have been answered in either the articles I've linked to or my own post.

 

There is no answer because effective DRMs are by definition obtrusive. If Activision, EA, and Ubisoft can't keep their games from being pirated do you HONESTLY believe that Obsidian can?

 

The best way to avoid piracy is to make a great game that's easily accessible while at the same time fostering as much good will with the community as possible. Pirates are gamers just like the rest of us (hell, they're probably bigger gamers than most of us), and will be far more likely to buy **** if they like a company than if said company instead decided to implement the most stringent and draconian DRM possible (in which case they'll probably just move on and pirate something else instead).

 

Those people don't exist anymore.

 

I think this is just a convenient excuse to justify piracy.

 

It's easy to make an unfalsifiable claim.

 

If these people exist, then you are stating that these people not only wouldn't buy the game, but actually have no interest in acquiring the game at all (that is, their demand for the product would be 0). If the demand is non-zero, then there must be a value placed on the product. This is evidenced in that people do spend their time acquiring and installing said product (since time in and of itself is a resource).

 

There ARE people that pirate simply because it maximizes the amount of content they get for the investment they put in. Saying that they simply wouldn't buy any games if piracy stopped existing is as naive as hoping that piracy disappears.

 

Actually what I'm saying is anyone who would rather go through the massive headache of pirating a game rather than spending 20 seconds and 20 bucks to get it on Steam would more than likely not buy that game if it was available.Is it possible there are people like that? Sure, maybe. But at the same time it's also possible (and far more likely) that there are people who pirate a game they might be interested in and then proceed to buy said game if they like it (or tell their friends about it who then themselves buy it).

 

At the end of the day there's a reason Valve is making money hand over fist. They realized that piracy was only partly about money. When presented with a service like steam a very large portion of pirates choose instead to buy the game from there rather than pirate it because of how much easier and quicker it is. Time is, after all, money.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Dream

[Hormalakh]

The article does a much better job than I could in addressing your concern about it being spyware and computer security. To sum it up, the claims have been exaggerated. I would recommend both of you to read it.

 

They were not exaggerated. While I never played an Ubisoft game I am familiar with that kind of DRM. Ubisoft and Starforce aren't the only folks who tried that type of thing. It's exactly that type of DRM that got me to look for my first pirated game to begin with somewhere close to a decade ago now. I know I'm not the only person who ever got so fed up with DRM on a game they legitimately bought that they went and sought out ways on the internet to remove it. Lo and behold, there waiting to be discovered was the 'pirate' community.

 

I read the article, though scanned the second half. I like Tweakguides, and have used his guides in the past. I learned quite a bit about nVidia forceware from him, he's got a bit to learn about piracy and copyright though. As decent an article as that one is (defintely one of the better ones I've seen), as Ink Blot already said, it totally overlooks or ignores a great many important aspects of the piracy and copyright debate. Especially some of the legal aspects of it. Piracy, copyright, intellectual property, the first sale doctrine, consumer rights, basic legal rights, and all the other things that tie into this is actually a pretty complicated subject to understand as there are so many things to consider. One could easily double this size of his article still possibly not touch all the important aspects. It is definitely not a black and white issue, and not all piracy is bad for a company.

 

This whole thread is really a non issue though. Obsidion has already stated there will be no DRM (not including the Steam version). Will there be pirates? Yes. Should we worry about them? No.

 

As someone else said. The best thing to do is get people you know interested in getting the game who aren't already interested or know about it. No doubt there are people who don't know about PE out there that would love to play whatever it becomes.

 

I have you basing your evidence on nothing but your own word. I have him basing evidence on experts in the field. I am more likely to believe him until you bring expert evidence to the contrary. Read the article for the expert evidence. The second half is where he starts talking about DRM. Don't be lazy in your argument.

 

As for all the finer "points" about copyright infringement, they have nothing to do with my post. I am referring specifically to P:E and its piracy. Issues like the first sale doctrine, basic legal rights, and consumer rights really have nothing to do with this. I want backers to stand with me against pirating P:E. If you thought that P:E or Obsidian was violating the first sale doctrine, basic legal rights or consumer rights, why aren't you speaking out about it? I am finding it quite difficult to understand why people like you are against backers standing up for their respective rights to benefit from the sale of a game. As I have spelled out before, the improvement in sales of the game directly benefits those who backed this game and future buyers of the P:E game by allowing them a richer expansion pack experience.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

There is no answer because effective DRMs are by definition obtrusive. If Activision, EA, and Ubisoft can't keep their games from being pirated do you HONESTLY believe that Obsidian can?

 

The best way to avoid piracy is to make a great game that's easily accessible while at the same time fostering as much good will with the community as possible. Pirates are gamers just like the rest of us (hell, they're probably bigger gamers than most of us), and will be far more likely to buy **** if they like a company than if said company instead decided to implement the most stringent and draconian DRM possible (in which case they'll probably just move on and pirate something else instead).

