Stealth, backstabbing and thievery

[One-Eye Jack]

Stealth should be mostly field of vision and secondly listening... for the person being snuck up on. for the sneaker it is their skill modified by any stats or buffs and reduced by terrain and lighting modifiers... and metal gear in 1988 had that (albeit not very well developed.. but they had it)

[HansKrSG]

OP you mentioned a great deal about weapon variety but consider this: all things being equal, (I.e. you are equally taking the target by surprise) when is there a scenario where a dagger is better? Why should a dagger do more backstab damage? I would think a surprise claymore to the skull far more effective than a knife. That being said, I would like to see stealth penalties on larger weapons as an effective way to mitigate the problem. Daggers ought to be for backstab because they are concealable, not because of some illusiory advantage of lore. I would even be ok with nothing greater in size than a shortsword even capable of backstabbing, or at least for sneaking, to get around this issue.

 

The advantage of a dagger compared to a claymore, is that dagger can be more easily used for deep penetrating strikes in "soft-spots". If you get behind, unseen and unheard your foe and can use the time you need to place your dagger deep into your enemys main artery between neck and shoulder, or even just cut his throat with a knife, you could more easily kill someone ouright (or at least make them bleed to death after half a minute), than if you whacked him in the general direction of his head, with a bigger weapon. Being able to do deep penetration and precision has a lot to say when you want to stealthily kill someone quickly.

Edited October 23, 2012 by HansKrSG

[JFSOCC]

I think one of the reasons why stealth is often underwhelming is because the application of it was limited by game mechanics. like, you don;t need to hide bodies because they often just fade, so the game engine doesn;t get clogged up. While dishonoured doesn't seem like the game I would like it to be, I did think it an interesting feature that you could have a special ability that would destroy bodies after killing them (leaving their loot)

 

I too play stealthy characters, which btw, pet peeve: just because I like to play a stealthy character doesn't mean I want him to be the rat-faced charisma-less character. I'd rather have me be the well spoken "I'd never expect it of him!" character with the hidden skillset.

[Infiltrator_SF]

I don't understand why so many claim that stealth is difficult to do in isometric view. All old tactical isometric games like Jagged Alliance or Commandos had very good stealth system based on line of sight, light and even sound. Why RPG game should't inherit those systems for rogues? I agree that BG system was flawed with rogue going through the middle of the bright lighted room. It should be possible with invisibility spell of course but not with stealth. Invisibility and stealth should be separate mechanics (with some common grounds like making a noise if walking on some "squeeky" ground).

 

Also one thing that irritates me in IE games. Triggered conversations when my rogue walks in stealth or invisibility. It shouldn't be triggered unless he is spotted. Also if I kill the guy with backstabbing then the conversation should not trigger at all.

 

I agree, but it shouldn't be too hard to make stealth depend on lightning. Basically, there should be a heat map on every background, places under shadow should be darker, while illuminated ones lighter - the brighter the light, the lighter the heatmap, opposite to darkness, making the heat map darker. The heat map would basically incur a bonus or penalty on stealth checks.

 

And yeah, conversations triggering when you enter a room with your stealthed assassin is really awkward and just ruins it, I hope they realized by now they have to do away with those.

[TRX850]

I admit I skimmed through this thread, but I have an idea to improve stealth options, because being stealthy isn't just about passing unseen. It should also include distracting enemies and controlling behaviour.

Enter: The Distraction Wheel.

A solid wooden wheel about 12" in diameter, with a small section chamfered flat, so that when wheeled down a flagstone corridor, it mimics the sound of passing footsteps.

There are different grades of Distraction Wheels, but the basic construction consists of scrap wood fashioned together, with a cloth buffer to dampen the rolling noise, but allows the flat section to make a "tap....tap....tap" sound as it rolls.

Crafting a Distraction Wheel

Use Craft Trap skill check. Although the Distraction Wheel is not a traditional trap, it uses similar crafting skills and is more likely that an archetypal rogue/assassin will have ranks in this skill.

