pack animals or beasts of burden

[Michael_Galt]

I really do want a mule. Or a giant turtle or something. That would be awesome. Or maybe a giant land crab, like in the Way of Kings...

[Osvir]

Also found this:

 

A giant turtle would be awesome as well :D I recall Obsidian talking something about having a "Wisp" following you around, a great resource for modders a pack mule is rather trivial (I'm either for or against, it would be cool to have a pack mule though), but just having that wisp there opens up so many doors :D

[Sacred_Path]

Just replaying Daggerfall, and having a cart is good fun. But in PE we'll have a stronghold, and that should take care of those weight concerns. Now, mountable horses and mounted combat, that would be another thing altogether. But that's not going to happen.

[Osvir]

Aumaua!

Edited November 3, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

I can totally see a turtle (though no mount :/):

[Michael_Galt]

That picture is so awesome. Looks like that dude is living the life.

[Osvir]

That picture is so awesome. Looks like that dude is living the life.

 

If not a pack mule perhaps a story driven NPC/traveling merchant inspirational?

[Osvir]

Aumaua!

 

 

I meant this link. Both are related though (one is a discussion about Aumaua being river rats and the other more murlocy/sharky/reptilian it seems).

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't have an opinion either way--if it's in the game, I'll use it, if it isn't, I won't. The only game I've played that had an actually interesting mechanic for this was, wait for it, DAGGERFALL. No, I'm not kidding. You could buy a horse and a cart (and a ship and a house IIRC), and transfer stuff directly to the cart by going back to the dungeon entrance. It worked for the type of game Daggerfall was, i.e. 95% procedural and also since 95% of the gameplay also took place inside dungeons. Does that mean it'll be a suitable or desirable mechanic for this game? Your guess is as good as mine at this stage.

[Osvir]

I don't have an opinion either way--if it's in the game, I'll use it, if it isn't, I won't*. The only game I've played that had an actually interesting mechanic for this was, wait for it, DAGGERFALL. No, I'm not kidding. You could buy a horse and a cart (and a ship and a house IIRC), and transfer stuff directly to the cart by going back to the dungeon entrance. It worked for the type of game Daggerfall was, i.e. 95% procedural and also since 95% of the gameplay also took place inside dungeons. Does that mean it'll be a suitable or desirable mechanic for this game?** Your guess is as good as mine at this stage.

 

* I agree, I'm somewhere in the middle.

 

** I think it could be very suitable if done right. Having a trusty loyal backpack/cart/wagon feels like every treasure hunter's/adventurer's greatest friend. There's often in stories someone carrying all the stuff, in Bilbo everyone carries their fair share of deal. I think another idea that fits in this thread in visual changes if having a full inventory with a big backpack on your back. Should the backpack be droppable (Shenmue 2 Let's Play, 1:40)? Having a pack mule is a tactical choice to manage your inventory with more difficulty.

 

Hmm as a mechanic I suspect there are two scenario's that would be best:

Scenario A, an invisible "loot bag" where all your party gear goes. This loot bag interface would be unlocked by doing a quest and attaining "loot bag", either it is a pack mule or a bag of holding, really it doesn't matter that much. There should be some indication that it exists though, and could be apparent during a "camp" session as a static creature. This scenario your Pack Mule would always be with you. It would be most efficient if your character has a limited inventory (which I feel could be an option, do I want a big inventory or a small inventory? I don't reckon it is hard to code either but what would I know not a programmer). So it would be a disadvantage not having it with you. In this scenario the creature would not follow you into dungeons and stay outside (cities as well).

Apparent Issue, having to walk between your Mule and Stores, or into Dungeons and Out just to micro-manage your inventory if they aren't allowed into cities.

Solution, having a Bag of Holding or having the Mule with you "in spirit" (invisible), letting it go with you.

Pro's with solution, you'd have an "extra stash of space to carry" (Torchlight) with you wherever you go.

At Camp, It would act as your "work station". Alchemy, upgrading gear (repairing gear you can do in field). If camping is time-based every on an in-game, camping "could be" leveling up but in a way like Terraria or Minecraft. The resources you gather in the world is what you use to get stronger.

 

Scenario B, an animation, an object/model in the game which follows you around, nothing fancy, walking and running animation. Perhaps 1 attack animation (it acts as generic "Monster AI 1" or "Monster AI 2" which you can regulate). Your Pack Mule would be able to be damaged and killed. Likewise, inventory would be limited on your characters.

Apparent Issue, your pack mule dying, and you've got no inventory and how can you grab ALL that stuff you just dropped. It'd definitely be a turn-taker in any story (Hero, Shadow of Colossus T-T), but mechanically it could be a chaotic element you just don't want to deal with.

