Fog of War

[Semper]

dunno if there was already a thread about fog of war or even an official word about it. as far as i remember this feature wasn't mentioned in one of the updates but i like to see it included.

 

imo a fog of war adds tremendously to the exploration of unknown areas and dungeons. it was a real bummer in nwn2 that the whole* geographic map was revealed upon entering, which destroyed all tension and the slightest moment of surprise.

right now i can't decide if big cities should be fully visible. perhaps this could be added as an option - if this costs too much effort just blacken all maps.

 

*as far as there was no door inbetween

Edited October 5, 2012 by Semper

[DocDoomII]

I don't like FoW because the visible range is usually too small and restrictive...

Being able to see at 10mt from my nose is annoying.

[Semper]

of course you have to adjust the radius of the visible range between being tedious and revealing too much. without a fow it's hard to achieve a form of exploration within an isometric game, given that there's a minimap and a draggable screen without being locked at the selected character. how would you integrate exploration?

 

imagine a forked path in a dungeon where you've to decide which way you want to go first. if the whole map was revealed from the start like in nwn2, you'll see that the left one leads to a chamber and the right one is very narrow and stops eventually at a dead end; or that both ways are split and merge later. it's boring to know all this through simply looking at the map.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Semper

[Sensuki]

Yes, have a fog of war, but the visible area should be a lot bigger (like the full area of the display).

 

BG/IWD was designed for 640x480 / 15 inch screens haha

Edited October 5, 2012 by Sensuki

[DocDoomII]

of course you have to adjust the radius of the visible range between being tedious and revealing too much. without a fow it's hard to achieve a form of exploration within an isometric game, given that there's a minimap and a draggable screen without being locked at the selected character. how would you integrate exploration?

 

imagine a forked path in a dungeon where you've to decide which way you want to go first. if the whole map was revealed from the start like in nwn2, you'll see that the left one leads to a chamber and the right one is very narrow and stops eventually at a dead end; or that both ways are split and merge later. it's boring to know all this through simply looking at the map.

Well, dungeons shouldn't be long uninterrupted tunnels.

You should have doors, hidden passages and whatnot. If a tunnel ends with a door the next section shouldn't be visible until you open the door, or even if it seems to be a dead end, maybe there could be a hidden passage that's detectable only upclose.

 

No everything needs to be covered by FoW

[Semper]

Well, dungeons shouldn't be long uninterrupted tunnels. You should have doors, hidden passages and whatnot. If a tunnel ends with a door the next section shouldn't be visible until you open the door

 

nobody said that dungeons should be tunnels; it was just an example where a fog of war builds up an exploration atmosphere without knowing what will be after the next corner, IF there's no door. regarding the door, how will exploration be handled in exterior maps? staying with your example there's no door and the whole map will be revealed, showing the "hidden" cave or an interesting location.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Semper

[curryinahurry]

@ Semper

 

I was thinking about this and wondering if the old fog of war was more driven by technology limitations of working with 2d backgrounds of the time. I'm thinking that there might be a way to use lighting effects to achieve the same result and have the look be more naturalistic with the Unity engine.

 

Outdoors, in a wilderness area for example, the map might be fully lit but details and encounters could appear by proximity. Indoors, it would be more driven by line of sight and whatever light-casting devices the party is utilizing. But I really don't know how things like this work within the engine

[Mabster]

imo a fog of war adds tremendously to the exploration of unknown areas and dungeons. it was a real bummer in nwn2 that the whole* geographic map was revealed upon entering, which destroyed all tension and the slightest moment of surprise.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think you have your terms mixed up. In this context, fog of war refers to the mechanic where NPCs and events are hidden (i.e. obscured by a fog effect) in previously explored areas that the player's characters cannot currently see. Not revealing the map to the player until it's explored is not FoW.

 

Hopefully the game will have both mechanics. Exploring dungeons is fun and FoW adds an important tactical element to the game.

[Lady Evenstar]

I much prefer that maps only be revealed as I explore them. Whatever range will best support exploration without encouraging combat exploits is what I'd like.

[Semper]

Unless I'm mistaken, I think you have your terms mixed up. In this context, fog of war refers to the mechanic where NPCs and events are hidden (i.e. obscured by a fog effect) in previously explored areas that the player's characters cannot currently see. Not revealing the map to the player until it's explored is not FoW.