Quality       Ranks       Required Materials

Basic          5 ranks    Wood / Cloth
Average       10 ranks    Wood / Cloth / Leather
Masterwork    15 ranks    Wood / Cloth / Leather / Metal

The addition of leather is to craft a "half-shoe" to the wheel which creates a more convincing footstep. Other leather pieces can be loosely tacked on to add to the sound of a person walking. Metal studs and jangly chain/plate sections make the wheel even more convincing, like the sound of an armoured foe.

Deploying a Distraction Wheel

1. From your Quick Item slot, roll a Distraction Wheel in an area where nearby enemies are gathered, i.e. A hallway outside an occupied room. (It works better on hard surfaces).
2. Enemies within range make a Listen check.

3a. Failure = Enemies do nothing. Go to 5b.
3b. Success = Enemies enter Detect Mode (Active Search/Spot mode).

4. Enemies who are actively searching/spotting make an Intelligence check.

5a. Failure = Enemies Investigate noise location (small XP gain).
5b. Success = Enemies remain where they are.

Investigating enemies will return to their post after 1 minute. At which point the detect mode will reset (including non-investigating enemies). XP gains can only be awarded once for each enemy.

The enemy's intelligence check is opposed by the quality level of the Distraction Wheel. Enemies gain a +2 bonus if the wheel is deployed in outdoor areas (such as a bandit camp).

During the distraction attempt, hiding and moving silently functions as normal.

Another type of distraction method is the Clatterbag.
- A sack of broken and scrap items.

- Requires Cloth / Broken Items (such as scrap metal, broken glass, wood fragments etc).
- Far less effective than a Distraction Wheel, but useful in desperate situations.
 

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's my idea... anyone who is capable of 'fighting', if they get the drop or hide and then attack someone, can deal a whole crapload of damage!  IE, everyone who does 'fighting' can do the actual stabby-stabby part of backstab equally well.  The trick with the Rogue types?  They can create the situations -- like with bombs and similar non 'fighting this person in front of me' methods, where the person is way less able to defend themselves for such a powerful attack far more often than other people!

[Shadenuat]

Random ideas Osvir-style

 

- Thief using silent takedown to remove enemy scout, so party can avoid ambush or do their own ambush

- Thief seeing cones of vision and cones of hearing of enemies so whole party could avoid enemy groups

- Thief revealing Fog of War twice as far as any other character

- Thief climbing the window or ruined tower to throw party a rope or unlock a door to second entrance otherwise being inaccessible

- Thief climbing the ceiling Catwoman style and moving there, where no other party member could move, revealing whole map and traps before proceeding forward into dungeon

- Thief being able to eavesdrop or collect rumours

- Thief going stealth with a gun and backstabbing, I mean, backshooting enemy mage through arcane veil point blank into oblivion

Edited February 18, 2013 by Shadenuat

[TRX850]

Maybe Rogues automatically start with "Dirty Fighting" as their signature combat style?

 

So they're average fighters when standing toe-to-toe, but deadly when striking from the shadows, or while moving around (tumbling) in combat.  IIRC there was already mention of a "reverse shot" available to rogues, when diving past an enemy.  What about other dirty tactics?

 

- Eye Gouge

- Dislocate

- Jaw Breaker

- Suckerpunch

- Bell Ringer

- Foot Stomp

- Neck Snap

- Groin Attack (Yeaaargh!)

- Improved Dirty Fighting?

 

 

 

Edit:

 

If the rogue is tumbling around during combat, maybe some logical dirty attacks would depend if they tumble and land low: Stab enemy in the foot / knee / groin (if they have one) which causes slow / stun / enfeeblement etc.

 

Or if they tumble into an upright stance, then dirty attacks at the upper body would make sense: Eye / Jaw / Ear / Neck / Shoulder / Heart etc. So the enemy could be Blinded / Silenced / Deafened / Stunned / Enfeebled / Death-Struck respectively.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2013 by TRX850