Meanwhile in Palestine

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/HUJfxTZaDWo

How about a no-fly zone over Palestine instead of Libya?

[Volourn]

How about a no rocket zone in both Palestine and Isreal? People say nothing about cosntant rocket atatcks but once Isreal 'fights back' it's on.

[obyknven]

Feel difference

Gaza:

http://youtu.be/9TvDpJugBcg

 

Israel:

http://youtu.be/v7ob8_dqGVM

[JFSOCC]

How about a no rocket zone in both Palestine and Israel? People say nothing about constant rocket attacks but once Israel 'fights back' it's on.

You got it reversed.

 

Israel, in order to "protect itself" has been going into Palestine with military patrols on a daily basis. They seek out Hamas leaders and fight them. They often kill civilians, far more than they hit Hamas. And while Hamas is internationally recognized (after much lobbying by Israel, and a terror attack in Munich) as a terrorist organization.

Palestinians might feel differently about this however. Hamas is not just the only thing that fights Israel, it's also the only somewhat organised police force they have, they only future for starving people cut of from the world, and the only organisation that, using tunnels, has access to the outside world.

Palestinians are desperate, they hate Israel, and that's quite logical too when Israel has blocked all access to the outside world best they can. They built a wall around Gaza (allegedly to stop the rocket attacks, and it has been fairly effective at that) which meant that business in Palestine (I'll be talking about Gaza, not so much the west bank) got cut off from tourism which they had before. (the border between Gaza and Israel is vague and disputed.)

Israel cut off electricity to Gaza city as well, ages ago, and electricity has been intermittent at best since.

Even by sea there is a blockade.

 

Now, you might think "why does Israel continuously send troops over its borders into another sovereign nation" or "Why does Israel's blockade take place in Palestinian waters.

Well there is the crux you see. Palestine isn't recognized as a nation. So it's sovereignty technically doesn't exist.

Now that's dumb, because the Palestinian people are clearly living in their own land, not ruled by any nation. But, despite their best efforts, the United Nations failed to pass a vote to recognize Palestine as a sovereign state, following a veto by the United States. (lobbied by Israel) And a warning that any following attempts will surely be vetoed.

 

Meanwhile, Israeli extremist Jewish orthodox families are settling on Palestinian lands, chasing away the rightful owners, often with threats of violence or outright violence. Palestinian farmers can literally do nothing but watch. These settlements have been declared illegal by pretty much the entire world. Israel "sees the problem and tries to do something about it" which means that while they provide funding to these very settlers (they do) they sometimes close down a settlement, or remove some of them. Cameras are present every time, seeing those sad people removed from the land (that they took)

Palestine has become smaller with every annexed piece of land, and continues to diminish in size.

 

Red Cross has complained in the past that Israel is blocking and delaying relief and food and medical help to Palestine.

 

If you're seeing a pattern here of Israel playing the victim you'd not be the only one to view it as such.

 

 

So, from the palestine's point of view:

Israel violates Palestinian sovereignity on a daily basis

Israel build a wall and a naval blockade that completely isolates the people of Palestine

Israel annexes, by proxy in the form of settlers the land that's Palestinians by right

Israel kills Palestinians in raids supposedly against terror, despite a high amount of "collateral damage" (children included)

Israel is slowly killing the people of Palestine as they don't have access to basic food and services. Hospitals have to do without some bare basics.

 

Living in Palestine is kind of ****. and Israel made it so.

So you find it strange that the people of Palestine hate the guts of Israelis?

 

We'll ignore the tangentially related stuff, such as the rampant racism in Israel, the fact despite claiming to be a democracy and not a theocracy, 11/12 people living in Israel can't vote because they're not Jewish (or part of a group of mostly Christian Palestinians that helped them in the 1967 war)

We'll ignore the apartheid within Israels own borders

We'll ignore the article where the head of Mossad states that Netanyahu and Barrak (not Obama) ignored suggestions which could have led to better relations at the very least, in favor of more aggressive methods advised against.

We'll ignore that Netanyahu has deliberately worked to sabotage the Oslo Accord.

We'll ignore the damage Israel does to historical sites that don't show that Israel was Jewish in the past. denying applications for restoration, or simply not maintaining historical sites because they're not Jewish.

