Oversexualization of females in video games

[Darth Trethon]

I think it's hilarious how some think only women are oversexualized......human beings(both genders) are sexual creatures. Trying to hide it and cover it up just won't end well....let the devs have some fun with the development of the game.

[Furiku]

So someone who thinks there's nothing wrong with sex and sexuality in games, who wants internal consistency in a game's diegesis, who thinks fetish gear is alright if applied equally to both genders, who thinks Obsidian has given us great portrayals of women characters, and who's not a man is a primordial white-knight. Glad we cleared that up.

 

Maybe some "internal consistency" in your points would be good before you start berating other people, since none of what you say there fits together with much else you say or the posts you "Like".

 

I am definitely not for non-sexualized women in video games. Sexuality is a part of life and I have nothing against portrayals of sex or sexiness in games.

doesn't at all go together with:

Everyone agrees that a stereotyped, one dimensional portrayal of men as big muscly meatheads is dull, uninspired and can be offensive. And the portrayal of women as sex objects or eye candy is likewise uncreative, unimaginative and offensive. So why is it so difficult to admit that?

This is the most concise and smartest summary I've seen.

 

/thread

 

In regards to Justin Sweet, what I like about his art (other than the technical skill, the colour palette, and the moody atmosphere) is the range. He has women in boobplate, he has women not in boobplate.

doesn't go together with:

And neither do internet sexists represent the majority of gamers, and neither do their opinions or silly boobplate make a good game.

etc.

 

Also, someone still needs to point out where people started asking for underwear armor/fetish gear or chainmail bikinis (preferably a topic made with that cause in mind, like the 5-6 now available on feminism), I'd be fine if you people stopped trying to pressure Obsidian into feminism-based design where they banned any evidence of boobs or skin and went away. There's not much point in arguing out your specific points if you either don't know what you want or make them under false pretenses and then just keep repeating them over and over. Even some of the obvious feminists harping on about patriarchial enslavement are at least trying harder than that, and at least they know what they want.

I just hope you're more sure about some of the other points you bring up...

 

Repeating something over and over for 10 times won't make your points stick out any more by the way, or make people suddenly think you're right, it'll just make them annoyed.

[henofthewoods]

badmojo-

 

wow picking books that are supposed to be erotic for women is such a good comparison for a non-erotic rpg that is gender neutral. god forbid the idea that this isn't some boy's treehouse club.

 

 

what's with all these people that think that every piece of entertainment ever should satisfy their sexual fantasies? is porn not enough? i seriously don't get this.

 

moreover- why do people think that the original picture looks sexier? it's pretty dang obvious that the artist drew the character's body shapes then just traced armor onto it, hence why you see the slope of the breast and the underboobs are pretty prominent. it's not sexy. it's sloppy.

 

like, seriously, take a look at the actual model. it wasn't just the breasts, it was the entire suit of armor. if anything, the breasts were probably more of a oversight than anything else.

Edited October 23, 2012 by henofthewoods

[Joukehainen]

Maybe some "internal consistency" in your points would be good before you start berating other people, since none of what you say there fits together with much else you say or the posts you "Like".

 

Did you know that oversexualization is not the same thing as any portrayal of sex and sexuality?

 

Did you know that you can show a character's sex and sexuality in a way that does not reduce them to eye candy or a sex object?

 

Did you know that you can have a character who looks a certain way but challenges that stereotype; a character that is designed to challenge a stereotype?

 

Did you know that you can enjoy pornography without trying to turn other things, like say, certain game genres, into porn?

 

Did you know that sex depicted in books/games/films does not always have the same intentions behind it as porn does?

 

Did you know that some things, such as fetish outfits, might fit well in a hentai game, a porno, or an erotic artwork; but that doesn't mean those fetish outfits fit anywhere and everywhere?

 

If you think about these things, you might understand why my statements are not contradictions at all.

[Badmojo]

badmojo-

 

wow picking books that are supposed to be erotic for women is such a good comparison for a non-erotic rpg that is gender neutral. god forbid the idea that this isn't some boy's treehouse club.

 

 

what's with all these people that think that every piece of entertainment ever should satisfy their sexual fantasies? is porn not enough? i seriously don't get this.

