Romance and friendship?

[Loranc]

Keep (br)omances away from my RPG. You want a dating simulator go to Bioware. You want a LARP sim, go to Bethesda. You want Leisure Suit Larry in RPG form, go to CDPR. You want a RPG stay here and can the talk about romances. PS:T style bitter sweet character interactions or at a stretch the 'no sex' style of BG flirty banter are all that should be in PE.

 

br(romances) has nothing to do with a dating simulator or a LARP sim. So not sure what your argument or point even is. Not to mention that an RPG is basically a real life simulation of a story, basically you are playing a story that someone is telling you, the more real the better. Are you saying that romance is fake?

 

Anyways.. it all depends on preference, but your statement is full of flaws and illogical statements . You are comparing this..

 

 

to this...

 

 

And we're not talking apples and oranges here...

[Jaimi]

So many people hating on relationships and romances. I'd say just to ignore them, but apparently just the fact that they even exist is enough to cause ire to some. Lots of us enjoy them, and lots of us will pay for them, and the developers know that. For those "manly few" playing manly games on their manly pc's who don't need no "steenkin romances", and who really seem butthurt that others might get some enjoyment - go play diablo or some other game without a real story. Romances and relationships happen in stories, indeed they are the prime motivator in many, if not most stories, just as they are in Real Life.

[Furiku]

I don't know why this is so complicated to understand? People generally ask for 2 types of relationships ,straight and gay. Please explain all these other types of relationship combinations I am unaware of that people are demanding.

 

http://www.ebaumswor...watch/80849441/

http://www.funnyordi...animate-objects

 

And let's not forget the furries...

They will all come... flooding over here from their current base of operation at the Bioware Social Network... because somehow they decided RPGs are there to fulfill their sexual desires and needs.

 

In fact, some are probably right among us as we speak.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Furiku

[Loranc]

http://www.ebaumswor...watch/80849441/

http://www.funnyordi...animate-objects

 

And let's not forget the furries...

They will all come... flooding over here from their current base of operation at the Bioware Social Network... because somehow they decided RPGs are there to fulfill their sexual desires.

 

In fact, some are probably right among us as we speak.

 

Oh gawd the first time i heard that word Furrie I was like wth is that? Then someone explained to me about the massive furrie LARP sex parties......and just no... just no.

[evdk]

 

 

Okay I see where you get your number from, I agree. We should have ( the first part is always the main character)

• 2 x Straight relationships: Male - Female and Female - Male
  
• 2 x Gay relationships : Male-Male and Female-Female
  

 

Thats not too hard to implement I hope ? Other games have done it successfully

 

God, romances should be included when they are appropriate, not as an arithmetic function.

[BruceVC]

Keep (br)omances away from my RPG. You want a dating simulator go to Bioware. You want a LARP sim, go to Bethesda. You want Leisure Suit Larry in RPG form, go to CDPR. You want a RPG stay here and can the talk about romances. PS:T style bitter sweet character interactions or at a stretch the 'no sex' style of BG flirty banter are all that should be in PE.

Just a tip; your arguments and opinions will probably be better received if you at least attempt to explain and justify them rather than just stating them and telling people to accept them.

 

With all due respects, who are you to define what my RPG experience should be? I want a BG RPG experience with Romance\Sex. Why do I need to go elsewhere

[commie]

Keep (br)omances away from my RPG. You want a dating simulator go to Bioware. You want a LARP sim, go to Bethesda. You want Leisure Suit Larry in RPG form, go to CDPR. You want a RPG stay here and can the talk about romances. PS:T style bitter sweet character interactions or at a stretch the 'no sex' style of BG flirty banter are all that should be in PE.

Just a tip; your arguments and opinions will probably be better received if you at least attempt to explain and justify them rather than just stating them and telling people to accept them.

 

Well that's my OPINION and there's no need to explain or justify it but I've had a dozen years or putting up with flaccid dating and hiking simulators and when we finally have a tiny hope that things can change, the Bioware brigade descends to try and hijack another game with the hope of turning it another of the conveyor belt forgettable products that they are enamoured with. They tried it with Wasteland 2, but Brian isn't exactly in the mood to take such things, so they now moved here thinking that Obsidian is more 'mainstream' and thus more succeptible to such pressure. These people would like nothing more than making every RPG's most crucial decision be deciding whether to shag the officer with a hot ass but cold exterior or the homely, awkward girl with freckles.