We'll ignore the reports of atrocities such as the use of white phosphorous in urban environments in the 2010 war.

 

instead let's just go to a few days ago. Israel announces that they killed a Hamas leader.

They did so with a bomb and quite a bit of "collateral damage" IE many innocents killed.

This Particular Hamas leader was well liked.

That's when Hamas, the terrorist organisation, started lobbing rockets over the wall. They can't do much more than that. (but I certainly don't condone it)

And Israel, come election time, has got a nice project going on.

 

What's really happening is a slow genocide of Palestinians, cast as the bad guys, these people are so desperate that they fight with 600 dollar rockets against the best armed opponents in the region. They have no chance of winning. they know they have no chance of winning. But they simply can't stand by and do nothing.

it's utter desperation.

 

There is more going on of course, as there always is. Like neighbouring nations that have historically not helped Palestine out because it distracts nicely from their own problems. Also nations that do (Iran stands accused of doing so) quickly earn the enmity of the most hostile and powerful force in the region. Some have argued that Israel might simply be stuck in its ways and doesn't know another response than the stick anymore. And antagonising from the occasional terror attack from Palestine doesn't help them mellow down either. And while Palestinians might argue that these are desperate attacks, fact is innocents do get killed here.

 

But when you tally the damage, it is always, has always been, and always will be the Palestinians that suffer the most. Their infrastructure, gone, their people poor, starving. Their access to education, gone, their freedom to travel, non-existant. their chances to be heard, slim thanks the the very effective propaganda wars from Israel and Israel's powerful lobby abroad.

 

For a lasting peace to exist, I believe the following needs to happen.

1. Palestine needs to be recognised as a sovereign state. This will give them access to UN support, including the peace corps helping out, and the rights Palestine will have. (such as the right not to be invaded by a foreign power)

2. Hamas needs to be made into a professional army. this would end the cell-structure we know from terrorist and guerrilla organisations, and end the problems of one cell not following orders from up ahead. (such as not independently deciding to attack Israel with rockets, which an angry man on his own might decide to do faster than an organised army would. This would give accountability for actions as well, allowing the Palestinian leadership to control Hamas and prevent it from escalating the situation. Also, when this happens, it means that any action done by a member of Hamas can no longer be claimed to be independent, the work of lone fools.

3. The (majority opinion says illegal) Blockade needs to end. the only ones suffering are the Palestinian people as the rebels/terrorists have access to the tunnel smuggling networks anyway and these remain largely intact, despite heavy bombardments by the Israeli airforce. When the Blockade ends, the people of Palestine have some chance of self-determination again.

4. Israel needs to stop funding settlers, and these annexed settlements need to be removed.

5. Palestine needs to accept that they're not going back to the 1967 borders.

Edited November 21, 2012 by JFSOCC

[JFSOCC]

on a different note, an irondome missle costs 50.000 dollars, a qassam rocket costs about 600. Irondome intercepts 1 out every 3 rockets, according to their military.

[Gorth]

I predict the fighting will continue at least until after 22nd of January 2013.

 

[alanschu]

Bold prediction!

[Volourn]

"For a lasting peace to exist, I believe the following needs to happen.

1. Palestine needs to be recognised as a sovereign state. This will give them access to UN support, including the peace corps helping out, and the rights Palestine will have. (such as the right not to be invaded by a foreign power)

2. Hamas needs to be made into a professional army. this would end the cell-structure we know from terrorist and guerrilla organisations, and end the problems of one cell not following orders from up ahead. (such as not independently deciding to attack Israel with rockets, which an angry man on his own might decide to do faster than an organised army would. This would give accountability for actions as well, allowing the Palestinian leadership to control Hamas and prevent it from escalating the situation. Also, when this happens, it means that any action done by a member of Hamas can no longer be claimed to be independent, the work of lone fools.

3. The (majority opinion says illegal) Blockade needs to end. the only ones suffering are the Palestinian people as the rebels/terrorists have access to the tunnel smuggling networks anyway and these remain largely intact, despite heavy bombardments by the Israeli airforce. When the Blockade ends, the people of Palestine have some chance of self-determination again.

