Update #16: Reward Updates, Combat with Tim, Mods, and the Mega Dungeon Grows!

[Darth Trethon]

"infinitely recastable low-level spellls with no cooldown!"

 

That sounds like a major potential for abuse if I'm grasping the concept correctly. If that system was used in D&D, you would have mages spamming spells like fireball every single round non stop. L0L Or casting stoneskin repeatedly.Or about basically having perma haste. All three are relatively low level spells and if say a reasonably high level wizard could literally spam them every round.. that is just dangerously asking for severe oh-ohness.

 

Don't like the idea at all as described...

 

 

Pets: I dunno about that.. Why have useless 'pets' in the game when you can just go with familiars, animal companies, and other useful stuff.

 

The other combat stuff sounds awesome. And, hardcover strategy guide sounds right on.

 

Abuse? No. Should the warrior have a recharge time before he can swing the sword again? Should the warrior need to reequip/replace his armor after every hit? Or rather should the warrior's armor only protect against a hit or two and then have the warrior wait a recharge period before replacing it? Haste just increases movement speed, big deal....wizards should have some benefits too. So why shouldn't a wizard/cipher have a basic attack that is always available? Seriously people, please think before you post.

[Volourn]

Take a gander at the DnD spell list - there are plenty of low level spells ripe for abuse if they could be spammed non stopped and weren't limited to per day castings. How bout lightning bolt, improved invisibility, flame arrow, and likely a host of others I'm missing.

 

P.S. I know the game isn't using DnD spell lists but since they're likely to cover many DnDisque spells.. major abuse cna be coming...

 

 

"buse? No. Should the warrior have a recharge time before he can swing the sword again? Should the warrior need to reequip/replace his armor after every hit? Or rather should the warrior's armor only protect against a hit or two and then have the warrior wait a recharge period before replacing it? Haste just increases movement speed, big deal....wizards should have some benefits too. So why shouldn't a wizard/cipher have a basic attack that is always available? Seriously people, please think before you post."

 

Are you REALLY comapring a warrior's sword to a wizard's fireball spell? ARE U KIDDIN' ME!

 

The wizard is alreayd more pwoerful than a iwizard - it doesn't need a helping hand. A mage's basic every round attack should not outdamge a warrior. In this system, a mage would never need to carry a weapon or be vulnerible sicne they just spam their defensive spells as well as their offensive spells. LAME

 

Seriously people, think before you post.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Volourn

[Inannachan]

Or perhaps a floating skull for a pet?

[Bloody Hypocrite]

I believe Tim mentioned that there was still a limit on low level spells. Even if there's a basic magic attack, it just replaces giving your mage a sling as a default attack.

[stkaye]

I agree that spellcasters can get bored, particularly in the early game, running out of cool class-specific things to do.

 

I don't agree that the way to deal with this is to make low-level spells infinitely reusable. The opening game, where first level spells are all you've got, could see mages becoming too powerful, and it will make scaling the power of these useful first-level spells later (a la magic missile) a headache.

 

An alternative would be to provide class-specific magic abilities that are specifically designed to be reusable, but are never preferable to a specialised, memorised spell alternative. So a selection of basic magic blasts that can throw enemies around or damage/stun groups/individuals. These options could even be customisable as part of the character creation process - a fire mage could get a fire ability, etc.

[metiman]

"infinitely recastable low-level spellls with no cooldown!"

 

That sounds like a major potential for abuse if I'm grasping the concept correctly. If that system was used in D&D, you would have mages spamming spells like fireball every single round non stop. L0L Or casting stoneskin repeatedly.Or about basically having perma haste. All three are relatively low level spells and if say a reasonably high level wizard could literally spam them every round.. that is just dangerously asking for severe oh-ohness.

 

Don't like the idea at all as described...

 

 

Pets: I dunno about that.. Why have useless 'pets' in the game when you can just go with familiars, animal companies, and other useful stuff.

 

The other combat stuff sounds awesome. And, hardcover strategy guide sounds right on.

 

Abuse? No. Should the warrior have a recharge time before he can swing the sword again? Should the warrior need to reequip/replace his armor after every hit? Or rather should the warrior's armor only protect against a hit or two and then have the warrior wait a recharge period before replacing it? Haste just increases movement speed, big deal....wizards should have some benefits too. So why shouldn't a wizard/cipher have a basic attack that is always available? Seriously people, please think before you post.