 

Like I said, implementing DRM would be up to Obsidian. There have been other, more constructive ways that have been mentioned in this thread about how to reduce piracy. Those are also good efforts to take up. Just saying "well it's gonna happen, might as well let it" is not what we, as backers and gamers, should be doing.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Dream]

Like I said, implementing DRM would be up to Obsidian. There have been other, more constructive ways that have been mentioned in this thread about how to reduce piracy. Those are also good efforts to take up. Just saying "well it's gonna happen, might as well let it" is not what we, as backers and gamers, should be doing.

 

Why the **** not? The biggest companies in the business can't stop piracy and I guarantee the money they are sinking into trying to prevent it far eclipses the ENTIRE budget P:E raised on kickstarter. DRM not only fails to prevent piracy but it costs actual sales as well by turning people off.

[Hormalakh]

Actually what I'm saying is anyone who would rather go through the massive headache of pirating a game rather than spending 20 seconds and 20 bucks to get it on Steam would more than likely not buy that game if it was available.Is it possible there are people like that? Sure, maybe. But at the same time it's also possible (and far more likely) that there are people who pirate a game they might be interested in and then proceed to buy said game if they like it (or tell their friends about it who then themselves buy it).

 

At the end of the day there's a reason Valve is making money hand over fist. They realized that piracy was only partly about money. When presented with a service like steam a very large portion of pirates choose instead to buy the game from there rather than pirate it because of how much easier and quicker it is. Time is, after all, money.

 

Except Valve also suffered a huge blow to goodwill when it first came out with Steamworks. For some reason, it survived. Gamers still stuck with them. Even Valve uses DRM to some extent. So is Valve smart for using Steam? Or stupid for using DRM? I'm confused.

 

Just saying "well it's gonna happen, might as well let it" is not what we, as backers and gamers, should be doing.

Why the **** not? The biggest companies in the business can't stop piracy and I guarantee the money they are sinking into trying to prevent it far eclipses the ENTIRE budget P:E raised on kickstarter. DRM not only fails to prevent piracy but it costs actual sales as well by turning people off.

 

Really? You're asking this question? You think the pirates are your friends? You think they care about how you as a person, Dream, get to enjoy your game? If you are a backer or a gamer, do you think they care that you paid for the game to be made and are taking advantage of you?

 

You and I have had our share of arguments in other threads. If I was a pirate and was raining on your parade in other threads about how the game should be this way and it should be that way and you didn't like it, do you think I had a right as a non-buying gamer to come here on this forum and take up the developers' time to spout my ideas? Do you think it's fair that websites that will undoubtedly host torrents of P:E will make thousands of $ in ad revenue per month and won't be willing to share even a tiny portion of that money with the developers of this game? A game that you, as a buying customer, get to enjoy?

 

The biggest companies in the business might not be able to stop piracy, but each backer here can do their fair share by saying, "**** you, pirate. I bought my game, you didn't. Go get your own."

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

I'm signing off for the day. I'll see you guys around. Remember, say no to .

[Valsuelm]

I have you basing your evidence on nothing but your own word. I have him basing evidence on experts in the field. I am more likely to believe him until you bring expert evidence to the contrary. Read the article for the expert evidence. The second half is where he starts talking about DRM. Don't be lazy in your argument.

 

I'm unsure what you think I'm being lazy in my argument about. If it's not explaining the various aspects of the debate that I said exist, but are not addressed in that article, and already said would take a long time to explain, I'm not going to do that as I do not have that much free time. I was basically just trying to illustrate that the article did not address some pretty large aspects of the debate.

 

As for all the finer "points" about copyright infringement, they have nothing to do with my post. I am referring specifically to P:E and its piracy. Issues like the first sale doctrine, basic legal rights, and consumer rights really have nothing to do with this. I want backers to stand with me against pirating P:E. If you thought that P:E or Obsidian was violating the first sale doctrine, basic legal rights or consumer rights, why aren't you speaking out about it?

 

There's nothing to speak out about. It's a non issue, there's going to be no DRM. If there was only a DRM version of PE, I'd say something believe me and so would others. I'd also probably not have the faith I have in the developers at Obsidian if there was as well. (Obsidian is the last American game company I do have some faith in). If there was going to be something like Securom, I'd not have backed it, even though there's probably no other game I'd like to see be made more.

 

I am finding it quite difficult to understand why people like you are against backers standing up for their respective rights to benefit from the sale of a game. As I have spelled out before, the improvement in sales of the game directly benefits those who backed this game and future buyers of the P:E game by allowing them a richer expansion pack experience.