 

yeah, i know that but i couldn't think of real buzz word to call it, and fog of exploration sounds terrible. is there any? black backgrounds revealed bit by bit while exploring the map with your characters is the formula i was talking about.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Semper

[FlintlockJazz]

I prefer the FoW system to the 'lock the camera to the characters' that DAO used when you were in isometric view (you basically had to have one character on the screen at any time, you couldn't keep scrolling if it meant you would no longer have a character in view). The latter's method meant that you couldn't just click on your destination if it was on the other side of the map like in BG2 but keep clicking ahead of their movement or if you had your party split in two (warriors in the thick of it then a gap before reaching your mages) then you had problems setting up area of effect spells near the enemies near the other part of your party.

[Jarmo]

I don't really care much either way.

 

But if there's fow, it should work by the line of sight.

 

- Not reveal someone who's 10ft away, but behind a corner/wall.

 

- Not lead to a situation where I'm in a grand hall or a throne room but have no idea if there's someone sitting on the throne.

Or not know there's a throne to begin with. Because it's 100ft away and my optically challenged hero can only detect things at 60ft or closer.

[general_azure]

Yeah, some line of sight mechanic would be neat. The old games had one as well, but I think only very large objects (cliffsides, houses) blocked sight. Those silly bandits might have been more successful had they been able to hide behind trees.

 

... and maybe my guys can get glasses this time, because they were awfully short-sighted in BG =P

[LadyCrimson]

I like fog of war, but like others said, I like it when the visible area is fairly large. Not huge, but not a tiny circle.

 

The other way that doesn't bother me is to have the terrain/buildings revealed but not the people/monsters, and some areas of interest might remain hidden. So it's not total fog of war but a partial. You still wouldn't know where the dangers/monsters were going to pop up, but you can pretend that you have a map of the town/main roads and thus have a general idea of where to go.

 

Either way works for me.

[PublicNuisance]

I would be in favor of fog f war. I think it adds to the fun of exploration and can add tension.

[Osvir]

Fog of War was great for Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

I would not want to have it like people are describing NWN2.

[Jaesun]

YES! Fog of war <3

[Amentep]

Love Fog of War; I think if they can make the area revealed realistic (appropriate large in open spaces, not showing things behind objects) it could be amazingly awesome.

 

But even as it was, I enjoyed it.

 

Well except when the obsessive / compulsive part of me got frustrated because there was a tiny "fog or war" cloud I couldn't clear on a map.

[Ashram]

I am good with Fog of War as long as it is a bit more expansive than what I have experienced in previous games. Of course you shouldn't be able to see what is behind door number two, but on an open battlefield...you should be able to see pretty much everything unless conditions like weather, time of day, conditions dictate otherwise.

[DocDoomII]

If implemented, an amazing thing would be if it could actually reflect the amount of light in the environment.

During midday on a sunny day in an exterior place the field of view should be pretty big, and by night or with low light condition (raining, eclipse(?), or inside a dark dungeon) it should be quite narrow. Maybe expandible with a torch or magic.

[Shadenuat]

Draw ideas from Nox which handled it in interesting way.

Also, I want skills and races to affect how far your party can see.

[ReyVagabond]

I like the idea of Fog of war, and line of sight. the Fog should represent how far you can persive the things you see.

for example.

 

In a field it should be around 300 meters

In a city maybe around 100-200 meters.

Ina thick forest 50 metres.

In a blizzard or heavy rain 25 meters.

 

and so on! and Line of sight you can only see whats not in cover. and yes i want a cover sisten in the game.

something simple like crouch, lie, that intop of the magic stuff like a rogue woking in front or someone in daylight with out beeing spoted lol.

[Osvir]

Well except when the obsessive / compulsive part of me got frustrated because there was a tiny "fog or war" cloud I couldn't clear on a map.

 

Yes this! Totally this. Have some areas frustrate us because we can't explore it fully and it'll annoy us to no end (I'm not being sarcastic xD).

[Jaesun]

Well except when the obsessive / compulsive part of me got frustrated because there was a tiny "fog or war" cloud I couldn't clear on a map.

 

[DocDoomII]

Well except when the obsessive / compulsive part of me got frustrated because there was a tiny "fog or war" cloud I couldn't clear on a map.

I have the same problem, I hate when even a half centimetre remains hidden. It drives me mad