 

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

[BruceVC]

Okay I see where you get your number from, I agree. We should have ( the first part is always the main character)

• 2 x Straight relationships: Male - Female and Female - Male
  
• 2 x Gay relationships : Male-Male and Female-Female
  

 

Thats not too hard to implement I hope ? Other games have done it successfully

 

God, romances should be included when they are appropriate, not as an arithmetic function.

 

People are suggesting that if you include Romances there would be "far too many combinations"

 

I am merely saying that only 4 combinations should be needed to keep almost all people happy.

[Jasede]

But all that said, this is THEIR game so we should NOT make demands and argue them endlessly with the same exact arguments which we've seen so many times before.

 

With such attitude, dear friend, I recommend you to logout from this forum and delete your account. After all, it's their game, and you shouldn't discuss it.

 

Regarding topic. I want romances. But I'm against 'DA' style romances. All NPCs should have prereqs to be romanceable! And they should be hard as stone. No more 'I will love you no matter if you are male or female or elf of dwarf'.

 

I didn't say we shouldn't discuss the game and give ideas but I've seen so many messages in these forums where people are basicly demanding that devs do what they want.

 

By large fans don't know what they want and if they give to everyone's demands the game will be a mess.

 

We can give them ideas, our opionions and feedback, but that should be it. The devs knows much better than any of the fans what the game needs and how it should be done.

 

This is exactly what I meant with wasting resources, if they say "Yes, there will be romances" then there's gonna be people demanding romances for every possible combination and it takes away the time from writing other content for the said companions.

 

 

 

I don't know why this is so complicated to understand? People generally ask for 2 types of relationships ,straight and gay. Please explain all these other types of relationship combinations I am unaware of that people are demanding.

 

Let's see... straight romances male -> female, female -> male, gay romances male -> male and female -> female so that's four companions out of the eight unless you want two companions both bi-sexual but then people would complain and demand that they want unique romances for all of those possibilities.

 

Okay I see where you get your number from, I agree. We should have ( the first part is always the main character)

• 2 x Straight relationships: Male - Female and Female - Male
  
• 2 x Gay relationships : Male-Male and Female-Female
  

Thats not too hard to implement I hope ? Other games have done it successfully

 

-> the point

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-> your head

 

Don't you realize how insipid it'd be to write romances based on a check-list of people's desires? How tasteless and infuriating? Let MCA do his thing. He knows how to write and he knows how to write maturely. Let the man do his job and stop clamoring for this nonsense.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Jasede

[jarpie]

But all that said, this is THEIR game so we should NOT make demands and argue them endlessly with the same exact arguments which we've seen so many times before.

 

With such attitude, dear friend, I recommend you to logout from this forum and delete your account. After all, it's their game, and you shouldn't discuss it.

 

Regarding topic. I want romances. But I'm against 'DA' style romances. All NPCs should have prereqs to be romanceable! And they should be hard as stone. No more 'I will love you no matter if you are male or female or elf of dwarf'.

 

I didn't say we shouldn't discuss the game and give ideas but I've seen so many messages in these forums where people are basicly demanding that devs do what they want.

 

By large fans don't know what they want and if they give to everyone's demands the game will be a mess.

 

We can give them ideas, our opionions and feedback, but that should be it. The devs knows much better than any of the fans what the game needs and how it should be done.

 

This is exactly what I meant with wasting resources, if they say "Yes, there will be romances" then there's gonna be people demanding romances for every possible combination and it takes away the time from writing other content for the said companions.

 

 

 

I don't know why this is so complicated to understand? People generally ask for 2 types of relationships ,straight and gay. Please explain all these other types of relationship combinations I am unaware of that people are demanding.

 

Let's see... straight romances male -> female, female -> male, gay romances male -> male and female -> female so that's four companions out of the eight unless you want two companions both bi-sexual but then people would complain and demand that they want unique romances for all of those possibilities.

 

Okay I see where you get your number from, I agree. We should have ( the first part is always the main character)

• 2 x Straight relationships: Male - Female and Female - Male
  
• 2 x Gay relationships : Male-Male and Female-Female
  

Thats not too hard to implement I hope ? Other games have done it successfully

 

And which games exactly?

[Jasede]

Here comes the laundry-list of tasteless Bioware romances.

[Infinitron]

Josh Sawyer on romance: http://www.rpgwatch....hread.php?t=953

 

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

 

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.

 

That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.