Solution, playing more carefully really (unless the pack mule would have 1 HP and die all the time, then it would be bad design).

Pro's, immersion of being an adventurer in a more mature world.

At Camp, Like Scenario A.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Osvir

[Michael_Galt]

Yeah, I'm really hoping for option B. It just doesn't seem that difficult to accomplish, though admittedly more difficult than not changing anything, and it would be a nice feature. Hell, you even had the equivalent in Fallout, with your car. It automatically got parked (aka, "stabled") when you entered a city/village and it was obviously "followed" you as you traveled (provided you had enough energy cells).

 

Addressing the "but it could get killed" thing, you could even script it to "run for the hills" if you are ambushed or attacked, and then return once everything is copacetic. That's even "realistic", since that is what I would train my pack mule to do, so I wouldn't have to worry about it in those situations. So basically, in the event of those things happening, you see it "run off the screen". After it's over, it saunters on back (perhaps an in-game hour has to pass first, and maybe you use the "wait"/"advance time" option to expedite that). Perhaps you could even have a "special ability" or "item", to help you recall it, so that waiting wouldn't be necessary- the equivalent of a bird call.

 

I just really don't like the idea of all my party members constantly walking around with massive packs on their back. Would I do it if I had no choice? Sure. But if it was feasible for me to hire a porter or buy a pack animal, I would do that as soon as possible.

[Crusader_bin]

I selected "NO", "A little" and "Other".

 

I selected "NO" because the few games that had those were not my favorites, it feels a little bit "un-adventorus" to make a caravan (If I want an adventure I take nothing but my pants and my trusty stick, and sometimes I can do without pants).

 

I selected "A little" because you have to answer each question in a pool, and it's the closest to a "NO"

 

And finally I selected "Other" because If the feature was added, I would prefer it to be not a companion but a familliar/spell that you could summon or call that would quickly grab any item from the storage at your home/castle (or store it there) and after that quickly disapear. It could be either an imp, devil, cow or a woman, depending how much you can afford. And I think storing/retriving items should cost money.

[Osvir]

And I think storing/retriving items should cost money.

 

Interesting input generally throughout the post but wanted to address this because another idea popped up, namely:

 

Having a demon that you have to pay part of your soul or something. Like a "Devil Contract" of sorts, paying money seems odd unless properly explained. Who would I pay money too when I am in the middle of a forest with no settlement or target anywhere close by?

 

I selected "NO" because the few games that had those were not my favorites, it feels a little bit "un-adventorus" to make a caravan (If I want an adventure I take nothing but my pants and my trusty stick, and sometimes I can do without pants).

 

Also wish to respond to this, a wagon or a caravan is every adventurer's best friend. As I traveled (roadtrip) around America I met at first some people with a Bus, and it was our trusty caravan (until a piston blew through the engine 15 miles off of Iowa City ). When I later met other folks to travel with we had our trusty Millenium Falcon where we stashed all of our backpacks, clothes, gear for the road.

 

A traveler in an adventure setting like Baldur's Gate would benefit lots having a "wagon" or mule of sorts and would most likely have it with him/her to hoard gold (in an authentic and realistic setting). Or without it, the traveler would have a big backpack (that is still limited to only carry a certain amount).

 

When I think a limited/realistic inventory I am thinking of something like 1/5th of what 1 character can carry in Baldur's Gate:

* Scrolls would be able to be put in "Scroll Cases"

* Potions in "Potion Bags"

* Only one slot for quivers

* Wolf Pelts would stack at around 4 or 5

* You would be able to carry perhaps 2 extra armors in your backpack (apart from the one you are wearing)

* Weapons you carry would only be the ones you carry in your Quick-Slots.

* Herbs would be carried in Herb Bag

* A Wizard would be able to carry 2 Grimoires (One in hand, one hanging from a rope across the torso). And maybe a 3rd one in your backpack.

* Probably more but I suspect there is more that could be covered.

 

This guy/portrait reflects what kind of inventory size I would like to see (Not the actual inventory management presented in the picture).

Edited November 4, 2012 by Osvir

[TRX850]

I like the idea of bringing back realism to a cRPG, even if it means hiking back and forth between the wilderness and "Ye Olde Adventuring Shoppe" to sell all the crap I just looted from my vanquished foes.

 

But I was just reminded of the aggro that BG1&2 created with their no-matter-what-we-do-we're-gonna-cop-flak-for-this inventory system, which quickly led to community mods increasing the stacking properties of items and basically creating an unlimited inventory space despite the gameplay value of the OC.

 

One of the modders said the game shouldn't be a quest to manage your inventory. And he had a point. But there's a fine line here that should be considered. Realism, or abstract for the sake of immersive gameplay.