 

I'm not against you standing up for your percieved right to benefit from the sale of PE. I simply see it as a non issue. As I and others have stated and I'm pretty sure Obsidian realizes. Piracy is going to happen, whether you, me, they, or anyone else wants it to or not, DRM or this thread isn't going to stop it. For the most part you're likely preaching to the choir here. While there might be a few prospective pirates lurking the majority of the people here are likely backers or likely buyers. If you know someone who is going to pirate the game, by all means, encourage them not to. Encourage other people you know to buy it. Other than that, you're fretting over something that isn't worth fretting over. And you're trying to keep a very big subject narrow. You cannot take a stand against something as big as the piracy/copyright debate and not expect people to respond and bring aspects of the argument to your table that you might not have expected or want, especially if you're against piracy and for DRM. You also can't legitimately debate anything and poopoo analogy as you have.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Valsuelm

[teknoman2]

the main problem with drm of any kind, is that it can be cracked in a matter of days if not hours. so in the end the pirate will have his free copy and the developer-pubblisher will have spent time and money to implement the drm for nothing.

i say it's fine as it is. the freeloaders will get it for free drm or no, so at least if it is drm free they will be ashamed to claim piracy is their right, because they will have stolen from the comunity not a mega corp like EA or Activision

Edited November 29, 2012 by teknoman2

[Dream]

Except Valve also suffered a huge blow to goodwill when it first came out with Steamworks. For some reason, it survived. Gamers still stuck with them. Even Valve uses DRM to some extent. So is Valve smart for using Steam? Or stupid for using DRM? I'm confused.

 

Steam was designed as a digital delivery service, and its DRM is ancillary to it's true purpose of providing a platform through which gamers can easily purchase games. The only thing I don't like about steam is that if Valve suddenly goes kaput I'd lose my whole library (but the chances of that are pretty much non-existent).

 

Really? You're asking this question? You think the pirates are your friends? You think they care about how you as a person, Dream, get to enjoy your game? If you are a backer or a gamer, do you think they care that you paid for the game to be made and are taking advantage of you?

 

You and I have had our share of arguments in other threads. If I was a pirate and was raining on your parade in other threads about how the game should be this way and it should be that way and you didn't like it, do you think I had a right as a non-buying gamer to come here on this forum and take up the developers' time to spout my ideas? Do you think it's fair that websites that will undoubtedly host torrents of P:E will make thousands of $ in ad revenue per month and won't be willing to share even a tiny portion of that money with the developers of this game? A game that you, as a buying customer, get to enjoy?

 

The biggest companies in the business might not be able to stop piracy, but each backer here can do their fair share by saying, "**** you, pirate. I bought my game, you didn't. Go get your own."

 

I honestly wouldn't care because I'm not the type of person that discounts an opinion simply because of its source. It doesn't matter to me if the person is a pirate or one of the 10k backers; if they have a valid point then let them have their say. As for whether it's fair or not, who cares; **** happens and there is literally nothing anyone can do about it.

 

One thing I do know, however, is that we are far more likely to help Obsidian out by talking the game up and trying to sell it to both friends and strangers (including pirates) than by going around and saying "**** you, pirate!" That does nothing except antagonize people and exacerbate the issue (it would be rather unfortunate if the pirating community decides that "hey, those P:E fans are a bunch of ****, lets DDoS the **** out of Obsidians websites the day of launch").

[Valsuelm]

Do you think it's fair that websites that will undoubtedly host torrents of P:E will make thousands of $ in ad revenue per month and won't be willing to share even a tiny portion of that money with the developers of this game?

 

Most places that one would find a torrent file on do not have advertisements and are community funded. Also, websites are not the only places to find torrents.

 

There are a few high profile sites, such as ThePirateBay, that run ads, but at least in the case of Pirate Bay there's no great amount of money being made on the part of those that run it. Thousand of dallars a month certainly is not being made in profits. For the sake of argument, let's say that thousands were being made. How would you distribute that? There are thousands and thousands of torrents out there. Many of them 100% legal and legit torrents on sites that also have torrents that have pirated products. There would be no way to fairly distribute the profits being made even if one wanted to.

[Sedrefilos]

Most games ARE expensive. If someone has the money and wants to buy a game he/she will do that.

 

Most games give no demos before release and you cannot know for sure if the 50-60$ you're gonne pay for it will worth it.

 

Thing is, people who want to support a game will do it eventually, others will pirate, others will pirate and then buy the game too right from the start or when it's price goes low.

The sales of the games wouldn't be much higher even if piracy was not there at the first place.

 

The best thing a company can do is make games that good that most would want to buy an support.

 

For example, if Bioware releases Dragon Age 3 will I buy it? Not the moment it comes out for sure. I might download it and see if it worth its money. Will i buy it then? Don't know... I don't like Bioware anymore and I sure don't like EA at all.

 

When there are others like Obsidian here who do this job way better and they, at least that's what appeal's to me, they love it, why should I give 2 ****s about DA3 and Biowrae/EA at all. And that was an example. Same goes for others too.

 

Oh, and DRM sucks big time.

[AwesomeOcelot]

The arguments that have been dismissed still apply to this game, whether that's lost sales or non-target markets. People who would not buy the game do not effect anything. You can't just go "these don't apply anymore, I don't care for logic". We were promised DRM-free, we get DRM-free. DRM does absolutely nothing to stop piracy for single player games.

[Elerond]

I still have horror pictures about starforce (3 and 3.5 i think) as it caused that I could not play several games that I had bought as it's virtual drive worked badly in windows xp and it didn't and still not work in windows vista or newer windows. Additionally newer version of starforce virtual drive didn't support games using older version. And so I would say that copy protection that needs you to crack it that you can play games that you have bought legally is not way to go even if it is difficult to crack.