 

Apples and oranges. The system is not between-spell cooldowns. It's by-level cooldowns. If you are going for fairness then I think that fighters should have a fatigue pool and should have cooldowns every so often to simulate the fact that no human (or presumably humanoid) can continuously swing a melee weapon for all that long. At least not without his swings reducing in power. Frankly they probably should have just gone with a game-wide fatigue system as has been suggested in the forums where every class has a fatigue pool they have to manage.

[Elerond]

"infinitely recastable low-level spellls with no cooldown!"

 

That sounds like a major potential for abuse if I'm grasping the concept correctly. If that system was used in D&D, you would have mages spamming spells like fireball every single round non stop. L0L Or casting stoneskin repeatedly.Or about basically having perma haste. All three are relatively low level spells and if say a reasonably high level wizard could literally spam them every round.. that is just dangerously asking for severe oh-ohness.

 

Don't like the idea at all as described...

 

 

Pets: I dunno about that.. Why have useless 'pets' in the game when you can just go with familiars, animal companies, and other useful stuff.

 

The other combat stuff sounds awesome. And, hardcover strategy guide sounds right on.

 

I think those infinitely recastable low-level would be in D&D terms be Level 0 spells. Which were spells what your caster cast when s/he didn't anything else to cast and sometimes not even then. Fireball and stoneskin were medium level spells in D&D. So they are spells to replace sling or darts (which in d&d usually did more damage than level 0 spells).

Edited October 6, 2012 by Elerond

[metiman]

I believe Tim mentioned that there was still a limit on low level spells. Even if there's a basic magic attack, it just replaces giving your mage a sling as a default attack.

 

When did Tim say this? It's not in the video, is it?

[Darth Trethon]

Take a gander at the DnD spell list - there are plenty of low level spells ripe for abuse if they could be spammed non stopped and weren't limited to per day castings. How bout lightning bolt, improved invisibility, flame arrow, and likely a host of others I'm missing.

 

P.S. I know the game isn't using DnD spell lists but since they're likely to cover many DnDisque spells.. major abuse cna be coming...

 

 

"buse? No. Should the warrior have a recharge time before he can swing the sword again? Should the warrior need to reequip/replace his armor after every hit? Or rather should the warrior's armor only protect against a hit or two and then have the warrior wait a recharge period before replacing it? Haste just increases movement speed, big deal....wizards should have some benefits too. So why shouldn't a wizard/cipher have a basic attack that is always available? Seriously people, please think before you post."

 

Are you REALLY comapring a warrior's sword to a wizard's fireball spell? ARE U KIDDIN' ME!

 

The wizard is alreayd more pwoerful than a iwizard - it doesn't need a helping hand. A mage's basic every round attack should not outdamge a warrior. In this system, a mage would never need to carry a weapon or be vulnerible sicne they just spam their defensive spells as well as their offensive spells. LAME

 

Seriously people, think before you post.

 

It's not in how may times a spell is cast but in how much damage it does....hence low level spells should be made as such. So what if a wizard/cipher has both offense and defense at the same time? Should the warrior take his armor off before swinging the sword?

[Phekdra]

Loved Tim's talk about combat - now I'm even more excited about the game! I had a bit of a chill when he mentioned that cooldowns would be used, but the explanation makes sense so I will bite my tongue. Nice to know I'm also getting a hard back version of the book. I can't believe I'm considering about upping my pledge after that video - I'm getting short of breath when I think about how much I'm spending on a game!

[Bloody Hypocrite]

I believe it was, rewatching it again.

[hideo kuze]

How many images are supposed to be in the update 2 or 4?

 

I'm asking because I see two, but another two are not being loaded (you only the the html image form).

 

Images in question:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/289461/posts/323119/image-166959-full.jpg?1349504327

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/289461/posts/323119/image-166962-full.jpg?1349504439

[Volourn]

"Fireball and stoneskin were medium level spells in D&D. "

 

DnD has 9 levels of spells. Fireball is L3 and Stoneskin is L4 which makes them relatiively low. Even tkaing away, at first level you have MM which cna do 5d4+5 damage making it do more damage than a great sword.. in this system you could spam the low level MM spell non stop. That doesn't seem right. And, people suggest they'll just make low level spells weak which defeats the purpose and stated goal that low level spells will be useful even at higher levels. So, unless they give you garbage low level spells this syetm is weak.