4. Israel needs to stop funding settlers, and these annexed settlements need to be removed.

5. Palestine needs to accept that they're not going back to the 1967 borders. "

 

You forgot a rather important one: Hamas/Palestine needs to accept Isreal's right to exist. Otherwise, these are all pretty reasonable since in real negotiations both sides need to 'give up' certain things.

 

Still, the fact you try to blame Isreal for the violence is silly. They're at fault but so is Palestine. hiding behind Hamas is silly ana cop out. Hamas is the legally chosen gov't of Palestine currently.

 

 

"If you're seeing a pattern here of Israel playing the victim you'd not be the only one to view it as such."

 

I never claimed Isreal was simply a 'victim'. But,t hyat's what palestinian supporters try to make Palestine out to be. It isn't. It's as guilty as Isreal. the only difference is the level of power involved.

 

"And while Hamas is internationally recognized (after much lobbying by Israel, and a terror attack in Munich) as a terrorist organization."

 

Sadly, that's what Hamas is. Look at their manifesto. Look at what they purpsoefully target - civilian buses. There is no militaristic reason to do so.

 

 

"instead let's just go to a few days ago. Israel announces that they killed a Hamas leader."

 

ANd? A Hamas leader who runs udner the banner of an organziation/gov't whose motto is that isreal doesn't deserve to exist. Doesn't sound like that someone Isreal should feel sorry about killing.

 

"They did so with a bomb and quite a bit of "collateral damage" IE many innocents killed."

 

Agreed. It is horrible. But, you don't seem to mind when Isreali civilians are killed. Nor do you seem to care when Hams murders Palestinians. Why is that?

 

"This Particular Hamas leader was well liked."

 

And? Obviously not by those he wish to destroy.

 

 

"That's when Hamas, the terrorist organisation, started lobbing rockets over the wall. They can't do much more than that. (but I certainly don't condone it)

And Israel, come election time, has got a nice project going on."

 

Wait a sec. You think them lobbing rockets is new or that it *just* started again? Hams lobs rockets pretty much constantly. This isn't new at all. It surely isn't a reaction to anything new. It's a matter of course. But, again, nobody talks about it b/c you know big deal it's only a few rockets. L0L

 

 

"But when you tally the damage, it is always, has always been, and always will be the Palestinians that suffer the most."

 

This is true, and is definitely sad. But, it doesn't make them any betetr than isreal or more of the victims. Just because Palestine is the weaker side doesn't make them 'better' in the moral sense. Both are in the wrong. Period.

[AGX-17]

One of the most hilarious things about this is that Israelis pretty much hate Obama for his refusal to follow the standard "100% behind Israel" line and opposing settlements, but it was the Obama administration that gave them their precious Iron Dome missile defense system.

 

How about a no rocket zone in both Palestine and Isreal? People say nothing about cosntant rocket atatcks but once Isreal 'fights back' it's on.

 

Because most Hamas rockets fail to do any harm. The people of Gaza are impotent, hopeless and desperate because of Israeli policy, that's what turned them toward voting for Hamas. Israel has a hard time looking like the "good guys" when the advise Gazan civlians to leave when Israel and Egypt spent the last decade walling them in. Last I heard Hamas had killed 3 Israelis and injured a few dozen, Israel has killed over 100 Palestinians and wounded hundreds. Multiple western news sources have also reported that Israel seems to be targeting buildings and areas of Gaza where news media/journalists are based, which is even more troubling.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that Israel holds the position of dominance and power, not innocent victim. It's within their power to end the violence but Israel's increasingly right-wing government is determined to expand illegal settlements in Palestinian territories until there are no Palestinian territories left.

 

And as many political commentators both in Israel and abroad have said, Israel can't simultaneously be a free, open democracy and a Jewish theocratic state where Palestinians/Arabs are second-class citizens. Eventually they're going to have to choose one or the other, and with the growing numbers of ultra-orthodox right wingers, there's going to be more trouble unless Israel's more moderate and liberal citizens stand up to the conservatives who dominate their policies.

 

The most brutal irony is that the Israelis claim they have a religious right to this land by virtue of their religious scriptures, something which would not be tolerated by the international community if it were any other group.

