Respec?

[Tamerlane]

Not a fan of respec. Don't care if it shows up in the game in some form, which it probably will, because I can ignore it.

 

****, that was easy.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Instead of "respec", how about any new party member starts out at level 1, and the player gets to level them up to the current level? This way, the player gets to build the party how they wish, without some metagame feature.

[Pipyui]

I can kinda see Rubicon's point in "if you don't like it, don't use it," however, so much as he tries to justify it, it is a rather silly argument to keep pushing without context. The trouble with this is that there is a very slippery slope between what you can let players get away with as a "feature," and what undermines the purpose of the game. Not enough money to buy that new battleaxe? That's fine, there's an optional discount if you don't have the funds. Don't like it? Don't use it. Ugh, that guy was almost dead; I just needed one more strike! I don't want to restart the whole battle, so I'll just redo that last attack roll. Don't like this feature? Don't use it.

While I'm not trying to strawman Rubicon's argument like this, I am saying that this is a serious flaw with it.

 

Please Rubicon, I don't intend to be mean, but if you're not a troll, try to respond to the concerns others have presented with a little more than "It's a feature! If you don't like it, don't use it."

 

 

Anyway, on a completely different note, I agree with a few above that making respecing too trivial of a task demeans the value of creating a character and playing the game with that character in the first place. Spec-ing properly though, I feel as Sawyer does, shouldn't be a barrier to playing. Idealy, as someone above has also noted, respecing shouldn't be necessary, as character development should be very modular (hard to really screw up). However, since achieving such is a little far-fetched, I think respecing should be available at a hefty price, like a level drop or something. If a new player screws up their characters so much as to make continuing the campaign impossible, I don't think it would be fun for him/her to have to restart the whole thing without so much as a sandbox (respecing) to help facilitate the learning of game mechanics.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Pipyui

[Rubicon]

I can kinda see Rubicon's point in "if you don't like it, don't use it," however, so much as he tries to justify it, it is a rather silly argument to keep pushing without context. The trouble with this is that there is a very slippery slope between what you can let players get away with as a "feature," and what undermines the purpose of the game. Not enough money to buy that new battleaxe? That's fine, there's an optional discount if you don't have the funds. Don't like it? Don't use it. Ugh, that guy was almost dead; I just needed one more strike! I don't want to restart the whole battle, so I'll just redo that last attack roll. Don't like this feature? Don't use it.

While I'm not trying to strawman Rubicon's argument like this, I am saying that this is a serious flaw with it.

 

Please Rubicon, I don't intend to be mean, but if you're not a troll, try to respond to the concerns others have presented with a little more than "It's a feature! If you don't like it, don't use it."

 

 

Anyway, on a completely different note, I agree with a few above that making respecing too trivial of a task demeans the value of creating a character and playing the game with that character in the first place. Spec-ing properly though, I feel as Sawyer does, shouldn't be a barrier to playing. Idealy, as someone above has also noted, respecing shouldn't be necessary, as character development should be very modular (hard to really screw up). However, since achieving such is a little far-fetched, I think respecing should be available at a hefty price, like a level drop or something. If a new player screws up their characters so much as to make continuing the campaign impossible, I don't think it would be fun for him/her to have to restart the whole thing without so much as a sandbox (respecing) to help facilitate the learning of game mechanics.

 

Silly argument without context? You mean like not having a respec option because you don't want to use it? And you are just grasping at straws trying to compare a character respec to getting free money or instantly winning a battle. The fights and the gear are where the challenge is -supposed- to be, not getting locked into talents or skills that you didn't understand the big picture until it was too late. And don't be like "I don't intend to be mean, but you are a troll" when you know for a fact you literally intended to set yourself up to be a troll. Its ok to be wrong. Its happens to all of us from time to time. When the option to respec surfaces in your game, I hope you don't use it so you can maintain your posturing. But even more than that, I hope you do need it,you do use it, and it helps you further enjoy your game. Not that I expected that to be posted on the internet with the same elitism.

[rjshae]

God i hate respec-ing. Choices should matter.

