Romance and friendship?

[Jasede]

No to virtual masturbation, yes to quality writing. Biodrones go home.

[commie]

Keep (br)omances away from my RPG. You want a dating simulator go to Bioware. You want a LARP sim, go to Bethesda. You want Leisure Suit Larry in RPG form, go to CDPR. You want a RPG stay here and can the talk about romances. PS:T style bitter sweet character interactions or at a stretch the 'no sex' style of BG flirty banter are all that should be in PE.

Just a tip; your arguments and opinions will probably be better received if you at least attempt to explain and justify them rather than just stating them and telling people to accept them.

 

Well that's my OPINION and there's no need to explain or justify it but I've had a dozen years or putting up with flaccid dating and hiking simulators and when we finally have a tiny hope that things can change, the Bioware brigade descends to try and hijack another game with the hope of turning it another of the conveyor belt forgettable products that they are enamoured with. They tried it with Wasteland 2, but Brian isn't exactly in the mood to take such things, so they now moved here thinking that Obsidian is more 'mainstream' and thus more succeptible to such pressure. These people would like nothing more than making every RPG's most crucial decision be deciding whether to shag the officer with a hot ass but cold exterior or the homely, awkward girl with freckles.

 

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

 

Umm.... what? Bioware had hiking simulators and dating simulators? ..... Where? Not to mention DAO and ME are still two of the most critically acclaimed rpgs, people still boast, talk, and play these games (include NWN 2 in that.) So not sure.. that they're really forgettable, though I do agree that the 'sex' cut scenes were unnecessary. And somehow... romance now =sex again... of course. It seems another person has been claimed with the idea that Romance must = sex must = cut scene must = major part of the game syndrome. There is a doctor somewhere... here for you, with a nice shot of wake up! You need to unlearn all you have learned and look back at the romance in Planescape Torment, BG2, and stop focusing all your hatred on what Publishers did to the gaming community. Obsidian is not publishing this game they are developing it, we the backers are publishing it... sort of. We payed for it anyways, that's the point.

 

Bioware makes dating simulators, Bethesda makes hiking simulators. I was talking in general that those two types of game made up the bulk of the pseudo-RPG experience of the last decade. PS: T handled romanced the right way: there weren't any crude and emabarrasing sex scenes all over the place and the interactions that hinted at possible or past romances were actully little windows on TNO's past and indeed his soul and character. BG2 had pathetic romance parts but they also were more of a comical aside and didn't feature any tasteful pixellated intercourse either.

 

In modern Bioware games, the PC bi/gay/straight combinations, the whole buying gifts, saying the right things/spending time with the character in order to get an entirely irrelevant sex scene at the end is frankly insulting and is a HUGE part of the game. This isn't a couple of lines in the IE engine and nor is any of this central to the plot in anyway but the effort spent on it is massive and it really detracts from the rest of the game.

 

By all means, have the odd flirty remark between NPC's and maybe leave a bit of room for imagining that maybe your monk and the cleric that runs the local hospice might make a cute couple once your 'save the world' adventure is over, but why make it a focus? It actually works better by leaving it up to the player to join the dots and come up with their own narrative rather than having a mass of creepy uncanny valley amalgam of polygons, going for it in a cutscene.

[villain of the story]

I don't hate dislike romance the way it was in PST but I HATE it the way it was in Bioware games in general where characters exist merely to appease the player's and only the player's sexual preferences and don't have their own individual integrity where all it takes to bed a character is to play the ridiculously gimmicky gamist system to "unlock" "sex". No one calling himself liberal or progressive big on social justice or whatever should support that kind of disgusting gimmicky tokenist attitude towards romance, sex and maturity in general. BioWarian Romance is the antithesis of these things.

 

You should choose your words more wisely. BG and BG2 - are Bioware's games. And there would be no PST or IWD without BG.

 

Uh, and the point is? Is there an actual argument in there?

 

Also, you should choose your words more wisely. BG and BG2 - are D&D licensed games published by Interplay. And there would be no BG or Bioware without Interplay or D&D, and no Interplay or D&D without Brian Fargo or Gary Gygax. And neither wrote any romances for their games. (see, I can do it too! R00FLES!)

[Rahelron]

You would be right... if we were talking about movies or books. But we are talking about videogames. Let me explain.