 

Native Americans can say they have a religious right to have their homelands back and non-native Americans will just laugh in their faces or say "that's all in the past, you should be grateful for US tax aid that doesn't reduce your massive rates of poverty, alcoholism and domestic violence!" Nobody's going to give the Nez Perce tribe (or any other Native American tribe/group/nation,) a bunch of guns, tanks and military training to forcibly take their original homeland in northeastern Oregon back from the white men who now occupy it.

Edited November 21, 2012 by AGX-17

[JFSOCC]

"For a lasting peace to exist, I believe the following needs to happen.

1. Palestine needs to be recognised as a sovereign state. This will give them access to UN support, including the peace corps helping out, and the rights Palestine will have. (such as the right not to be invaded by a foreign power)

2. Hamas needs to be made into a professional army. this would end the cell-structure we know from terrorist and guerrilla organisations, and end the problems of one cell not following orders from up ahead. (such as not independently deciding to attack Israel with rockets, which an angry man on his own might decide to do faster than an organised army would. This would give accountability for actions as well, allowing the Palestinian leadership to control Hamas and prevent it from escalating the situation. Also, when this happens, it means that any action done by a member of Hamas can no longer be claimed to be independent, the work of lone fools.

3. The (majority opinion says illegal) Blockade needs to end. the only ones suffering are the Palestinian people as the rebels/terrorists have access to the tunnel smuggling networks anyway and these remain largely intact, despite heavy bombardments by the Israeli airforce. When the Blockade ends, the people of Palestine have some chance of self-determination again.

4. Israel needs to stop funding settlers, and these annexed settlements need to be removed.

5. Palestine needs to accept that they're not going back to the 1967 borders. "

 

You forgot a rather important one: Hamas/Palestine needs to accept Isreal's right to exist. Otherwise, these are all pretty reasonable since in real negotiations both sides need to 'give up' certain things.

 

Still, the fact you try to blame Isreal for the violence is silly. They're at fault but so is Palestine. hiding behind Hamas is silly ana cop out. Hamas is the legally chosen gov't of Palestine currently.

 

 

"If you're seeing a pattern here of Israel playing the victim you'd not be the only one to view it as such."

 

I never claimed Isreal was simply a 'victim'. But,t hyat's what palestinian supporters try to make Palestine out to be. It isn't. It's as guilty as Isreal. the only difference is the level of power involved.

 

"And while Hamas is internationally recognized (after much lobbying by Israel, and a terror attack in Munich) as a terrorist organization."

 

Sadly, that's what Hamas is. Look at their manifesto. Look at what they purpsoefully target - civilian buses. There is no militaristic reason to do so.

 

 

"instead let's just go to a few days ago. Israel announces that they killed a Hamas leader."

 

ANd? A Hamas leader who runs udner the banner of an organziation/gov't whose motto is that isreal doesn't deserve to exist. Doesn't sound like that someone Isreal should feel sorry about killing.

 

"They did so with a bomb and quite a bit of "collateral damage" IE many innocents killed."

 

Agreed. It is horrible. But, you don't seem to mind when Isreali civilians are killed. Nor do you seem to care when Hams murders Palestinians. Why is that?

 

"This Particular Hamas leader was well liked."

 

And? Obviously not by those he wish to destroy.

 

 

"That's when Hamas, the terrorist organisation, started lobbing rockets over the wall. They can't do much more than that. (but I certainly don't condone it)

And Israel, come election time, has got a nice project going on."

 

Wait a sec. You think them lobbing rockets is new or that it *just* started again? Hams lobs rockets pretty much constantly. This isn't new at all. It surely isn't a reaction to anything new. It's a matter of course. But, again, nobody talks about it b/c you know big deal it's only a few rockets. L0L

 

 

"But when you tally the damage, it is always, has always been, and always will be the Palestinians that suffer the most."

 

This is true, and is definitely sad. But, it doesn't make them any betetr than isreal or more of the victims. Just because Palestine is the weaker side doesn't make them 'better' in the moral sense. Both are in the wrong. Period.