 

Then don't respec. Problem solved!

It depends on how game balance is designed. If the balance is such that you have to respec, then the problem is most definitely not solved. If you don't need to respec to solve the game, then it does nothing but add an unrealistic gimmick. The very presence of respec will alter the game in a significant manner.

Edited October 30, 2012 by rjshae

[Rubicon]

It depends on how game balance is designed. If the balance is such that you have to respec, then the problem is most definitely not solved. The very presence of respec will alter the game in a significant manner.

 

Well now we are touching on a completely different topic. No one said anything about designing the game to force you to have to respec, or respec between bosses, or respec between levels. If the game is designed so that you have to have it, then it has to be there. That is not to say that because the game was designed for it not to be necessary doesn't mean I should have the option either way. If the game is 70 hours long, I don't want to start over at hour 30 because that's when I realized I would have been much happier with a playstyle thats style X instead of Y. I would rather spend those extra playthroughs on different races/classes/alignments. Not on backtracking because I misspent my points.

[Farbautisonn]

Personally I dont give a crap about fighting and gear. Im in it for the story. If I can complete PE without swiniging a sword or letting loose a single fireball, Ill be near elation.

[Rubicon]

Personally I dont give a crap about fighting and gear. Im in it for the story. If I can complete PE without swiniging a sword or letting loose a single fireball, Ill be near elation.

 

Good luck with that. I think it would be fun too. But I also enjoy tactical fantasy combat. But I would like it more with the occasional ability to respec if I wanted.

[Pipyui]

Silly argument without context? You mean like not having a respec option because you don't want to use it? And you are just grasping at straws trying to compare a character respec to getting free money or instantly winning a battle. The fights and the gear are where the challenge is -supposed- to be, not getting locked into talents or skills that you didn't understand the big picture until it was too late. And don't be like "I don't intend to be mean, but you are a troll" when you know for a fact you literally intended to set yourself up to be a troll. Its ok to be wrong. Its happens to all of us from time to time. When the option to respec surfaces in your game, I hope you don't use it so you can maintain your posturing. But even more than that, I hope you do need it,you do use it, and it helps you further enjoy your game. Not that I expected that to be posted on the internet with the same elitism.

 

I'm sorry for insulting you (I'll admit, my last post may have been a little passive-aggressive, but my concerns remain unwavered), I'm just trying to get a little more elaboration out of you on your arguments. As I said, I know my argument presented above was a strawman attack on your own, but I still feel that it addresses an issue many others here seem to be concerned with about your argument (it was meant as a medium to better relay my own concerns, not as an attack on you). I'm not saying that respecing is equivilent to the examples I portrayed, but that it is a small step towards those concerns. Players should be granted a lot of freedom in what they do, but too much freedom can lead to an undermining of a game's design. How do you intend to address the topic?

 

Also, I did state that I supported respecing with hefty penalty, because I don't believe that a lack of full knowledge and experience with a game and its mechanics should be a barrier to playing it, but respecing should still be discouraged.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Pipyui

[Rubicon]

I'm sorry for insulting you, I'm just trying to get a little more elaboration out of you on your arguments. As I said, I know my argument presented above was a strawman attack on your own, but I still feel that it addresses an issue many others here seem to be concerned with about your argument. I'm not saying that respecing is equivilent to the examples I portrayed, but that it is a small step towards those concerns. Players should be granted a lot of freedom in what they do, but too much freedom can lead to an undermining of a game's design. How do you intend to address the topic?

 

Also, I did state that I supported respecing with hefty penalty, because I don't believe that a lack of full knowledge and experience with a game and its mechanics should be a barrier to playing it, but respecing should still be discouraged.