 

I don't know aboutt hat one guy who is trying to comapre the fighter to the mage as it is just sad. Fighters may able tos wing their sword more but the mage has magical powers at his disposal that can outright hold, murder, charm,e tc. the warrior. he has spells that make him immune to warrior's attacks. He has spells that can move him instantly from place to palce or even heal his wounds or summon monsters. Yet, youa re crying that the wizard needs to be give more power to match the warrior? r u serious? lol

[Piccolo]

The mega dungeon artwork is so cool. I love how it gets progressively old and crusty the further down it goes.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Piccolo

[Darth Trethon]

The mega dungeon artwork is so cool. I love how it gets progressively old and crusty near the bottom.

 

I think it will end up somewhere between 7 and 10 levels deep although I would be beyond ecstatic if it ends up at 11 or more. Speaking of which I wonder how PayPal is doing in terms of backers and funds brought in.

[yulva]

Why not waste a turn when switching grimoires rather than a cooldown?

 

AND, I really want to be able to cast whatever spell I want from whatever level. Why limit the player to a limited amount of spells from one level?

Edited October 6, 2012 by yulva

[Guest no-exclusives-plz]

Copied from the wrong link I used to post:

 

 

Obsidian, if you paid attention to the Wasteland 2 feedback, you'd recognize that people generally hate the idea of in-game exclusive content. People want the full game, and they want others to also have the full game. They don't want different pieces of the game floating around with different people. That stuff just gets under peoples' skin and is disappointing from the perspective that the work done for those exclusive preorder or backer items isn't enjoyed or recognized in longevity, as it isn't something that the majority of players of the game are ever going to witness and experience for themselves.

 

Having in-game exclusives is a disappointing tactic that is in line with the stifling large publisher attitude that people are so sick of and which is prompting the relief felt by the kickstarter movement. It's right there with generic mass-appeal gameplay and restrictive DRM in regards to items that the spirit of crowd funding is revolting against.

 

I hate preorder bonuses, promotional bonuses and so on. But in this case it makes sense....they are rewarding the more dedicated backers. And it's not even such a demanding requirement since they are giving from one of the lowest tiers.

 

How is this significantly different from preorder or promo bonuses? There will be people who missed the Kickstarter entirely or who were unable to contribute the required $50 for the exclusive pet. Also, the dollar amount of a pledge isn't a reliable measure of "dedication" without knowledge of the relative wealth or disposable income of the pledger.

[Piccolo]

I think it will end up somewhere between 7 and 10 levels deep although I would be beyond ecstatic if it ends up at 11 or more. Speaking of which I wonder how PayPal is doing in terms of backers and funds brought in.

11 or more seems very optimistic with only 10 days left. i'd probably guess about 6-7 levels at most by the end.

 

It's a shame they didn't start this idea earlier on. Although maybe they'll end up adding more layers on anyway, if they have the time.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Piccolo

[stkaye]

 

I think those infinitely recastable low-level would be in D&D terms be Level 0 spells. Which were spells what your caster cast when s/he didn't anything else to cast and sometimes not even then. Fireball and stoneskin were medium level spells in D&D. So they are spells to replace sling or darts (which in d&d usually did more damage than level 0 spells).

 

Level 0 spells are truly useless, and it's hard to see cantrips getting implementation in a videogame (particularly combat-wise).

 

Mages run out of spells when they're in tough fights. "I have used my final fireball, dragon, but do not think me now defenceless! Prepare for the power of my... TOUCH OF FATIGUE!"

[norolim]

There definitely isn't enough info for me to form a definitive opinion, but from what we know now, I don't really like the magic system. I hope it is better than it sounds, though.

Edited October 6, 2012 by norolim

[Bloody Hypocrite]

Metiman,

Okay, Tim start off by saying this is their rough concept, but your basic low level spells will be subject to a level wide cool down, ie once you cast a certain amount of level 1 spells you won't be able to use them again until they recharge which he says should be longer than a small battle, but could concievably recharge in a longer confrontation. The Grimoires sound to me like a specific set of spells. There is a cool down when *switching* grimoires, but if I'm understanding what he's saying, the spell sets themselves do not regenerate until resting. I could be misinterpreting that, but that sounds like what he's saying.

[Darth Trethon]

I think it will end up somewhere between 7 and 10 levels deep although I would be beyond ecstatic if it ends up at 11 or more. Speaking of which I wonder how PayPal is doing in terms of backers and funds brought in.