 

I don't think anyone will really know which way to go until the game is play-tested and results are published.

 

Maybe if there was less loot to fill up my inventory, I would no longer consider it a major problem.

 

I still like the mule and cart option though.

 

EDIT:

 

My point was, the inventory system should work well enough from scratch to disincentivize modding to circumvent perceived design flaws.

Edited November 4, 2012 by TRX850

[Crusader_bin]

This is pretty interresting. But games should not have systems that annoy players, just because they are logicall. The hardest thing to do is make it both logical (more or less) and fully satisfying. And yeah, I used the mod to carry 99 short swords in a stack. It didn't make much sense, but Big World mod introduced a lot of stuff that made the game interresting for one more playthrough (and with BGT mod, one is really enough for at least a year).

 

But back to the point, the stacking mods removed a lot of pointless trips from same location to the shop all over but it also reflects that people actually LIKE to hoard items like crazy. Given the possibility they would not only carry full golden plate armors but at least one billion pebbles stacked together. Or two stacks, if they had different colours. Look at Mass effect 1 - random loot all over. Mass Effect 2 - no loot at all, just fixed with certain weapons. For me, it was as If they just chopped big part of the game and threw it out the window (or the thrash, if you like to keep things clean).

 

Finding a golden solution between crazy ammounts of garbage (yay!) and realistic inventory managemant doesn't seem too easy. Only things that come to my mind is a pocket dimension like the one from BG2:ToB or bags of holding. Or the familliars (remember the Djin in a bottle that was a shopkeeper in BG2 - I think?). The concept of a camp that would have characters like those in Dragon Age is also viable. Few shopkeepers going after you have been used in many games. Not just DA2, anyone played Shadow Hearts 1 and 2? That's the kind of idea anyway, which can add a bit to the lore of the game at the same time.

[TRX850]

I used the Baldur's Gate Tutu mod, and more recently the Weidu mod for IWD2, but only after I'd played the OC a couple of times.

 

I think it's just a sign of the times that a player's attention span (or patience) is shortening. And I include myself in that comment.

 

Maybe there should just be built-in setup options for ease/difficulty factor that include a quickplay/realism slider. One uncaps the item stacking and the other doesn't. Maybe there should be some tradeoff if you choose the easy option?

 

The lesson here is you can't please everyone.

[Osvir]

This is pretty interresting. But games should not have systems that annoy players, just because they are logicall. The hardest thing to do is make it both logical (more or less) and fully satisfying. And yeah, I used the mod to carry 99 short swords in a stack. It didn't make much sense, but Big World mod introduced a lot of stuff that made the game interresting for one more playthrough (and with BGT mod, one is really enough for at least a year).

 

But back to the point, the stacking mods removed a lot of pointless trips from same location to the shop all over but it also reflects that people actually LIKE to hoard items like crazy. Given the possibility they would not only carry full golden plate armors but at least one billion pebbles stacked together. Or two stacks, if they had different colours. Look at Mass effect 1 - random loot all over. Mass Effect 2 - no loot at all, just fixed with certain weapons. For me, it was as If they just chopped big part of the game and threw it out the window (or the thrash, if you like to keep things clean).

 

Finding a golden solution between crazy ammounts of garbage (yay!) and realistic inventory managemant doesn't seem too easy. Only things that come to my mind is a pocket dimension like the one from BG2:ToB or bags of holding. Or the familliars (remember the Djin in a bottle that was a shopkeeper in BG2 - I think?). The concept of a camp that would have characters like those in Dragon Age is also viable. Few shopkeepers going after you have been used in many games. Not just DA2, anyone played Shadow Hearts 1 and 2? That's the kind of idea anyway, which can add a bit to the lore of the game at the same time.

 

In this thread we are discussing an armor system which would/could be "upgradeable". No inventory management regarding armor which is a step in the right direction towards a more restricted inventory. You wouldn't need to bother picking up "300" different armors for your group. If you have a leather pouch you could carry "herbs" in it, a leather belt to carry 5 potions. A backpack with treasure/weapons. Avalon (first post, first picture following the given link) seems to have something like that inventory I'm trying to envision.

 

I think that a restricted inventory with specific loot that "builds" your character (Much like a Minecraft game works) together with a Camp (Safehouse) could be an elegant solution.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Osvir

[Crusader_bin]

Yes, that is one way to go at it, but that's sad a bit for me. I'm a fan of old-style garbage collection. I kept pouches of gems in Baldurs Gate just for the sake of having pouches of gems in my inventory (doh) I don't like finding chest with 500 gold as much as I enjoy selling Crappy Leather Armors of Uslessness -10 for 1 gb at a time... There is nothing elegant about hoarding. It's a disease, ask any dragon. But I just like managing equipment. New games neglect that, like Dragon Age 2, but there are new games like Skyrim where you could just carry 100 apples and a bucket if you want.