 

I was pointing out that it is a sub genre targeted to FEMALE readers which there is NOTHING wrong with that. Old School RPG's were/are targeted to male players because that is the core players that have always been there. There is nothing wrong with creating a game targeted to a specific demographic. There are games created for men, there are games created for women, trying to create a game for both and you lose something in the process in the trade off. Now, I am sure someone is about to come on here and say that women gamers make up half the gamer population. Sorry, but that is BS, that number comes from an ESA messed up poll where they included ANYTHING with a game in the title, from facebook games, to mobile games, to flash games. If it had been something like, how many RPG games like PST, ID, BG..etc. I am pretty sure the percentage would be in the single digits. I admit there is no proof and would love to see an actual REAL survey taken. However, going by the men to women ratio I have seen on boards, and other sources seem to confirm this. I am NOT saying women should be discounted, but I think trying to change THE WHOLE GAME to not offend/be inclusive is a recipe to make the game less fun. Also, the people who are arguing to change the game are NOT EVEN WOMEN mostly, but a white knight trolls and prudes. I suspect some did not even contribute to the kickstarter, obsidian really should have had a section for KS donators only to filter out the KS trolls who are not even buying the game, just trolling websites and shoving political agenda and to prevent sock puppetting the boards.

[Jasede]

I admit I haven't been following this discussion. Can you refresh my memory why we need to petition to Obsidian not to include "fetish outfits" and "sex objects / eye candy"? Have they a track record of doing poor in this regard? Is this about that boob-plate sketch - which was redacted shortly because Sawyer felt it didn't suit the game?

 

Or are we merely arguing for the sake of it?

[henofthewoods]

Old School RPG's were/are targeted to male players

 

*citation needed*

 

I've always known a wide female audience for old school rpgs. I'm not just talking about friends, I'm talking about going to cons and game stores and meeting plenty of women who absolutely loved such games. Are there as many as men, no, but the audience is hefty enough that it isn't one to be ignored. Most rpgs I've ever known have been pretty gender neutral in terms of audience. It gets a bit biased due to the high male to female ratio when it comes to development, but it's understandable in that regard. That doesn't mean you can put up your "girls not allowed" sign and cry about the lack of stupid looking armor.

 

i don't know how rectifying bad design is considered feminists making things pc and bland because her breasts are less obvious and therefore she is completely ugly now i guess

 

maybe i should say that i really like breasts. they're really great and i like looking at them because it makes me feel good inside. one less obvious pair of breasts in a game that is not about sex for the sake of better design isn't going to ruin the game and if i really wanted to go see nice boobies i'd just do a quick google search or something.

 

also, jasede, i think the only reason why we're still talking about it is because people are crying about changing the design. that's what i got when i skimmed the original thread. *shrug*

Edited October 23, 2012 by henofthewoods

[Joukehainen]

I'm not arguing that we should petition anyone. I keep saying I think Obsidian's doing great with what we've seen so far, and has done in the past. If you don't know why I'm posting, reading some posts of mine (try the first one in this topic) might be a good place to start!

[Jasede]

Nicely put. See, I love a lot of things that'd make you want to claw your eyes out and bleach your brain but that doesn't mean I want to see them in a video game.

[kenup]

WooHoo! 16 pages **** yeah! Feminists vs Hormones part 300!

[Agremont]

I think it's hilarious how some think only women are oversexualized......human beings(both genders) are sexual creatures. Trying to hide it and cover it up just won't end well....let the devs have some fun with the development of the game.

 

I think you've missed the basic point about this discussion. It's about the "over" part. Exaggerated sexuality that doesn't make any sense. Heavily slanted towards one gender.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Agremont

[Badmojo]

Old School RPG's were/are targeted to male players

 

*citation needed*

 

I've always known a wide female audience for old school rpgs. I'm not just talking about friends, I'm talking about going to cons and game stores and meeting plenty of women who absolutely loved such games. Are there as many as men, no, but the audience is hefty enough that it isn't one to be ignored. Most rpgs I've ever known have been pretty gender neutral in terms of audience. It gets a bit biased due to the high male to female ratio when it comes to development, but it's understandable in that regard. That doesn't mean you can put up your "girls not allowed" sign and cry about the lack of stupid looking armor.

 

i don't know how rectifying bad design is considered feminists making things pc and bland because her breasts are less obvious and therefore she is completely ugly now i guess

 

maybe i should say that i really like breasts. they're really great and i like looking at them because it makes me feel good inside. one less obvious pair of breasts in a game that is not about sex for the sake of better design isn't going to ruin the game and if i really wanted to go see nice boobies i'd just do a quick google search or something.

 

also, jasede, i think the only reason why we're still talking about it is because people are crying about changing the design. that's what i got when i skimmed the original thread. *shrug*

 

I never said girls are not allowed, I just said it should focus on its main majority of players which will most likely be men. Lets take a pizza analogy, say 90% of a group loves pepperoni pizza, but only (I am being generous with this number)10% hate pepperoni and wants cheese. Now, does it seem fair change the WHOLE pizza to cheese? Hell, even making half the pizza to cheese seems overkill to please less than 10% of the pizza eaters. Ok, not a great analogy, but it shows my point I hope. So there are women who play RPG's, I know many who do. However, that does not mean I want them changing the things I like to suite their tastes which are DIFFERENT than mine and the majority of the players.

