charismatic villains

[Durinax]

And speaking of JRPG villains. I can't recall a singel one I would call "good".

Pretty emo bishonens do not make compellign villains for me. I kinda have trouble taking them seriously when they look like they spend most their day at a stylist and haird dresser, and when their plans and logic is so redicolously insane.

 

EXAMPLE:

"I'm gonna destroy the world because living is painfull. People die! So I will kill them all so they will never have to suffer the pain of dying!"

Where is this example from?

that is kinda like the Arcanum bad guy, whom *SPOILERS* wants to destroy all life because as a necromancer he talked to the dead and saw the eternal suffering they endured, so he wanted to end it once and for all type deal.

[Jojobobo]

I don't think all villians should be charismatic. Some people are just stupid and mean, even those in leadership roles, and have obtained power by fear and bullying their way to the top. A couple of charismatic villianous characters are fine, but not every bad character should be so charming that I think if I was playing an evil character I'd give them a high five right about now. A degenerate brutal pyscho can be at times more evocative than a debonair devil's advocate style smooth talker.

[jezz555]

I mean, charismatic and effeminate are two different things. I think because you brought up Jrpg's most people assumed you were talking about some sort of effete fabio-haired...well we all know the archetype. But I don't think there's anything wrong with a charismatic villain in the vein of say hitler or rasputin, who is able to draw people to him and turn them against you, I think that can at times, make for a better villain than just a giant monster guy. But that's not to say I'm in favor of some kind of anime-villain, the last thing I want this game to turn into is another final fantasy. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with JRG's but, this is not one, and lets keep it thaat way.

[Osvir]

*shudders* if he only knew

 

And this guy:

This guy is one of the best uber-nemesis villains that I can recall. He is cool in his tuxedo, and just so overwhelming. Condescending to the Hero every time they meet and just so playful. This guy is Heath Ledger Joker material, without the madness. Scheming, plotting, sociopathic I'm sure. The Hero dashes and tries to attack him at some points, but Haitani simply appears elsewhere and pretends like nothing ever happened. He is in a sense omnipotent, and extremely well-mannered at the same time. The best part is that he's not even the Leader of the Evol faction (actual name), but an uprising and rebellious villain with so much guile, charisma and completely unknown strengths or weaknesses. A villain that even suggests where the Hero should go, patronizing him, taunting him, blackmailing him. He treats the Hero like a "tool" a means to "personal success", a chess piece, and the Hero has little choice but to do as Haitani says, because time is running out.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Osvir

[Azure79]

I haven't played that many jrpgs apart from the final fantasy series and other square games, but nowadays I do have a hard time taking them seriously just because of the art design. I guess in the SNES era, the graphics were abstract enough that I could imagine what each character looked like in my head to my own liking, but nowadays I can't seem to get past that, much to my dismay as I'm sure I'm missing some good games and good villains.

[Mandragore]

One feature I like in jrpgs what you rarely see in crpgs. Is sexy, charismatic powerful villains. With love or hate personalities that the player encounters throughout the game. If they are well written and done they alone can encourage the player to play throughout the entire game. Alpha protocol had these characters like that cougar Russian chick. But it was kept very brief and you didn't really get to know her.

 

No offense, but most of us don't want to see some whiny, brooding, porcelain skinned girlyman (or woman) as the villain. I'd like to see a competent villain, but he or she doesn't necessarily need to be charismatic; plenty of leaders gain the obedience of their underlings through fear or coercion.

[Orogun01]

Comparing villains personalities in their most generalized description its like comparing Ice cream flavors, its highly subjective to the taste. Personally I like Rocky Road because of the walnuts and quite frankly I can't no longer abide the taste of chocolate ice cream by itself.

So I'd like a villain that has some "walnuts" and isn't just a charismatic one or a mastermind or a thug. It the little details that make each character unique and makes them grow out of their archetype and role in the story.If I can't point to an event as proof that they are good villains I usually consider them either a failure or not a villain at all.

[jezz555]

Comparing villains personalities in their most generalized description its like comparing Ice cream flavors, its highly subjective to the taste. Personally I like Rocky Road because of the walnuts and quite frankly I can't no longer abide the taste of chocolate ice cream by itself.

So I'd like a villain that has some "walnuts" and isn't just a charismatic one or a mastermind or a thug. It the little details that make each character unique and makes them grow out of their archetype and role in the story.If I can't point to an event as proof that they are good villains I usually consider them either a failure or not a villain at all.

 

Somewhere in that whole ice-cream analogy I think I lost your point...what do the walnuts represent?

[Osvir]

Comparing villains personalities in their most generalized description its like comparing Ice cream flavors, its highly subjective to the taste. Personally I like Rocky Road because of the walnuts and quite frankly I can't no longer abide the taste of chocolate ice cream by itself.