In books and movies the audience is passive. You have to read or watch something that the author wants to tell you. After that you can judge if that theme (or message) was worth your time, if you agree with the author and stuff like that. In that kind of environment "giving what the audience wants" is a bad thing because destroys the artistic freedom of the author and always turns out in boring and cheap stories.

 

But games are different. In games the audience is not passive, the players are the active force that drives the story forward. As the story goes on they make choices that change what happens, they shape their own experience. If the developers don't embrace this concept (which by the way is what makes games different from other kind of media as a form of art) then they create an interactive movie where the player has to fight his way thourgh dungeons (like in RPGs) or solve puzzles (like in graphic adventure games) to see how the story goes on. This is what every true RPG fan hates because limits freedom and doesn't take advantage of the strenghts of the media: the ability to provide interactive experiences.

 

What I want to say is that the developers should give the players the possibility to shape their own experience with their actions. This doesn't mean "including romance stories for the sake of having them", it means allowing the people who want to roleplay a romantic character to be free to do just that. If the developers think that spending time with romance stories is something that should have negative consequences within the world and the story they are want to create (i.e.: you shouldn't waste time having sex with your companion while the monsters are conquering the world) they should add some negative consequences within the gameplay. But limiting the player freedom by erasing romance stories is just a pure loss.

 

That is great and all, but you've simulatenously missed my point and proven it at the same time. Maybe you should read it again.

 

You're arguing for romances not because they have any specific narrative or thematic importance, but as a game feature for the purposes of wish fulfillment.

 

Also, you're confusing plot with narrative thematics. Whereas games are able to have non-linear plots unlike the layout of typical films, the prevailing themes of a game's narrative can still be present regardless of plot divergence and player initiative.

 

An example: Planescape: Torment.

 

I'm not arguing anything that you said, and I'm perfectly aware of the difference between narrative thematics and plot.

 

You have to understand that while movies and books use a linear story to deliver their narrative thematics games can't do just that, unless they want to become movies themselves. The developers can't scrap such an important feature just because it's not directly linked to the theme they want to express. If they want to create a true interactive experience that lets the player have real gameplay freedom they have to deal with the problem and find a fitting way to include everything in the game.

 

In story driven media (books, movies, dramas, opera, story driven games...) romance is one of the main themes, so you can't just ignore it if you are trying to craft an interactive experience that aims to "give freedom to the player".

[Mils]

Personally I would love well made companion friendship and romance paths.

 

I felt the romance/friendship paths in BG2 were very well done, and give a great example of the type of thing seen in the IE style games. Many of the characters developed a deep relationship with the PC depending entirely on the path you chose to take and how you reacted to both the companion and the world around you. These did not always lead to romance though.

 

The romances that did occur always brought out a new side of the character, one that reflected that character maturing in response to your actions throughout the game and how you chose to interact with said companion.

 

*BG2/TOB SPOILERS*

 

 

 

My personal favourite was Aerie's romance with a male PC. throughout BG2 and TOB she grew from a wingey, scared girl into quite a strong personality. Whilst it was a romance, and the PC and Aerie could eventually 'marry', it felt more like it was just a natural progression of the PC's relationship with a very deep, well developed character.

 

My male wizard's friendship with Valygar seemed equally as important to companion development, and through dialogues with the PC about events they had been through, as well as both of our thoughts on various topics, lead him from being a magic-hating kill-all-mages type character to one that would eventually bring about fairer treatment of magic-users by his son, who became the leader of the cowled wizards (explained in the end-game).

 

 

*SPOILER END*

Essentially you could directly influence a companions development as a person by how you reacted to the world, sometimes certain companions would strongly disagree, and sometimes you could change their opinion on matters. None of the friendships, or romance paths, were ever forced upon you, or integral to the story, but you often got to learn alot more about a certain character by befriending them, and often influence their view on the world, watching them grow in response to your actions.

 

Just my thoughts on the topic.

[Arkeus]

Josh Sawyer on romance: http://www.rpgwatch....hread.php?t=953

 

And just for fun, here's Bioware writer Patrick Weekes' somewhat amusing reaction to that: http://www.rpgwatch....98&postcount=32

 

It's hard choice, but I tend to agree here with Patrick - but it's really 'close call'.