 

On a side note, I keep seeing chain mail bikinni mentioned over and over. NOBODY has said anything about chainmale bikinni's, that is something the white knights throw up to distract. We are talking about full body armour. The problem I have with removing boobarmour is that it turns the women into a dude in drag. Sorry, she is ugly as hell now. Do not get me wrong, I do think the boobarmour was a *bit* over the top, but at least she was obviously a she and it made her feminine, now she is some sexless thing. Might be a man, might be a women. Now every armoured character will be like this, male or female.

 

Of course, the armour debate is BS, its just a distraction, the WK just want to remove any women attractive appearance/sexuality in the whole game. Reread the other threads, they do want ugly women (seriously, no joke) and do not want attractive women because its offensive and not "real"...whatever the hell that means in a fictional fantasy setting.

[Badmojo]

I think it's hilarious how some think only women are oversexualized......human beings(both genders) are sexual creatures. Trying to hide it and cover it up just won't end well....let the devs have some fun with the development of the game.

 

I think you've missed the basic point about this discussion. It's about the "over" part. Exaggerated sexuality that doesn't make any sense. Heavily slanted towards one gender.

 

2 posts and this thread? Sock puppet

[Agremont]

 

 

2 posts and this thread? Sock puppet

 

I beg your pardon?

[Dream]

I think it's hilarious how some think only women are oversexualized......human beings(both genders) are sexual creatures. Trying to hide it and cover it up just won't end well....let the devs have some fun with the development of the game.

 

I think you've missed the basic point about this discussion. It's about the "over" part. Exaggerated sexuality that doesn't make any sense. Heavily slanted towards one gender.

 

Heavily slanted toward the demographic that buys these games? Heaven forbid.

[NerdBoner]

Yeah! Come on you guys! What the **** is up with you, expressing OPINIONS on a DISCUSSION FORUM?! We're not here to TALK about things or to type TEXT. Haha, text walls of china. Because words in a post are dumb.

 

Seriously guys writing is dumb.

 

Just because you have a lot to say doesn't mean it's worthy of being said, much less read...

 

and typing out essays for hours on end doesn't make your "position" anymore noteworthy or correct; how sad for that you would think otherwise.

[Agremont]

I think it's hilarious how some think only women are oversexualized......human beings(both genders) are sexual creatures. Trying to hide it and cover it up just won't end well....let the devs have some fun with the development of the game.

 

I think you've missed the basic point about this discussion. It's about the "over" part. Exaggerated sexuality that doesn't make any sense. Heavily slanted towards one gender.

 

Heavily slanted toward the demographic that buys these games? Heaven forbid.

 

I think you'll find that there are plenty of women into video games nowdays. Especially RPGs.

[Dream]

I think it's hilarious how some think only women are oversexualized......human beings(both genders) are sexual creatures. Trying to hide it and cover it up just won't end well....let the devs have some fun with the development of the game.

 

I think you've missed the basic point about this discussion. It's about the "over" part. Exaggerated sexuality that doesn't make any sense. Heavily slanted towards one gender.

 

Heavily slanted toward the demographic that buys these games? Heaven forbid.

 

I think you'll find that there are plenty of women into video games nowdays. Especially RPGs.

 

And I think you'll find that plenty of them either don't give a **** about boob plates or would prefer to play good looking characters.

[Agremont]

And I think you'll find that plenty of them either don't give a **** about boob plates or would prefer to play good looking characters.

 

Very possible. Although I don't see what good looks has got to do with the discussion.

 

And anyway, I'm just voicing my very own personal opinion. Not anyone elses.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Agremont

[henofthewoods]

pfft

However, that does not mean I want them changing the things I like to suite their tastes which are DIFFERENT than mine and the majority of the players.

RPGS have traditionally been pretty open ended when it comes to gender neutrality, typically because of how open-ended the story is. The thing that set these games apart from other genres were that they WEREN'T just catering to one group of people and that anyone could set their own paths. Other than maybe old school adventure games, I can't think of any other genre that has as high of a female to male ratio in terms of fans.

 

Making a game about being open-ended ONLY for men simply doesn't make sense.

 

The problem I have with removing boobarmour is that it turns the women into a dude in drag. Sorry, she is ugly as hell now. Do not get me wrong, I do think the boobarmour was a *bit* over the top, but at least she was obviously a she and it made her feminine, now she is some sexless thing. Might be a man, might be a women. Now every armoured character will be like this, male or female.