That's a lot to respond to and it's late, so I'm promising a better response tomorrow. but a few things I would like to address before you get the wrong idea.

1. I think that the right to israels existence kind of fits in my point 5, respecting the borders.

2. You are correct, both sides are guilty, I never believed otherwise. I did however point out the difference in relative power.

3. While you mention that palestine hasn't let up in firing rockets over the past time, the amount obviously increased. As much rockets as they send, Israel has the same or more small military teams entering palestine, again much more deadly.

 

More tomorrow, good night.

[Volourn]

"It's within their power to end the violence"

 

No. It takes both sides to end violence. Isreal can stop attacking but that won't neccessarily stop the other side and vice versa. It's a two side war so it takes two sides to end it.

 

 

"1. I think that the right to israels existence kind of fits in my point 5, respecting the borders.

2. You are correct, both sides are guilty, I never believed otherwise. I did however point out the difference in relative power.

3. While you mention that palestine hasn't let up in firing rockets over the past time, the amount obviously increased. As much rockets as they send, Israel has the same or more small military teams entering palestine, again much more deadly."

 

[JFSOCC]

Well there's a ceasefire now, let's hope it lasts.

[obyknven]

Russian city TVER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc0_lFmBSDs&t=2m8s

 

"Palestine"

http://youtu.be/TnNX_LCPdtU

 

[Malcador]

Heh, right.

[melkathi]

Last I heard Hamas had killed 3 Israelis and injured a few dozen, Israel has killed over 100 Palestinians and wounded hundreds. Multiple western news sources have also reported that Israel seems to be targeting buildings and areas of Gaza where news media/journalists are based, which is even more troubling.

 

 

According to Associated Press this morning:

8 days of conflict.

4 Israelis dead (of these 2 were confirmed as military) and 12 wounded.

161 Palestinians dead.

 

 

Meh, I work in a Press Office at the moment...

[Felithvian]

Ahh, I see these people as true Christians once they abandon Satan's "free will", unlike catholics which will be consumed by the terrible judge if they do not escape from the seven hills.

[JFSOCC]

Ahh, I see these people as true Christians once they abandon Satan's "free will", unlike catholics which will be consumed by the terrible judge if they do not escape from the seven hills.

What the hell does that even mean?

[AGX-17]

"It's within their power to end the violence"

 

No. It takes both sides to end violence. Isreal can stop attacking but that won't neccessarily stop the other side and vice versa. It's a two side war so it takes two sides to end it.

 

 

"1. I think that the right to israels existence kind of fits in my point 5, respecting the borders.

2. You are correct, both sides are guilty, I never believed otherwise. I did however point out the difference in relative power.

3. While you mention that palestine hasn't let up in firing rockets over the past time, the amount obviously increased. As much rockets as they send, Israel has the same or more small military teams entering palestine, again much more deadly."

 

 

It was British then Israeli policy that drove the Palestinians to violence in the first place. They were pushing and even fighting for free statehood while under British rule (nobody ever taught Arabs the ways of democracy,) in the chaos after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, then the British started letting Jewish colonists in. Then the British and Americans sent bigger waves of Jewish colonists in with tanks and guns, and those Jewish colonists just barged into Palestinian homes and forced families out at gunpoint and stole their homes and land while justifying it on religious grounds. And that's still what they're doing today with their settlement activity, which has been deemed illegal by every single nation on Earth but Israel.

 

If the Jews didn't want to lose their land they should have kept their heads down and not pissed off the Roman mother****ing Empire 2000 years ago (this was the ROMAN MOTHER****ING EMPIRE. Did you HEAR about what they did to Carthage just for being in their way?) The story of the Jewish loss of their homeland is one of religious extremist factions (the Zealots for which all others have been named,) exacerbating what could have been a peacefully-solved conflict. Sound familiar?

 

The purpose of the Jewish rebellion was just, and Vespasian would have given them some of the concessions they wanted if not for the Zealot faction mucking it up for all Jews.

 

Israel refuses to enter peace talks or entertain the idea of a Palestinian state in good faith, they never intend to make any concessions. They know that there are uncontrollable muslim zealots running around in the Palestinian territories and they know that's the perfect excuse to never make peace, because they can blame the actions of one lone extremist or small cell of them on all Palestinians and cut off talks/expand settlements.