The more choices we have in the game - the better. Romance - is a type of choice, basically. But it should be done well, as other things in the game.

 

Romances take away choices, though.

 

If you are have a romance-able character as a companion, it means everything you do when you talk to him would be about romance, because that's how he will react. You cannot have a simple conversation without him/her coming into your character. Likewise, it also means a lot of character-type can't exist, or if the author try to do a certain character type but add romance, then it will destroy it.

 

Let's give examples:

 

+Jaheira: Jaheira was supposed to be a very much older Aunt-like character in BG1, who has been married for a while. Her husband dies, and she has a quest about her old masters (the harpers). She also becomes romance-able... and 99% person fo her character dies then. Also, saying you don't want to go out with her is the 'end' of talking to her (like saying you do want to, amusingly.)

 

+Alistair: Alistair is the classic paladin companion, except he is a horny boy, and if you are too nice to him he WILL try to romance you- even if you are already with someone else, or whatever. He will take any and all comments that agrees with his way of thinking as "she is already dating me".

 

And now, for controversy:

+Avelline in DAII: People might say DAII is awful and so on, and it's clearly a action-rpg. But it did do some things right, and Avelline is clearly one of those. She is your big sister. Your character can try to flirt with her, and she will remain oblivious. She might even kiss you- as a good friend. In her case, the writers stuck to the characterisation, and it was awesome.

 

Tll;dr: Having romanceable characters mean that you lose options when you use said characters, AND they usually end up being very badly done or destroyed by the romance.

[Loranc]

Umm.... what? Bioware had hiking simulators and dating simulators? ..... Where? Not to mention DAO and ME are still two of the most critically acclaimed rpgs,

Yes yes, let the dark side flow through you. 6 trillion flies cannot be wrong, manure is excellent sustenance. No point arguing about details or specifics, if lots of people like something, it must be good! I wonder why Justin Bieber isn't singing opera? He must be an excellent singer, all that critical acclaim, sold-out venues and millions of fans.

 

So not sure.. that they're really forgettable, though I do agree that the 'sex' cut scenes were unnecessary. And somehow... romance now =sex again... of course. It seems another person has been claimed with the idea that Romance must = sex must = cut scene must = major part of the game syndrome. There is a doctor somewhere... here for you, with a nice shot of wake up! You need to unlearn all you have learned and look back at the romance in Planescape Torment, BG2, and stop focusing all your hatred on what Publishers did to the gaming community. Obsidian is not publishing this game they are developing it, we the backers are publishing it... sort of. We payed for it anyways, that's the point.

But romance in BG2 did lead to sex. Every Bioware romance leads to sex - from BG2 to ME3 and all the games between. And make no mistake, the Biodrone-brigade here is not asking for MCA-style "romance", they are asking for more Bioware-style "romance". Say no to that crap already, don't apologize to them.

 

That's why i'm pushing hard for the PST style of romance and what Sawyer said in my above post. Keep in mind that in BG2 the better romance options for Aerie and the Dark Elf were to not sleep with them. But as far as ME and DAO are concerned I really enjoyed those games, they had lore, story, Un forgettable characters, party banter, it was all amazing, cept for how romance was handled. I've never played a game with more enjoyable party banter than DAO just listen.

 

[Chairchucker]

I am 'not opposed' to romances being included, but when there's an achievement attached to it that irks me slightly.

 

The main problems I have with romances as presented in ME3 (what the hell, everyone else is using Bioware examples, and that's the only game in recent memory that I've played that had them) was that:

a. There were too many individual people who were capable of falling in love with - or wanting to sleep with - Shep, regardless of Shep's behaviour; and

b. The romance ended, for all intents and purposes, with Shep sleeping with the other person. It was basically a minigame to have sex. No options to 'take it slow', it was basically 'if you are romantically interested in this character, signify this by initiating coitus.'

[Rahelron]

No to virtual masturbation, yes to quality writing. Biodrones go home.

 

I agree with you on this.

 

I never agreed with angry joe when he said that including sex scenes in a videocame means "treating the player like an adult". It means treating him like an horny teenager.

 

 

I'm all for romance stories in videogame, bu this doesn't mean that I'm for soft porn and jerking material.