So I'd like a villain that has some "walnuts" and isn't just a charismatic one or a mastermind or a thug. It the little details that make each character unique and makes them grow out of their archetype and role in the story.If I can't point to an event as proof that they are good villains I usually consider them either a failure or not a villain at all.

 

Somewhere in that whole ice-cream analogy I think I lost your point...what do the walnuts represent?

 

I think you are over thinking the metaphor, simplified: I like chocolate more than vanilla, whilst you might like vanilla more than chocolate. In other words, you enjoy one type of archetype of villains more than another perhaps, whilst I think the "another one" is cooler than the one you enjoy.

 

But it all comes down to great writing I believe, where we stand together I believe. A great written villain is a great written villain, regardless of his "type" of villainy.

[TrashMan]

*shudders* if he only knew

 

 

Griffith?

The emo pertty boy with a serious man-crush?

 

He's a bastard for sure, but he's not really greade A villain material.

 

 

 

 

 

And this guy:

 

Have to confess, I dont' know this one. Which anime is he from?

[TrashMan]

Comparing villains personalities in their most generalized description its like comparing Ice cream flavors, its highly subjective to the taste. Personally I like Rocky Road because of the walnuts and quite frankly I can't no longer abide the taste of chocolate ice cream by itself.

So I'd like a villain that has some "walnuts" and isn't just a charismatic one or a mastermind or a thug. It the little details that make each character unique and makes them grow out of their archetype and role in the story.If I can't point to an event as proof that they are good villains I usually consider them either a failure or not a villain at all.

 

Somewhere in that whole ice-cream analogy I think I lost your point...what do the walnuts represent?

 

Either he wants his villainsto be nuts (crazy) of he wants them to have nuts (be male)

[Osvir]

@TrashMan: The anime/manga is Zetman, his name is Haitani. I'd say that the manga is so much better and the anime ends very abruptly (manga is still going on). Zetman Anime felt like Full Metal Alchemist Anime (the first one, with the weird ending, not ":Brotherhood" which follows the manga honestly, intellectually and genuinely).

 

About Griffith: Oh well yes not a villain per say but that's what makes him interesting and everything leading up to the point, I want to leave spoilers out but yeah lots of stuff happens past "The Eclipse"... the anime ends where the manga, and Guts vengeance, pretty much begins.

 

EDIT: I had to force the Berserk anime on my room mate, he was resistent about it and stuck his tongue out saying "It sucks!" after one episode. After the second episode he was interested and finally when he had finished it he was yelling "BERSERK IS THE BEST ANIME IN THE WORLD!!!" haha. Berserk has such a great story.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Osvir

[TrashMan]

Berserk is certanly interesting... But also overhyped.

 

Hm.. will have to look into Zetman.

 

 

Speaking of villains. Do we really need to have one? I've seen interesting takes on it.

 

For example, Planetes doesn't really have a villain. Evne tough it has terrorists and douchbag superpowers and cooprporations.

 

Vision of Escaflowne has Donkirk.. who pretty much has the best possible intentions (happines for everyone) and a way to achieve it (a magical zone that ecompases the whole planet and fulfills everyones wishes). Alas, he failed to take into account conflicting wishes.

 

Macross has Zentradi. Who aren't really evil. Hell, they start defecting and joining our side.

 

Hellsing....ok, bad example.

Edited November 12, 2012 by TrashMan

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Hellsing....ok, bad example.

Why? At least Paladin Alexander Anderson is cerainly one of the more memorable villains.

Watching Anderson and Alucard chopping up a whole train while fighting each other kind of never gets old. What a badass!

[jezz555]

This isn't an anime forum guys...

[Orogun01]

This isn't an anime forum guys...

Are you expecting a bunch of manga reader teens to actually post villains that aren't anime related?

 

Fine, here comes the JRPG brigade:

 

I'll start; Keftka, Sepiroth, Seymour Guado, blah blah blah.

[Mandragore]

There are others, but this is one of the reasons I avoid Jrpgs like the plague. The storytelling and characters are terrible. They usually try to make up for a villain's unitimidating appearance and lack of depth by giving them a surplus of flashy superpowers.

 

Tywin Lannister is a scary MoFo regardless of what resources he has at his disposal. Sepiroth on the other hand, shorn of his powers, wouldn't be very intimidating to the game's human players, much less its protagonists. Given that this is (or seems to be so far) a low-fantasy, western style game in the classic tradition, lets look somewhere other than anime for inspiration.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Mandragore

[Osvir]

There are others, but this is one of the reasons I avoid Jrpgs like the plague. The storytelling and characters are terrible. They usually try to make up for a villain's unintimidating appearance and lack of depth by giving them a surplus of flashy superpowers.

