Randomized dungeons / environments / smart monsters ...

[rwg]

Diablo III replayability was boring. The dungeon layout and critters placement was always the same (and loot had no sets or unique characteristics).

I understand that hand designed layouts may look/feel somewhat better, if so make the first time in the dungeon the hand tuned version and then randomized subsequently. At least allow some areas to be swapped and rotated. Not every boss or mini-boss monster need to behind a set of fancy doors or special entry, makes me more fearful if you are never sure what lies ahead.

 

And lets not have everything static, some wandering monsters or groups of monsters that we hide from or engage as we wish make the environment more dynamic. Perhaps some of the wandering monsters(Kobolds, gel cubes, or something to fearsome avoid altogether) are noisy (sing a song or instrument, growling, stomping, banging weapons on the wall, fighting other monsters or among themselves because they are bored. So we can detect them before they arrive, or they are sleeping, or eating a meal, playing cards, and so are initially stunned. Or they try to sneak up on the players (esp while engaged with other opponents). Perhaps opponents have a bell, pull cord, horn or gong that summons reinforcements unless players are able to stop the runners. And traps are always interesting. Perhaps your rouge spots them (or you find a map that marks a few) and then the trap appears for all players to avoid. The ability to push opponents or players back (into a trap, flame, over an edge). Perhaps mages can set temporary magic traps and players can lure(barbarian taunt, etc) monsters into the traps.

 

Do some monsters deeper in the dungeon level hear about others encounters(if runner monsters get away, tell friendly monsters, and join forces with) and so no longer fall for players old tricks.

 

intelligent monsters target mages and healers, sneak up behind, yell down hall to friendlies, secret passages and doors that open behind players with back stabbers, or oil lobbers. Block escape doors behind players.

 

A bit of dungeon ecology, a monster nursery/hive, mushroom food growing room, weapon crafting room, barracks, slavers, etc.

[True_Spike]

I cannot stress *how* against randomized levels I actually am. Not a single game did it good, the levels always feel subpar to their hand-crafted counterparts. I don't want a single stone placed automatically, I want every single item, every single trap, every single room, every detail placed by a level designer, so that every little thing actually serves a purpose and together they make a coherent whole.

 

It's not a steatlh game, either. While I'm fine with some of the monsters moving (patrolling?), playing hide & seek serves no purpose in a game akin to BG or P:T. I want the world around me to be bursting with sound, all the time; I don't want to look for and concentrate on the sound of a bell-wielding troll.

 

Secret passages, I like.

Edited October 6, 2012 by True_Spike

[diablo169]

Randomized is not something everyone likes, I for example like replaying the older crpgs and knowing what to expect. If it's an option you can turn off fair enough, otherwise no from me.

[DocDoomII]

No randomization please.

I just ask for no area recycling like BW did in Dragon Age II.

[trulez]

No randomization.

[LadyCrimson]

I like some randomization in action-rpg's where the main purpose of the game is to kill kill kill and loot loot loot...and then reload, do it again, and loot some more. In those cases it adds a little bit of variety to the same old loot hunt routine, if the game is designed around such.

 

But for a more story-oriented rpg, I don't believe randomization fits, and it detracts from the sense of a more intricately defined scenario of moving through a world with your actions having an effect on the world. Having Frodo need to travel to Mt. Doom but having Mt. Doom always show up in a different location on the map would be ... well ... I wouldn't like it.

[Jaesun]

Very well done encounter design > random.

[Ieo]

Yeah, considering how much I want a mega dungeon along the same lines as Durlag's Tower, "random" really cannot work there--unless we're talking about the trap level that required a good thief.

 

World random? Uh. I'd rather have pathing enemies instead.

[DocDoomII]

I just thought of a single instance of random being good.

 

Random encounters while traveling. While having a good set of unique and well done random encounters (fallout much?) is good, I don't want to get to a point where there are no more encounters. Thus if there were some randomized encounters, the unique ones could 'last longer'.

The random encounters should be better than those of baldur's gate though. They were way too repetitive.

[ogrezilla]

random is better the more combat oriented the game is. And honestly, its usually best when killing "trash" mobs is fun. For a tactical game I would rather the encounters be carefully designed.

[Shevek]

I dunno, I am not a huge fan of randomized dungeons. I mean, it could work but that would add dramatically to the development time. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

Also, the IE games were about well crafted encounters and locales that were painstakingly made. A randomly generated space just would not seem right.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Shevek

[Archmage Silver]

I'm against random dungeons and recycled areas. Handcrafted, unique locales always make the most lasting impression on me.

[moridin84]

Against randomization too.

 

This is going to be a tactical RPG so I think that hand-crafted dungeons with hand-crafted encounters would be best.

 

The patrol monsters thing might be cool though. I would rather not have to kill EVERY SINGLE monster in the whole damn dungeon. I don't think it would be practical if you have a large party but with a small or even single member party... I think it would be nice if you were able to avoid fights.

[Archmage Silver]

Against randomization too.

 

This is going to be a tactical RPG so I think that hand-crafted dungeons with hand-crafted encounters would be best.