 

I do not believe that you are sorry for insulting me. I believe you deliberately did it and now you are doing some back peddling, which is fine by me. I very rarely respec myself in games other than MMO's . I totally agree with is having a cost, a quest chain, only on certain occasions. I addressed the topic by saying that it was something simple to implement without additional game development cost. I further stated that it should be optional so that if you wanted to skip it you could. I even further stated that it would be a mistake to take a cost efficient option away from people who would sue it because a few internet voices want the game to be harder for the general public. I donated to this game to be best of my budgetary ability, and I still consider myself just a regular ol gamer. I make mistakes from time to time, and so do others. It has never "broken" the game when I have respecced in others before. So it seems like I did address all the topics and you are speaking in generalizations, insults followed by back peddling and then eventually agreeing with me. So....I am not sure what you think I am avoiding, especially the way you have handled the topic.

[Sacred_Path]

Respeccing as an option is fine as long as it doesn't allow you to deliberately pump certain skills/ traits in the beginning, then changing to a different build later on as those old skills get less useful/ obsolete, because it would no longer be optional but required of a skilful player. Anything that influences the balance of a game is NOT optional.

[Farbautisonn]

Good luck with that. I think it would be fun too. But I also enjoy tactical fantasy combat. But I would like it more with the occasional ability to respec if I wanted.

And thats the crux of it. Personal and subjective opinions. I am not in favour of respeccing for RP reasons. Your reasons for wanting the ability to respec seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) in order to make "tactical fantasy combat" more "optimal".

[Rubicon]

And thats the crux of it. Personal and subjective opinions. I am not in favour of respeccing for RP reasons. Your reasons for wanting the ability to respec seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) in order to make "tactical fantasy combat" more "optimal".

 

Yes and no. Sometimes its because you have have an idea that you think you are building, even for RP purposes, and then come to find out you misread something, or its just not doing what you expected it. Then it can hurt both the tactical combat, and also how you viewed the RP part of your character as well. And sometimes it doesn't reveal itself instantly. It may be the 3rd or 4th tier if talents that reminds you "boy did I screw that up." Its happened to me in WOW, in Borderlands, DAO, and virtually any other game that has talents and skills like that. I get about 20-30 hours in, realize I screwed up, respec, and then usually finish out the game having played it enough to understand how the mechanics worked. So... its both for RP and tactical purposes.

[anubite]

Respecs can cheapen the decisions you make in-game.

 

We shouldn't expect new players to make perfect characters on their first play through of the game.

 

But at the same time, a game shouldn't play itself. Where is the challenge if you can redo all the choices you've made at the tip of your hat?

 

Respeccing once per character at some extreme cost, seems... like an acceptable compromise, but I don't think it's a feature we need. I know people who have only played 'new' RPGs might be accustomed to respeccing, but we're deliberately not catering to that group of people, I thought?

[Rubicon]

I know people who have only played 'new' RPGs might be accustomed to respeccing, but we're deliberately not catering to that group of people, I thought?

 

I have played most every RPG I could get my hand on since the early 90s. I like respeccing. I thought the game was catering to fans of isometric RPGs. I am not sure how having an option to respec hurts that, other than making the game more restrictive, which only makes people who want a restrictive game, which I, as a donator, oppose.

[Rabain]

Nothing wrong with respeccing if there is an appropriate cost associated with it. If we have stats, skill and abilities that are somewhat inter related then allowing free respeccing could cause some of that degenerate gameplay Obsidian spoke of trying to reduce.

 

Things like a cooldown on respeccing or a high in game gold cost...something, it just has to have a cost that works to reduce the chance of it being abused.

[Gorgon]

I support the option of a complete skill respec. You quite often wind up not having your build just the way you want it, you find out a skill you selected sucked and you are stuck with it etc, but it's not like you would bother starting over. I don't mind it costing a lot of gold or some experience even, so you don't misuse it.

[Gleipnir]

I have played most every RPG I could get my hand on since the early 90s. I like respeccing. I thought the game was catering to fans of isometric RPGs. I am not sure how having an option to respec hurts that, other than making the game more restrictive, which only makes people who want a restrictive game, which I, as a donator, oppose.

 

Restrictive? How about the freedom to fail? If we allow respeccing, why not allow repeateble quests so that you can finish them in every possible way? SO MUCH freedom! It like MAGIC! You can do whatever you like and no consequences! Weeeeeeee!

