Let's Fight --- a discussion of combat styles

[Monte Carlo]

This thread is for fighting classes. If you are a spell-caster or psionics weenie then start your own thread.

 

Fighting styles please?

 

Tank?

 

 

My thoughts here are --- can we speed up 2H weapons please? Am bored of the slow-moving tin can idea of a tank fighter.

 

How about fighting with shields?

 

 

At least Dragon Age: Origins tried to do something interesting with shields... I think that a character with a lot of skill with a shield can eschew heavier armour, perhaps, and still keep a good armour class. What do we think about different shield metrics (i.e. only effective against 'x' number of enemies, variables for missile attacks etc). Should certain weapons be especially symbiotic with shields (i.e. short spears, longer weapons?).

 

Ah... two handed / DW

 

 

Where are we with weapon sizes / penalties? Do we want to see the ridiculous but (if i'm honest) munchkin-heaven Monkey-Grip type feats?

 

Lastly, (for now) the Swashbuckler / light fighter (a favourite of mine, along with the Uber-Tank, I seem to like either / or builds).

 

 

Am loving the idea of an Errol Flynn character, lots of movement, dodging, quips and (yes!) pistols. What feats / skills / coolness should we try to capture with a high-medieval style elegant swordsman character?

 

Discuss, and lastly...

 

[Sensuki]

I power game so it really depends on the game

 

in BG1 I go sword and board because the speed factor of two handed weapons is too high

Bows is also pretty OP because of the extra attack per round

 

in BG2 I use Two Weapon Fighting, because any tough unit will be able to hit you no matter what your AC is when you get to the tough fights (and a lot of the damage is magic)

 

in Star Wars KotOR 2 I use single lightsaber because that with critical strike or flurry of blows and the feats that go with it are the best

 

Hopefully there's more balanced combat options in Project Eternity. I'd love to be able to do a few different ones.

[Monte Carlo]

I increasingly like the idea of a 300-style unarmoured fighter who has elite shield skills to make up for it. I also want to be able to use my shield as a last-ditch missile weapon!

[TheDogProfessor]

I've come to love the bow in the IE games. My girlfriend created an Elf Archer, (ranger kit) for a Baldur's Gate Trilogy play-through, with dex 19 and full proficiency with longbow and it is the most ridiculously OP thing I have ever seen. It's THAC0 -- if memory serves -- at 3rd level was 7 or lower.

[Sensuki]

Swords were pretty much always the best option in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale 1 as well because of the Speed Factor mechanic. The Flail of Ages +5 had a Speed Factor of 1 though I think.

 

Hopefully other weapons make a comeback.

 

Sword and Board was probably the best combo in Dragon Age too, at least it was when I played it (version 1.0)

[Monte Carlo]

Hmmm. Good point Ape, I hadn't considered missile weapons for this thread.

 

I find the use of missile weapons in CRPGs a bit silly, i.e. rates of fire and the ability to use a bow at virtually point-blank range.

[Sensuki]

D&D 3E tried to sort this out with a bonus to hit creatures equipped with a ranged weapon in melee combat.

 

Personally I don't care too much. I prefer awesome to realism.

 

Edited October 22, 2012 by Sensuki

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, undoubtedly cool...

 

http://youtu.be/sMjkfZ3q8tE

[Sensuki]

I seriously doubt we'll have much model interaction. Feargus already said Grappling is out, but Adam did mention something about pathfinding

 

We’re figuring out how characters can interact with each other. If one character is blocking another’s way, can they push each other out of the way, do they side step, can they share the same space? Does it feel right if they do that? That’s the kind of experimenting that we’re working on right now.

[general_azure]

I'd love to see shields using seperate mechanics instead of just adding to armor, maybe something like "can block up to x attacks coming from a cone of y° in front of you, at a chance of z%". Always felt it was weird treating shields as just another layer of plate, as if the damn thing was bolted to my back.

[Humanoid]

Would dearly love for a throwing weapons character to be viable, not as something you use a few times while foes close in, but as a primary weapon. Ideally it'd be viable for a solo game too, without having to rely on your big hulks in the front to keep enemies off you, but it didn't really work in previous games and I can see the difficulty in balancing it - not a must-have.

 

Actually that raises a point, will stealth (and detection in general) be handled "realistically" (as in Thief or even DX), or will the AI actors see you immediately after performing a hostile action - e.g. if I take someone in a group down with a throwing knife sneak attack, will the other enemies beeline towards me, or will they just go on alert and start searching?

 

 

Second issue/question would be about hit chance modifiers for distance. I don't think the IE games had them? Fallout did of course. In terms of personal use, I want to use a pistol as a backup weapon for melee range, but such a use would probably be contingent on them being just about 100% accurate at point blank.

 

EDIT: Also, while more generally directed and therefore not a combat issue per se: variable movement speeds. Yes or no? Can I build a character that can reliably outrun foes and flee a battle? Hopefully more than just the metagamish approach of just trying to race the enemy to the edge of the map.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Humanoid

[Darkpriest]

That Beagle Warrior HAS TO BE a companion/pet choice :D

[Monte Carlo]

Humanoid do you remember the crazy master of darts guy from BG1? He just lobbed darts and pwned your level 1 nobody. Maybe if that character had a speed advantage and mebbe a feature like a net he could weave around, hobbling hid enemies while hurling throwing stars or shuriken or whatever.