 

The patrol monsters thing might be cool though. I would rather not have to kill EVERY SINGLE monster in the whole damn dungeon. I don't think it would be practical if you have a large party but with a small or even single member party... I think it would be nice if you were able to avoid fights.

Rogues with stealth and some sort of primitive flashbang grenades could be helpful if you just wanted to make a mad rush for it.

[moridin84]

Against randomization too.

 

This is going to be a tactical RPG so I think that hand-crafted dungeons with hand-crafted encounters would be best.

 

The patrol monsters thing might be cool though. I would rather not have to kill EVERY SINGLE monster in the whole damn dungeon. I don't think it would be practical if you have a large party but with a small or even single member party... I think it would be nice if you were able to avoid fights.

Rogues with stealth and some sort of primitive flashbang grenades could be helpful if you just wanted to make a mad rush for it.

I want to be able to dodge patrols, not literally sneak past them.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

No to randomization of dungeons/environment.

[rjshae]

Randomization would be okay if there were an in-universe mechanism to explain it (such as magic). Otherwise, I'd rather they didn't.

[Archmage Silver]

Against randomization too.

 

This is going to be a tactical RPG so I think that hand-crafted dungeons with hand-crafted encounters would be best.

 

The patrol monsters thing might be cool though. I would rather not have to kill EVERY SINGLE monster in the whole damn dungeon. I don't think it would be practical if you have a large party but with a small or even single member party... I think it would be nice if you were able to avoid fights.

Rogues with stealth and some sort of primitive flashbang grenades could be helpful if you just wanted to make a mad rush for it.

I want to be able to dodge patrols, not literally sneak past them.

Hm... how about a rogue drawing attention by throwing something down a corridor and the patrol running off in that direction while the rest of the party (visible) casually strolls by. I know, I know, I'm obsessed with stealth maneuvers.

[moridin84]

Against randomization too.

 

This is going to be a tactical RPG so I think that hand-crafted dungeons with hand-crafted encounters would be best.

 

The patrol monsters thing might be cool though. I would rather not have to kill EVERY SINGLE monster in the whole damn dungeon. I don't think it would be practical if you have a large party but with a small or even single member party... I think it would be nice if you were able to avoid fights.

Rogues with stealth and some sort of primitive flashbang grenades could be helpful if you just wanted to make a mad rush for it.

I want to be able to dodge patrols, not literally sneak past them.

Hm... how about a rogue drawing attention by throwing something down a corridor and the patrol running off in that direction while the rest of the party (visible) casually strolls by. I know, I know, I'm obsessed with stealth maneuvers.

Like I said, I'm thinking from the perspective of a small or one person group. Don't want have to play or have a rogue to do it.

 

Though so suggestion would be an interesting alternative too.

[Radres]

Randomization makes game balancing difficult and could undermine story telling. Small amount of randomization is fine for loot but important items should always be at the same spot.

 

I want P: E to replayable for it's story, arching outcomes and characters not for it's loot or dungeons.

[Sensuki]

I love randomization in ARPGs.

 

I'm not a massive fan of randomization in RPGs like this. Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 level of randomization only please.

[old school fool]

Balanced, engaging, challenging and satisfying randomization is always best. However, the quest scripting in story RPG's pretty much always has to be fixed, and that usually means that level design has to be fixed as well, simply because the development budget is just not big enough to allow the resources to be thrown at randomization of these elements. That's the great tragedy of story RPG's, that the sales are usually just not big enough to allow for the sort of randomization that would allow for an endlessly fresh game experience. The last cRPG to seriously attempt universal randomization of quests and levels was Daggerfall, and the bugs that result from such an approach pretty much always end up being deal-breakers.

 

And Obsidian really seems to excel at the meticulously plotted and designed element of RPGs. Randomization has never been a particular focus for them. And they've gotten better and better over the years at making fixed encounters that have the appearance of randomization, or that can lead to emergent gameplay. The things I can think of that would helpfully augment their designed encounters in fixed dungeons would be a random encounter system while traveling in the overworld that had a good amount of variety (more than BG2, if possible), and a wandering or patrolling monster system in dungeons, in addition to the set and scripted encounters. A mix of the set encounters and the patrolling monsters would probably not be too expensive and difficult to balance, while keeping things different and fresh enough across multiple playthroughs.

[Lv99Wizard]

I generally agree that randomization wouldn't easily fit in my perfect P:E final product. I do think it is necessary to have a chance of random encounters upon resting in a dungeon. It will also work well, I think, in the endless paths. Maybe the entire dungeon or maybe (more likely) on just one of the levels. That way, there is always the element of surprise on level 3. Or maybe even randomise the random level so you never know when to expect it. That could be fun.

[Tamerlane]

Randomized environments work in Age of Empires, X-Com, and Diablo 2.

 

Not so much PE, I think. Replayability should come less from elements of the game being different, and more from you having different ways of dealing with the same element.

[Labadal]

The Mega Dungeon could be randomized, and maybe some minor dungeons that are not super relevant to the story. But I wouldn't like to see randomized story dungeons.