[Michael_Galt]

This is pretty interresting. But games should not have systems that annoy players, just because they are logicall. The hardest thing to do is make it both logical (more or less) and fully satisfying. And yeah, I used the mod to carry 99 short swords in a stack. It didn't make much sense, but Big World mod introduced a lot of stuff that made the game interresting for one more playthrough (and with BGT mod, one is really enough for at least a year).

 

But back to the point, the stacking mods removed a lot of pointless trips from same location to the shop all over but it also reflects that people actually LIKE to hoard items like crazy. Given the possibility they would not only carry full golden plate armors but at least one billion pebbles stacked together. Or two stacks, if they had different colours. Look at Mass effect 1 - random loot all over. Mass Effect 2 - no loot at all, just fixed with certain weapons. For me, it was as If they just chopped big part of the game and threw it out the window (or the thrash, if you like to keep things clean).

 

I'm all for "stacking", because that is just about organization and "classification". I mean, in regards to the gems thing, most gems aren't very large, so it really isn't "unrealistic" to imagine putting 100 of them in the same bag. When it comes to potions, who knows? Some might be highly "concentrated" and so, take up little space (like 5-hour energies...). I mean, "realistically", if you are organizing things, you tend to group them, since it just makes sense.

 

I just feel this is the easiest "realistic" answer to the inventory question. I mean, 1 donkey + 1 cart = hundreds of pounds of gear. And you don't necessarily have to organize the same way to put something in a cart, vice a pack. If anyone has packed a pack before, you can get a lot to fit, but it is all about using the most efficient packing scheme to utilize all the space. With a big, 6'x8' cart, you don't have to do nearly as much mental gymnastics to make things "fit", since there is more aggregate space available. Plus, you hypothetically have bags you can place on the donkey/ram/water buffalo itself, which adds yet more storage.

 

I'm not against "bags of holding", but that is completely dependent upon the universe. If they say that is a super common use of magic and even serfs have them, great. If they say that they are very difficult to make and are highly coveted... That obviously changes things. And if they go with the latter, and don't make "pack animals", we are now left high and dry when it comes to a "realistic" way to address maintaining manageable inventories. THAT is my fear.

 

I didn't like ME2 for that very reason. I liked making my customized weapons and armor, which I configured based on the mission. If I expected to fight lots of tech-based enemies, I likely got ride of biotic defense, increased shields and increased accuracy and biotic damage. If I thought it was going to be mostly organic stuff, I did the opposite- decreased shields in favor of speed or damage resistance and decreased accuracy for higher firing rate and/or damage. And if I wasn't sure, then I split the difference to try to make sure I was able to deal with either contingency. It's like in BG- if you knew you were going to be facing a bunch of undead, you stocked up on level-draining protection, made sure your priests had spells to target undead, and distributed out the anti-undead weapons you had in your party as efficiently as you could. And then they made it simpler...

[Crusader_bin]

I think that if we talk about mules or other storage animals I wouldn't like to see them walking around the map or worse yet manage it on top of my characters. It would be better if they were stationary I think, on map entry. Than again, a caravan of merchants or some crazy hermit offering you a trade would not be such a happy occurance if you normally had a mule everywhere anyway. I know I didn't like mule in Dungeon Siege. But speaking of animals, I'd rather see horses, stables, etc. Not active riding mind you, but seeing them in stables and allowing long travel and affecting the speed on world map maybe? How many fantasy books you read didn't had horses And a thing like saddle would allow some storage maybe? If horses would be present in all areas at start location that is, and not just main towns.

[Osvir]

Not active riding mind you, but seeing them in stables and allowing long travel and affecting the speed on world map maybe?

 

Yes! Totally :D Instead of "Traveling took 8 hours" it could be "4 hours". I read something in one update where Obsidian was saying "You will be able to teleport across the map" which gives me the idea that a Wizard in your party might make it so. Making the "Dimension Door" spell be globalized? Flying "mounts" in this fashion (lowering the time it takes to travel from one location to another).

[jezz555]

I gotta say, it would be cool and fairly original if you and your party could ride horses, when travelling through large areas, I'm a sucker for mounts in games.

[Michael_Galt]

Shameless bump.  Also, has there been any word on this?  I don't recall seeing any confirming or denying...

[Lephys]

Methinks supposedly there was some official word about there not-being pack-animals that will travel around with you? At least, not as a controllable, interactable, able-to-die-if-you're-not-careful thing.

 

The Deep Stash could very well be represented by some immortal pack animal(s), always stationed at every rest spot you come to.

[Messier-31]

Turning my adventuring party into what, a caravan? Pass