 

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

 

And just for fun, here's Bioware writer Patrick Weekes' somewhat amusing reaction to that: http://www.rpgwatch....98&postcount=32

Edited October 17, 2012 by Infinitron

[Loranc]

Keep (br)omances away from my RPG. You want a dating simulator go to Bioware. You want a LARP sim, go to Bethesda. You want Leisure Suit Larry in RPG form, go to CDPR. You want a RPG stay here and can the talk about romances. PS:T style bitter sweet character interactions or at a stretch the 'no sex' style of BG flirty banter are all that should be in PE.

Just a tip; your arguments and opinions will probably be better received if you at least attempt to explain and justify them rather than just stating them and telling people to accept them.

 

Well that's my OPINION and there's no need to explain or justify it but I've had a dozen years or putting up with flaccid dating and hiking simulators and when we finally have a tiny hope that things can change, the Bioware brigade descends to try and hijack another game with the hope of turning it another of the conveyor belt forgettable products that they are enamoured with. They tried it with Wasteland 2, but Brian isn't exactly in the mood to take such things, so they now moved here thinking that Obsidian is more 'mainstream' and thus more succeptible to such pressure. These people would like nothing more than making every RPG's most crucial decision be deciding whether to shag the officer with a hot ass but cold exterior or the homely, awkward girl with freckles.

 

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

 

Umm.... what? Bioware had hiking simulators and dating simulators? ..... Where? Not to mention DAO and ME are still two of the most critically acclaimed rpgs, people still boast, talk, and play these games (include NWN 2 in that.) So not sure.. that they're really forgettable, though I do agree that the 'sex' cut scenes were unnecessary. And somehow... romance now =sex again... of course. It seems another person has been claimed with the idea that Romance must = sex must = cut scene must = major part of the game syndrome. There is a doctor somewhere... here for you, with a nice shot of wake up! You need to unlearn all you have learned and look back at the romance in Planescape Torment, BG2, and stop focusing all your hatred on what Publishers did to the gaming community. Obsidian is not publishing this game they are developing it, we the backers are publishing it... sort of. We payed for it anyways, that's the point.

[Lurky]

People are suggesting that if you include Romances there would be "far too many combinations"

 

I am merely saying that only 4 combinations should be needed to keep almost all people happy.

 

Ah, but then people complain that they only have one choice for their preferred combination, and that if they don't like the character or the way the romance is executed they have no options. So, the only way to keep almost all people happy would be to provide several distinct options of personality and romance execution for each combination (but you can't go too wild with romance variance, because if some characters have happy romances and others have tragic ones people are going to be jealous). And some people still won't be happy; they'll find that they like the personality and the romance of a character that is unavailable to them but available for other PCs, and they'll campaign to make it available to their preferred PC option "because it can be done (with a good dose of fanwank)". You can see where this is going.

 

You can't please everyone. You have to draw the line somewhere. A basic "one option for each combination" might seem like a good place to draw the line, but I guarantee you that it will not make "almost all people happy". Because that's impossible.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Lurky

[Mrakvampire]

Josh Sawyer on romance: http://www.rpgwatch....hread.php?t=953

 

And just for fun, here's Bioware writer Patrick Weekes' somewhat amusing reaction to that: http://www.rpgwatch....98&postcount=32

 

It's hard choice, but I tend to agree here with Patrick - but it's really 'close call'.

The more choices we have in the game - the better. Romance - is a type of choice, basically. But it should be done well, as other things in the game.

[Crusty]

You would be right... if we were talking about movies or books. But we are talking about videogames. Let me explain.

In books and movies the audience is passive. You have to read or watch something that the author wants to tell you. After that you can judge if that theme (or message) was worth your time, if you agree with the author and stuff like that. In that kind of environment "giving what the audience wants" is a bad thing because destroys the artistic freedom of the author and always turns out in boring and cheap stories.

 

But games are different. In games the audience is not passive, the players are the active force that drives the story forward. As the story goes on they make choices that change what happens, they shape their own experience. If the developers don't embrace this concept (which by the way is what makes games different from other kind of media as a form of art) then they create an interactive movie where the player has to fight his way thourgh dungeons (like in RPGs) or solve puzzles (like in graphic adventure games) to see how the story goes on. This is what every true RPG fan hates because limits freedom and doesn't take advantage of the strenghts of the media: the ability to provide interactive experiences.

 

What I want to say is that the developers should give the players the possibility to shape their own experience with their actions. This doesn't mean "including romance stories for the sake of having them", it means allowing the people who want to roleplay a romantic character to be free to do just that. If the developers think that spending time with romance stories is something that should have negative consequences within the world and the story they are want to create (i.e.: you shouldn't waste time having sex with your companion while the monsters are conquering the world) they should add some negative consequences within the gameplay. But limiting the player freedom by erasing romance stories is just a pure loss.