[Sensuki]

"HEAR THAT ZAL?"

[bronzepoem]

IMO, that depends on the graphics technology. How varied behavior can the 3D character model do, how excellent the fighting be.

If the 3D model can stun enemies,knock down their weapons, chop off their hands or legs,stumble them, poke them blind,kick them away, jump attack,defend by weapon, attack by shield, dodge attack by roll, even hold them by hands, wrap them by whip......Of course the melee fighting will become as funny as magic duel.

[Larkaloke]

I definitely agree with speeding up two-handed weapons, particularly two-handed swords and axes. Longswords are slightly slower than a smaller sword such as a rapier or smallsword might be, yes, but they are still actually quite quick to use. I haven't much experience with axes, but as they aren't much heavier than a sword, I figure they should also be relatively quick. I know that two-handed hammers are quite heavy comparatively, so those I might expect to be a bit slower.

 

Also in the two-handed category, I would like to see polearms as being very useful from the second rank or at a slight distance, but also useful (though perhaps slightly less so) when right up close.

 

I'd love to see shields using seperate mechanics instead of just adding to armor, maybe something like "can block up to x attacks coming from a cone of y° in front of you, at a chance of z%". Always felt it was weird treating shields as just another layer of plate, as if the damn thing was bolted to my back.

 

Yes. I am very much in favour of something like this. Also of shield bashing. Shield bashing should be a possible and valid thing to do, resulting in either some bludgeoning-type damage or knocking your opponent off balance (perhaps both) if successful.

 

As for weapon sizes, I'd prefer them to be realistically sized -- although considering the isometric angle, I don't really care too much how large they look on the models. I would like them to be of realistic weights, though (no ten or twenty pound swords, please).

 

For bows, I would like to see them be a very good option at a distance, but not a viable option right up close. A slow rate of fire might help that, I suppose.

[Amentep]

Where are we with weapon sizes / penalties? Do we want to see the ridiculous but (if i'm honest) munchkin-heaven Monkey-Grip type feats?

 

I think I ended up with dual wielding halberds, IIRC. It didn't make sense, but it was fun.

 

Personally while tanking and stuff is fun, if they're going the swashbuckling route as an option I think there needs to be better/good use of parry / disarm

[Arhiippa]

I'll probably play one of the spellcasting classes on my first playthrough, but if the system allows for a swashbuckler-type fighter (regardless of which actual class is best for the build), that is deadly by the virtue of his skill/wit more than brute strength and uses his agility/wit to avoid damage instead of absorbing it, I might change my mind. But it will largely depend how they implement armor and damage.

 

Sidenote: I really like the D20 implementation of AGOT by Guardians of Order, where strength is really useful, but not necessary, to build a REALLY deadly melee combatant.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Arhiippa

[eimatshya]

In DA:O, I loved sword and shield style when fighting ogres because you could learn an ability that resisted knockback/knockdown effects. It always made me feel like some epic hero out of legend when a charging ogre would bounce off of me instead of bowling me over like he usually would have. I can imagine how confused this ten-foot monster must have been to get out-tough-guyed by a puny human. Not very realistic of course but lots of fun.

 

I'd like to see some sort of ability in P:E that would allow you to become similarly stalwart in combat.

[Humanoid]

Humanoid do you remember the crazy master of darts guy from BG1? He just lobbed darts and pwned your level 1 nobody. Maybe if that character had a speed advantage and mebbe a feature like a net he could weave around, hobbling hid enemies while hurling throwing stars or shuriken or whatever.

 

This is the point ought to I admit I never played BG and slink away. But sounds about right - someone who's a real danger and not just an annoying insect that bothers you while the warriors and mages do the real work.

[Sarog]

Just *once* I'd like an RPG to let me use a shield-and-spear combo.

 

One of the world's oldest and most successful styles of infantry combat and RPGs never let you use it because of some arbitrary requirement that all spears be two-handed longspears.

[rjshae]

Higher level spells in D&D are so effective that I usually equip my fighters with the sword and heavy shield combo, rather than fighting with a two-handed weapon, dual weapons, or unarmed (monk). Doing so basically cut down on the post-combat healing. Perhaps it's not as fun as the other options, but it works as a gaming strategy (and as a historical strategy as well).

Edited October 22, 2012 by rjshae

[Tsuga C]

I'm all for disarming, tripping, bull rushing, etc., but the silly stuff like "monkey grip" needs to go by the wayside. That stuff always made me roll my eyes and I'd much rather not have to deal with it in P:E. Sure, I wouldn't have to use it, but there might be times where I'd be seriously outclassed by opponents employing such preposterous munchkin nonsense. It'd get very old, very quickly.

 

Yes, this is a fantasy game, but it's one for adults so let's limit just how far we stretch the credulity of the players. Dual wielding two-handed swords or polearms?

[Gromnir]

Just *once* I'd like an RPG to let me use a shield-and-spear combo.

 

One of the world's oldest and most successful styles of infantry combat and RPGs never let you use it because of some arbitrary requirement that all spears be two-handed longspears.

 

...

 

nope, we ain't going to do it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shevek]

I hope combat styles are a bit more balanced than previous games. Aesthetically, I perfer my fighters to be either sword and board or finesse fighters that run around with a one handed weapon and nothing in the offhand. These tend to be very crappy ways to play in the IE games despite being historically successful ways to fight.