[Infinitron]

Regardless of what one thinks about romance in particular, it amazes me how resigned Patricke Weekes was to his own mediocrity in that post. I wonder how he feels about what he said there now, five years later.

[Jasede]

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

 

Edit:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

Edited October 17, 2012 by Jasede

[Landuin]

Don't worry, the Nexus modding crowd will ensure we have plenty of day 1 jerking material.

[commie]

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

 

How much time do you think it took Bioware to create 10 spaceship models (which by the way are the main ship models just shrinked) the to include in the capitan's cabin? Those things don't take away time from the developers. If you were really concerned about such problems you should have complained about the whole Kickstarter prize system. Do you know how much time will take to collect all the NPC data sent by the backers and cram it into the game in a passable lore-friendly manner?

 

If you want the developers to focus on player agency and player freedom you shouldn't complain about romance stories, because they give more freedom and more agency to the player. You should go in the gameplay forum and start asking to shut down some of the 11 classes and to avoid taking too much time into the combat system development. That's one thing that takes away a lot of time and resources, not some well written romance story.

 

How much time did it take them to record all the VO work to take into account the various romance permutations in DA:O or ME? Your strawman argument won't wash here. They didn't just make the spaceships or the fish, they made cutscenes, voiced interactions etc. all which really served no real purpose but actually; in light of the supposed desperate plight of the galaxy or world facing imminent destruction from Reapers or Darkspawn; made it ridiculous with Shepard or the Grey Warden spending more time trying to get their leg over than dealing with an imminent threat to the world. THIS is why I despise the focus on romance in RPG games. I've already said that it's ok in moderation, as some minor interlude or if it's DIRECTLY relevant to the progress of the plot, but otherwise, why waste time on it?

[Chairchucker]

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

 

The Paramour achievement in every Mass Effect game. A bunch of different achievements in Alpha Protocol.

[Living One]

Btw, I always got the impression that Annah and Fall-From-Grace's character arcs in PST were basically romances. They obviously cared immensely for The Nameless One. Those were great plotlines, and they didn't have to devolve into any dreadful, cringe-inducing exclamations of undying love.

 

I agree with this 110%!!!

Except that they were pretty much that,expecially as far as Annah is concerned:they both fell in love with TNO because he's teh awesomez and are ready to follow him everywhere just because of that.Now compare that to the rich backstory characters like Dak'kon,Morte,Vaihlor,etc. shared with TNO wich were their motivation to follow him.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Living One

[Jasede]

Give it a few more games and we'll get there, with that kind of fanbase.

[commie]

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

 

Edit:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

 

Well you get achievements for romancing each character that can be romanced in DA and ME. That's a pretty much open admission as to how important Bioware thinks these things are.

[Jasede]

You achieved: boner.

[Loranc]

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

 

How much time do you think it took Bioware to create 10 spaceship models (which by the way are the main ship models just shrinked) the to include in the capitan's cabin? Those things don't take away time from the developers. If you were really concerned about such problems you should have complained about the whole Kickstarter prize system. Do you know how much time will take to collect all the NPC data sent by the backers and cram it into the game in a passable lore-friendly manner?

 

If you want the developers to focus on player agency and player freedom you shouldn't complain about romance stories, because they give more freedom and more agency to the player. You should go in the gameplay forum and start asking to shut down some of the 11 classes and to avoid taking too much time into the combat system development. That's one thing that takes away a lot of time and resources, not some well written romance story.

 

How much time did it take them to record all the VO work to take into account the various romance permutations in DA:O or ME? Your strawman argument won't wash here. They didn't just make the spaceships or the fish, they made cutscenes, voiced interactions etc. all which really served no real purpose but actually; in light of the supposed desperate plight of the galaxy or world facing imminent destruction from Reapers or Darkspawn; made it ridiculous with Shepard or the Grey Warden spending more time trying to get their leg over than dealing with an imminent threat to the world. THIS is why I despise the focus on romance in RPG games. I've already said that it's ok in moderation, as some minor interlude or if it's DIRECTLY relevant to the progress of the plot, but otherwise, why waste time on it?

 

I wonder how much the heavy breathing and deep sighs cost for VO for every single sex cut scene...... I don't think the cut scenes were every really necessary it felt like they were trying to streamline video games into being more JRPG than CRPG.