 

Which jrpgs have you played? My own few that I can think of that are, imo, really great:

 

* Lufia 2 (SNES)

* Grandia (PSX)

* Final Fantasy 1-9 (PSX)

* Disgaea (there exists an anime that does the story more justice than the game ever can do) (PS2)

* Star Ocean (Super Nintendo, later re-mastered for PSP)

* Soul Nomad and the World-Eaters (PS2)

* The World Ends With You (DS)

* Chrono Trigger (SNES)

 

Heck isn't largely the SNES Era mostly JRPG's?

[Orogun01]

 

Heck isn't largely the SNES Era mostly JRPG's?

Yep, but games were simpler back then and storytelling was a plus and not a given.

Now even the most inane, mindless game requires a plot or a story mode.

[Mandragore]

There are others, but this is one of the reasons I avoid Jrpgs like the plague. The storytelling and characters are terrible. They usually try to make up for a villain's unintimidating appearance and lack of depth by giving them a surplus of flashy superpowers.

 

Which jrpgs have you played? My own few that I can think of that are, imo, really great:

 

* Lufia 2 (SNES)

* Grandia (PSX)

* Final Fantasy 1-9 (PSX)

* Disgaea (there exists an anime that does the story more justice than the game ever can do) (PS2)

* Star Ocean (Super Nintendo, later re-mastered for PSP)

* Soul Nomad and the World-Eaters (PS2)

* The World Ends With You (DS)

* Chrono Trigger (SNES)

 

Heck isn't largely the SNES Era mostly JRPG's?

 

Of your list I've played Disgaea and most of the Final Fantasy games; by in large those were on recommendations from friends, since, like I said, I don't really enjoy them. The Final Fantasy series in particular (impending weaboo firestorm) has some truly ridiculous villains.

 

The only Jrpgs I've ever really liked are things that aren't really rpgs at all, like Dark Souls/Demon's Souls, Ico, Shadow of the colossus etc, all of which manage to be epic without being flashy or over-stylized, not to mention having excellent villains. They're also light on dialogue; broken engrish grammar is a huge verisimilitude killer for me.

 

In case my first post wasn't clear, I don't like flashy bipolar metrosexuals as villains. I want an antagonist who looks and acts like he is capable of world conquest, rather than one who looks and acts like he could be the frontman for an 80s hair metal band.

 

P.S. I'm not trying to bash on you or your preferences, but the moment PE starts looking like a Jrpg my interest and desire to buy it basically vanishes.

[exodiark]

Being condescending/arrogant/jerk is not "charismatic." You're mixing "flashy" with "charismatic"

 

Charisma, according to Oxford:

compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others

 

A good charismatic villain should actually make you consider to join their cause, directly or indirectly. A charismatic person doesn't have to be a smooth talker, a pragmatic brute can be charismatic too.

 

I find this kind of villain rare in JRPGs. In fact, most of them try as hard as they can to annoy the player in every move they make.

That's just far from charismatic, I think.

 

However, a good villain doesn't have to be charismatic. Charismatic villain is not always a good villain, some of them are very campy.

 

JRPGs I played:

FF1-13, Tactics

Tales of Eternia, Legendia, Abyss, Innocence

Star Ocean 1, 2, 3

Shadow Hearts 1, 2, 3.

Xenogears

Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross

Grandia 3

Disgaea

The World Ends With You

Kingdom Hearts 1, 2, 365/2 days, Coded, BBS, DDD

 

JRPGs with charismatic villains:

Shadow Hearts 2, FF Tactics, FF12, Tales of the Abyss.

Edited November 13, 2012 by exodiark

[TrashMan]

Example of a good, charismatic "villain" - The Illusive Man... Al least untill they utterly and completely ruined him.

[exodiark]

Agreed, TIM is a wasted material ):

Edited November 13, 2012 by exodiark

[Orogun01]

Example of a good, charismatic "villain" - The Illusive Man... Al least untill they utterly and completely ruined him.

Ehh, I can never get behind those "at all costs" kind of guys. It always seemed to me that the situation was not dire enough to warrant the excessive force of Cerberus, which kind of made them look psychotic and by extension, TIM.

[Jarmo]

What I really hate is when the developers clearly have decided the enemy is clever and charismatic and cool and awesome.

 

You just know million miles before that whatevery you're doing is not going to catch him by surprise or work,

you'll just get some stupid ass cutscene where he'll give this awesome speech and then walk away.

Without you getting any chance whatsoever to stop him and then you're dropped down the hatch or something.

 

Repeat a couple a times. In the end battle he's shooting awesome death rays and has billion hit points and invulnerability.

You're fighting as a team, he's alone and you still have to chug down bucketfuls of potions and cheats before winning.

 

Because he's so cool and charismatic and the devs like him much better than you and your stupid weak character.