 

That is great and all, but you've simulatenously missed my point and proven it at the same time. Maybe you should read it again.

 

You're arguing for romances not because they have any specific narrative or thematic importance, but as a game feature for the purposes of wish fulfillment.

 

Also, you're confusing plot with narrative thematics. Whereas games are able to have non-linear plots unlike the layout of typical films, the prevailing themes of a game's narrative can still be present regardless of plot divergence and player initiative.

 

An example: Planescape: Torment.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Crusty

[villain of the story]

Okay I see where you get your number from, I agree. We should have ( the first part is always the main character)

• 2 x Straight relationships: Male - Female and Female - Male
  
• 2 x Gay relationships : Male-Male and Female-Female
  

Thats not too hard to implement I hope ? Other games have done it successfully

 

God, romances should be included when they are appropriate, not as an arithmetic function.

 

People are suggesting that if you include Romances there would be "far too many combinations"

 

I am merely saying that only 4 combinations should be needed to keep almost all people happy.

 

Not enough. I want every combination of those plus transgenders plus all the races plus all the cultures. Don't want to give a message by leaving out some of them now, do we?

 

 

I don't hate dislike romance the way it was in PST but I HATE it the way it was in Bioware games in general where characters exist merely to appease the player's and only the player's sexual preferences and don't have their own individual integrity where all it takes to bed a character is to play the ridiculously gimmicky gamist system to "unlock" "sex". No one calling himself liberal or progressive big on social justice or whatever should support that kind of disgusting gimmicky tokenist attitude towards romance, sex and maturity in general. BioWarian Romance is the antithesis of these things.

 

Look at Fallout: New Vegas. There is a wide spectrum of representation of various sexual orientations and though you can attempt to flirt, or in Biowarian terms, "to romance" some of them, you don't get to "sex" anyone because there are greater objectives which the characters recognise and most importantly, they have individual integrity. They won't bend over just because you are the player and must be appeased to, to boost your ego and provide a false sense of feel-good. They don't exist to appease the player, they exist on their own for their own reasons and had you not talked to them extensively, you wouldn't even know of their sexual orientation.

 

That is how it should be done. And that is an Obsidian title.

[Rahelron]

That's my explanation my friend: once you start on that road the last decade has shown that it can end in only one way. The focus and effort of the game changes and trivial things like romances(and house decorating)suddenly get pushed to the forefront and take away from other aspects. ME is the most extreme example as the actual 'save the galaxy' plot was overtaken very early on by the whole crew romance thing and the need to decorate your cabin with fish and toy spacecraft.

 

How much time do you think it took Bioware to create 10 spaceship models (which by the way are the main ship models just shrinked) the to include in the capitan's cabin? Those things don't take away time from the developers. If you were really concerned about such problems you should have complained about the whole Kickstarter prize system. Do you know how much time will take to collect all the NPC data sent by the backers and cram it into the game in a passable lore-friendly manner?

 

If you want the developers to focus on player agency and player freedom you shouldn't complain about romance stories, because they give more freedom and more agency to the player. You should go in the gameplay forum and start asking to shut down some of the 11 classes and to avoid taking too much time into the combat system development. That's one thing that takes away a lot of time and resources, not some well written romance story.

[jarpie]

I have to ask a question that why romance-relationship would be deeper than what I suggested: A "Brothers in Arms" of type camaraderie without romances? What makes romances more deeper than relationship like that?

 

I've never seen a game where that is really done well, in basicly almost all of the RPGs I've played companions are basicly your lackies, not your equal (or close to that).

 

So why should romances get foreseat instead of that kind of friendship, since it's also almost never done well?

[Mrakvampire]

I don't hate dislike romance the way it was in PST but I HATE it the way it was in Bioware games in general where characters exist merely to appease the player's and only the player's sexual preferences and don't have their own individual integrity where all it takes to bed a character is to play the ridiculously gimmicky gamist system to "unlock" "sex". No one calling himself liberal or progressive big on social justice or whatever should support that kind of disgusting gimmicky tokenist attitude towards romance, sex and maturity in general. BioWarian Romance is the antithesis of these things.

 

You should choose your words more wisely. BG and BG2 - are Bioware's games. And there would be no PST or IWD without BG.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Mrakvampire

[Hatori1181]

As much as I'd like to see romances be an option, I find myself torn after reading a lot of this discussion.