 

Israel's policy toward the Palestinians is all stick. There's never been any carrot. They don't reward Palestinians for concessions or cease-fires, they continue the vindictive punishments. They're still building walls around the West Bank, still building colonies and stealing land, even though Fatah has given them what they wanted. They're still evicting Muslims from their own legally-owned homes in Jerusalem and giving their homes to Jewish families for the sole purpose of removing all Muslims from Jerusalem. The Palestinians who were born and raised and died for generations in that land for the intervening years were not Romans, they weren't responsible for the loss of the Jewish homeland, yet they're being punished as though they were Vespasian and Titus themselves.

Edited November 22, 2012 by AGX-17

[pmp10]

If the Jews didn't want to lose their land they should have kept their heads down and not pissed off the Roman mother****ing Empire 2000 years ago (this was the ROMAN MOTHER****ING EMPIRE. Did you HEAR about what they did to Carthage just for being in their way?) The story of the Jewish loss of their homeland is one of religious extremist factions (the Zealots for which all others have been named,) exacerbating what could have been a peacefully-solved conflict. Sound familiar?

 

The purpose of the Jewish rebellion was just, and Vespasian would have given them some of the concessions they wanted if not for the Zealot faction mucking it up for all Jews.

That's simplifying things quite a bit.

There was never a chance to reconcile Jewish monotheism with Roman imperial cult and the issues between them were bound to explode sooner or later.

And as you pointed it out yourself with the example of Cartage - you could never have 'peace' with imperial Rome.

[Meshugger]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

[JFSOCC]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

It's desperation. The world only looks when there is clear conflict

[Maedhros]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

 

AGX-17 answered this some posts above. The Israeli have proven time and time again that diplomacy with them is useless. In "peace time" the Isreali simply spend their time systematically stealing Palestinian homes and land.

[Volourn]

Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people. They have a nasty habit of murdering Palestians. Yet people keep this falsehood on how all Hamas wants is a Free Palestine. What they want is power. And, they will murder to get it - Jew or Muslim it don't matter. Looking at the casualty rate.. I wouldn't doubt that Hamas murdered more Palestinians then they killed Isrealis. Pathetic.

 

."The Israeli have proven time and time again that diplomacy with them is useless. In "peace time" the Isreali simply spend their time systematically stealing Palestinian homes and land. "

 

This is why I can tell you are a not so secret anti Isreali bigot. isreal is guilty of lots of bad things but you try to whitewash Palestine's part in the thing and amke thee excuse that they are 'weaker'. Beingw eak ism not an excuse for poor behaviour. This works both ways. Diplomacy has proven not to work with Hamas specifically or Palestine in general. And, the only reason Hamas agrees with 'peace talks' is because they use that time to build up their rocket supply adn recruit new people. And, when i say recruit, I don't just mean,"Hi you wanna join against the enemy!?!". It's mroe like 'Join us or die and your family will die!" L0LZ

Edited November 22, 2012 by Volourn

[Maedhros]

This is why I can tell you are a not so secret anti Isreali bigot. isreal is guilty of lots of bad things but you try to whitewash Palestine's part in the thing and amke thee excuse that they are 'weaker'. Beingw eak ism not an excuse for poor behaviour. This works both ways. Diplomacy has proven not to work with Hamas specifically or Palestine in general. And, the only reason Hamas agrees with 'peace talks' is because they use that time to build up their rocket supply adn recruit new people. And, when i say recruit, I don't just mean,"Hi you wanna join against the enemy!?!". It's mroe like 'Join us or die and your family will die!" L0LZ

 

What are you talking about? I simply replied to a post where someone was wondering why Palestine didn't try to "give peace a chance", and gave one reason (of many) why it's not so simple. I completely detest both Hamas and its supporters, so stop putting words in my mouth you silly goose.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY&feature

Edited November 22, 2012 by Thingolfin

[Malcador]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

 

Well, they win out in a way when the IDF decides to sledgehammer Gaza. Civilians die, survivors get angry, rally to their banner as they are fighting Israel even if they're firing low quality munitions at them.