[Rubicon]

Restrictive? How about the freedom to fail? If we allow respeccing, why not allow repeateble quests so that you can finish them in every possible way? SO MUCH freedom! It like MAGIC! You can do whatever you like and no consequences! Weeeeeeee!

 

You mean like by being able to save the game? Please tell me you will let me save when not in combat? lol. So let me get this straight. You don't want me to save, respec, or be able to buy better gear. Isn't there a mode for masochists like you? I just want to enjoy the story and have relatively challenging combat. I would also like to be able to open a save file if I lose a battle and try again. I also would like to be able to respec if I am disappointed with the way one spec plays over another. Stick to the super hard mode. Leave the regular game alone.

[Gleipnir]

 

I look at saving a game as a tool of the player not the character. I actually have nothing against a character editor and you can create and edit whatever you like, outside the game. I just have something against something holding my hand and forgiving me for all my mistakes in the game itself. It is like being allowed to take back moves when playing chess. I have no idea wether the game will be hard or easy, but it sounds like you want a game not worth playing.

[Rubicon]

holding my hand and forgiving me for all my mistakes in the game itself, but it sounds like you want a game not worth playing.

 

Sounds to me like you are just trying to make the game cater to an exclusive few instead of a majority of players for your own ego stroking. And it sounds like instead of legitimate arguments you tend to move toward name calling. I have no idea if the game will be hard or easy, but it sounds like your in game character might roll a higher intel than your real life persona.

[Gleipnir]

Sounds to me like you are just trying to make the game cater to an exclusive few instead of a majority of players for your own ego stroking. And it sounds like instead of legitimate arguments you tend to move toward name calling. I have no idea if the game will be hard or easy, but it sounds like your in game character might roll a higher intel than your real life persona.

I'm not sure I understand you, it must be my low intelligence and terrible ego that prohibits me from accepting anything other than my own views. I can not speak for others or know what "majority of players" want. All I can say are my views and and "I" want or what "I" think.

 

I have also, like you boasted, played many rpg's for 80¨s 90's and the 00's. Many were bad, more were terrible and a certain few I found to be good. The mechanics we are discussing in this thread are from games that come from the "bad" catagory. Boring, repetitive and no replay value. I am not saying that EP will turn out that way, but I have yet to see a good game succeed with such a handicap mechanic.

[Rubicon]

I'm not sure I understand you, it must be my low intelligence and terrible ego that prohibits me from accepting anything other than my own views. I can not speak for others or know what "majority of players" want. All I can say are my views and and "I" want or what "I" think.

 

I have also, like you boasted, played many rpg's for 80¨s 90's and the 00's. Many were bad, more were terrible and a certain few I found to be good. The mechanics we are discussing in this thread are from games that come from the "bad" catagory. Boring, repetitive and no replay value. I am not saying that EP will turn out that way, but I have yet to see a good game succeed with such a handicap mechanic.

 

Let me see if I can make it clearer. You use negative and slandering wording to try to validate your opinion. Its a last resort of a person with no facts. In no way is being able to respec a character a "handicap" mechanic. If anything is a "preference" mechanic. And you can talk all the trash in the world but it won't make your opinion any more valid, or in this case, true.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Rubicon

[Gleipnir]

Let me see if I can make it clearer. You use negative and slandering wording to try to validate your opinion. Its a last resort of a person with no facts. In no way is being able to respec a character a "handicap" mechanic. If anything is a "preference" mechanic. And you can talk all the trash in the world but it won't make your opinion any more valid, or in this case, true.

Okay, let's call it a "preference" mechanic. It is none the less a handicap to the playability of the game and I "prefer" it not be directly a part of the game. I cannot think of a game that allows for the editing of the main character without a complete lack of immersion, such as mmo's. The main character we make will have absolutely no personality, except for the choices he or she will make. This includes certain abilities that are acquired or training that is taken. If we can change and unlearn what has been established then these decisions are trivialised and you've got a 1 dimensional character.

[Metabot]

Why is there always a respec thread?

 

It's not the end of the world if you just kind of don't like where your character is going.