 

On one hand, even mediocre romance dialogue (in my opinion, this includes DA:O and the ME series. Not great, but not fanfic bad, either.) adds a depth and connection to both the player character and the NPC. Speaking for myself, I cared about my Shepard and Grey Warden characters and what they both wanted. I'm glad the option was there, and if I had chosen to, or if I thought the options for romance didn't fit the RP for the character in my head, I could have ignored it.

 

On the other hand... There's the stigma that Bioware has created regarding romance options in gaming. I remember the explosion that happened when DA:O came out. I don't want that kind of crap associated with PE. I've seen people claim that they would take back their pledges if romances are implemented, and while that's seems like a knee-jerk reaction, that's the kind of fear and revulsion that some people have about the subject.

 

In the end, I just want the best damned game that Obsidian can make. If it does have romances, I hope they are optional or toggles, I hope they are well written and believable, and I hope that either way, people will respect Obsidian's decision.

[villain of the story]

Josh Sawyer on romance: http://www.rpgwatch....hread.php?t=953

 

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

 

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.

 

That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.

 

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

 

And just for fun, here's Bioware writer Patrick Weekes' somewhat amusing reaction to that: http://www.rpgwatch....98&postcount=32

 

AMEN!

 

Now, if you want Bioware romances, well, knock on Bioware's door, perhaps? Not every game needs to be dragged down by the same kind of sexist tokenist drivel.

 

However, I'd LOVE it if you could "romance" companions and they committed suicide or left your party because of how cookie-cutter flat and boring the player character was.

[GarfunkeL]

Umm.... what? Bioware had hiking simulators and dating simulators? ..... Where? Not to mention DAO and ME are still two of the most critically acclaimed rpgs,

Yes yes, let the dark side flow through you. 6 trillion flies cannot be wrong, manure is excellent sustenance. No point arguing about details or specifics, if lots of people like something, it must be good! I wonder why Justin Bieber isn't singing opera? He must be an excellent singer, all that critical acclaim, sold-out venues and millions of fans.

 

So not sure.. that they're really forgettable, though I do agree that the 'sex' cut scenes were unnecessary. And somehow... romance now =sex again... of course. It seems another person has been claimed with the idea that Romance must = sex must = cut scene must = major part of the game syndrome. There is a doctor somewhere... here for you, with a nice shot of wake up! You need to unlearn all you have learned and look back at the romance in Planescape Torment, BG2, and stop focusing all your hatred on what Publishers did to the gaming community. Obsidian is not publishing this game they are developing it, we the backers are publishing it... sort of. We payed for it anyways, that's the point.

But romance in BG2 did lead to sex. Every Bioware romance leads to sex - from BG2 to ME3 and all the games between. And make no mistake, the Biodrone-brigade here is not asking for MCA-style "romance", they are asking for more Bioware-style "romance". Say no to that crap already, don't apologize to them.

Edited October 17, 2012 by GarfunkeL

[evdk]

I don't hate dislike romance the way it was in PST but I HATE it the way it was in Bioware games in general where characters exist merely to appease the player's and only the player's sexual preferences and don't have their own individual integrity where all it takes to bed a character is to play the ridiculously gimmicky gamist system to "unlock" "sex". No one calling himself liberal or progressive big on social justice or whatever should support that kind of disgusting gimmicky tokenist attitude towards romance, sex and maturity in general. BioWarian Romance is the antithesis of these things.

 

You should choose your words more wisely. BG and BG2 - are Bioware's games. And there would be no PST or IWD without BG.

What does that have to do with anything he's written?!?

[Loranc]

Josh Sawyer on romance: http://www.rpgwatch....hread.php?t=953

 

And just for fun, here's Bioware writer Patrick Weekes' somewhat amusing reaction to that: http://www.rpgwatch....98&postcount=32

 

It's hard choice, but I tend to agree here with Patrick - but it's really 'close call'.

The more choices we have in the game - the better. Romance - is a type of choice, basically. But it should be done well, as other things in the game.

 

It's kind of funny but Sawyer pretty much stated what I stated in this thread. Sick of the black screen fade outs, the unnecessary sex (I think you could have a three way in DAO with Isabella and zevran. Did anyone find that necessary?) Not even sure why that was in the game...... or you could turn Leliana evil, keep her on as a mistress and get married still. (Did they honestly think this somehow added to the game?) And I love his final statement though i'm still going to nitpick it.. he tossed out harem anime which would be one guy and a bunch of girls that was to be with him or one girl and a bunch of guys that want to be with her. Not sure... what games Sawyer has written for but in all the crpgs I've played I've never ran into Harem Anime in my rpg. So i'm not sure what he's referring to here.

 

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.