[evdk]

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

 

Edit:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

 

Well you get achievements for romancing each character that can be romanced in DA and ME. That's a pretty much open admission as to how important Bioware thinks these things are.

They make up the majority of their fan base, of course EA thinks it's important.

 

 

 

You achieved: boner.

You seem rather fixated

Edited October 17, 2012 by evdk

[Jasede]

I'm sorry; it's just that reading this kind of thing is more than just a little infuriating. It's downright disappointing. Asking for these kind of influences in what could be a glorious renaissance of Obsidian is just depressing and the last thing I wanted to see in the morning. Here we have something that has the potential to be great and already people are trying to pull it into the mud with their fell and selfish desires.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Jasede

[prototype00]

*Steps carefully to avoid the pit of knives and acrimony*

 

So from what I can gather, if they made the romanceable characters in Eternity have romance arcs like those in Baldur's Gate 2 (and only VOing the first line as in the aforementioned) most people would be happy? (I.e. it wouldn't be trite, wouldn't hamper development, e.t.c.)

 

Well, lets hope Obsidian takes heed then and models it after BG2(it would, after all fall into the category of in the footsteps of previous Infinity Engine games, of which BG2 stands as a giant). Though we probably can allow for a little more interactivity than that, as I recall you couldn't even initiate conversation with your BG2 NPC companions.

 

For my part, I hope romances are included. They've always made me interact and identify with my companions more.

 

prototype00

[Landuin]

In defence of achievements, they are often implemented so that the developers and publishers can very quickly and easily track what content is being experienced by what percentage of the overall player-base. So, having an achievement for romances is not necessarily an indication that some special narrative importance is attached to them, but is simply a way for the publishers to say "x% of the players completed these, that shows how un/popular they are, we need more/less of these."

I know this is the case with game completing rates - examination of achievements show less than a third of players complete the average game.

 

Maybe I'm being a little too generous, though.

[Rahelron]

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

 

How much time do you think it took Bioware to create 10 spaceship models (which by the way are the main ship models just shrinked) the to include in the capitan's cabin? Those things don't take away time from the developers. If you were really concerned about such problems you should have complained about the whole Kickstarter prize system. Do you know how much time will take to collect all the NPC data sent by the backers and cram it into the game in a passable lore-friendly manner?

 

If you want the developers to focus on player agency and player freedom you shouldn't complain about romance stories, because they give more freedom and more agency to the player. You should go in the gameplay forum and start asking to shut down some of the 11 classes and to avoid taking too much time into the combat system development. That's one thing that takes away a lot of time and resources, not some well written romance story.

 

How much time did it take them to record all the VO work to take into account the various romance permutations in DA:O or ME? Your strawman argument won't wash here. They didn't just make the spaceships or the fish, they made cutscenes, voiced interactions etc. all which really served no real purpose but actually; in light of the supposed desperate plight of the galaxy or world facing imminent destruction from Reapers or Darkspawn; made it ridiculous with Shepard or the Grey Warden spending more time trying to get their leg over than dealing with an imminent threat to the world. THIS is why I despise the focus on romance in RPG games. I've already said that it's ok in moderation, as some minor interlude or if it's DIRECTLY relevant to the progress of the plot, but otherwise, why waste time on it?

 

Sorry, my post wasn't clear.

 

I was talking about the Mass Effect features that we have a chance to see in Project Eternity, not the ones we will never see. So I talked about the Spaceship Models because we will probably have stuff like that in the stronghold, I didn't talk about the romance cutscenes because the developers made it pretty clear that we won't have cutscenes in PE. Maybe something at the beginning and in the end, but nothing in the middle.

 

It is true that creating 4 to 10 full voiced cutscenes for every romance story drains time for actual gameplay development. But we are not going to see such things in PE. Having romances is going to mean having some dialogue section, and maybe a fade to black implying a sex scenes that we will never see. How much time might a thing like this take away from game development?

Edited October 17, 2012 by Rahelron

[BruceVC]

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

 

Edit:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

 

Edit:

 

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

 

No one on the Romance/Sex group is suggesting anything even remotely like this, you could try to contribute constructively to this debate instead of making absurd suggestions in an attempt to derail this thread.

 

Most people want Romance\Sex implemented in a way that is mature and similar to BG. I still have to be convinced why this is incompatible with a good RPG experience?