 

If you seriously can't tell that she's a woman when they made her breasts slightly less prominent then that's kind of your own problem, dude. That suit of armor is still pretty feminine (fitting the waist pretty tight, giving her an distinct hourglass shape) and honestly if we wanted to really go accurate, it'd be less form fitting than it is now. Her breasts are still pretty obvious and still slightly curve pretty tightly. I have no idea what your experience with women is, but simply sticking breasts on a man's body will not create a woman and you should know that.

 

Even then, a woman's design in a game not about sex should not be made for the sake of looking sexy towards men. I'm sorry if you don't find her attractive simply because her boobs are more protected now.

 

Of course, the armour debate is BS, its just a distraction, the WK just want to remove any women attractive appearance/sexuality in the whole game.

 

the feminists are coming

 

 

 

Just because you have a lot to say doesn't mean it's worthy of being said, much less read...

 

and typing out essays for hours on end doesn't make your "position" anymore noteworthy or correct; how sad for that you would think otherwise.

 

on the top where the tab for this window is, there is a x. you should click that when you think something is dumb and you don't want to read it so you could go out and do actual fun stuff. i'd do that myself, but im sick and can't leave bed right now

Edited October 23, 2012 by henofthewoods

[Dream]

And I think you'll find that plenty of them either don't give a **** about boob plates or would prefer to play good looking characters.

 

Very possible. Although I don't see what good looks has got to do with the discussion.

 

And anyway, I'm just voicing my very own personal opinion. Not anyone elses.

 

Kinda hard to tell a character is good looking if they look exactly the same as a dude in full plate.

[Agremont]

And I think you'll find that plenty of them either don't give a **** about boob plates or would prefer to play good looking characters.

 

Very possible. Although I don't see what good looks has got to do with the discussion.

 

And anyway, I'm just voicing my very own personal opinion. Not anyone elses.

 

Kinda hard to tell a character is good looking if they look exactly the same as a dude in full plate.

 

Yes if the face is covered it would be kind of hard to see if the character is good looking. But that doesn't change if you add boobs to the armor. Sure the sex becomes more apparent, but she could still look like an old crone in the face. If the face isn't covered, then the sex and possible attractivness of the character would still be apparent, even if the armor isn't obviously female.

 

Also as pointed out by others, there are way to make armor look feminine without boobplates. The female form is much more than breasts.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Agremont

[henofthewoods]

im starting to think that half of you folks have never seen a woman in real life

 

 

man that is such a manly figure isn't it i can't tell it's a woman at all

[Badmojo]

RPGS have traditionally been pretty open ended when it comes to gender neutrality, typically because of how open-ended the story is. The thing that set these games apart from other genres were that they WEREN'T just catering to one group of people and that anyone could set their own paths. Other than maybe old school adventure games, I can't think of any other genre that has as high of a female to male ratio in terms of fans.

 

Making a game about being open-ended ONLY for men simply doesn't make sense.

 

Ok wait, one minute the white knights have been bitching that RPG's are only created for men, that the games are all sexist, no games are created for women! Now you are saying they have traditionally been gender neutral? Which is it?

 

Besides, I was pointing to creating games TARGETED to the dominate demographic which will be men. Most women are just not interested in old school RPG's, no matter what the KS/fem group cries. Most women have different tastes, are there exceptions? of course. I have met them, however they are the exceptions and NOT the rule. The argument to change the game so it will draw in more female members is stupid. They are just NOT interested in this.

 

However, trying to draw in more player from different groups is always bad, it turns dull and stupid. Look at bio(ea)ware games to see what happens when you try to please everybody and not offend anybody.

 

Now compare that too the witcher 2 which is decidely made for a particular demographic.

 

If you seriously can't tell that she's a woman when they made her breasts slightly less prominent then that's kind of your own problem, dude. That suit of armor is still pretty feminine (fitting the waist pretty tight, giving her an distinct hourglass shape) and honestly if we wanted to really go accurate, it'd be less form fitting than it is now. Her breasts are still pretty obvious and still slightly curve pretty tightly. I have no idea what your experience with women is, but simply sticking breasts on a man's body will not create a woman and you should know that.

 

Even then, a woman's design in a game not about sex should not be made for the sake of looking sexy towards men. I'm sorry if you don't find her attractive simply because her boobs are more protected now.

 

Sorry, s(he) is ugly. When they are put in small sprite form in the game you wont be able to tell if its a guy or a girl. There is NOTHING wrong with making characters sexy/attractive. I am sorry if this offends some prudes and white knights, but honestly even if obsidian caves to this, you will complain about something else about females, and then something else, and something else until the game turns into a PC wet dream game. I have no interest playing that game thank you very much.

[Agremont]

Sorry, s(he) is ugly. There is NOTHING wrong with making characters sexy/attractive.

 

Subjective opinion. What's sexy/attractive differs from person to person. Some like more covered up, others the opposite. Regardless, there are still times when it doesn't make sense.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Agremont