11 or more seems very optimistic with only 10 days left. i'd probably guess about 6-7 levels at most by the end.

 

It's a shame they didn't start this idea earlier on. Although maybe they'll end up adding more layers on anyway, if they have the time.

 

6 or 7 at most would be accurate if the present amount of income over time remained relatively steady.....it will not. If you look at other similar kickstarter initiatives you will notice that in the last few days there is a drastic increase in both number of pledgers and pledged amount. That's when people realize that if they don't act they'll be left out and this is likely the only chance anyone will have to obtain any physical versions of the game and other physical goodies as well as pet and kickstarter bonus item. Not to mention all the other digital goodies and opportunities.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Darth Trethon

[Darth Trethon]

Copied from the wrong link I used to post:

 

 

Obsidian, if you paid attention to the Wasteland 2 feedback, you'd recognize that people generally hate the idea of in-game exclusive content. People want the full game, and they want others to also have the full game. They don't want different pieces of the game floating around with different people. That stuff just gets under peoples' skin and is disappointing from the perspective that the work done for those exclusive preorder or backer items isn't enjoyed or recognized in longevity, as it isn't something that the majority of players of the game are ever going to witness and experience for themselves.

 

Having in-game exclusives is a disappointing tactic that is in line with the stifling large publisher attitude that people are so sick of and which is prompting the relief felt by the kickstarter movement. It's right there with generic mass-appeal gameplay and restrictive DRM in regards to items that the spirit of crowd funding is revolting against.

 

I hate preorder bonuses, promotional bonuses and so on. But in this case it makes sense....they are rewarding the more dedicated backers. And it's not even such a demanding requirement since they are giving from one of the lowest tiers.

 

How is this significantly different from preorder or promo bonuses? There will be people who missed the Kickstarter entirely or who were unable to contribute the required $50 for the exclusive pet. Also, the dollar amount of a pledge isn't a reliable measure of "dedication" without knowledge of the relative wealth or disposable income of the pledger.

 

If they realize too late it is what it is but there's certainly nothing wrong with rewarding those that helped make the game possible. As for wealth and disposable income....they aren't asking for a lot, most games these days cost more than that.

 

Why should someone who failed to notice the kickstarter hate Obsidian or the backers that helped make the game a reality because those who contributed get an exclusive item or two? I hate to break it to you but without them there would be NO game to speak of so if anything those who fail to notice and miss or do not contribute should be grateful to those that did and are making this a reality.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Darth Trethon

[Monte Carlo]

Can I second the giant marsh-mallow gelatinous cube please?

[Wintersong]

In the video, it seems like the wizards are the poor people that was screwed by the system. But while it's true that once used their spells they had nothing to do besides trying their luck using some ranged weapon, fighters didn't have anything else going on for them besides keeping swinging their frakking weapon!!! Oh, and once in a while add some point in weapon proficiencies. D&D 3+ improved it for fighters but people prefer think more of BG1&2 so...

 

Personally, I don't think that a fighter should be able to keep on fighting all day and I don't think that a wizard (or spellcaster of any kind) should be able to keep casting spells all day. Heroic or not, it's ridiculous. So Vancian or not, cooldowns or not, just lower combat efficency the more the characters combat without taking some short of break. That's why I prefer stamina bars to control/balance: cast/use whatever you want as much as you want as long as you have the stamina for it, but once you are out of stamina you are too tired to move a finger in combat. So space your combats or die (specially while swimming like in Wizardry).

 

A spellcaster having some basic spammable spell? I do think that it makes sense. Either that or you give the spellcaster some combat skills worth the name. One spellcaster without combat skills should be more proficient with his arcane art (more spells, less cooldowns, basic spammable spells...), while one that has some skills in combat wouldn't have that extra skill in his magic abilities. "Combat skills" in AD&D terms would something like better THACO, weapon/rmor proficiencies, etc.

 

Meanwhile, don't forget to make sure that fighters have more stuff to do in combat that rolling to attack (and for damage if they hit). Soul powah or not.

 

Exclusive pet? No problem there. Why? Because it's eye candy that does nothing. I remember Shawdowrun Returns suggesting at some point to have an adventure/quest exclusive to Kickstarters. The idea was shot down because that it's actually unfair. One thing is a little piece of eye candy that does nothing and another quite different is to keep exclusive something big like an adventure. In any case the pet will end being modded in most surely, so it may seem better to just give it to everyone. *shrug*

Edited October 6, 2012 by Wintersong