Generic fantasy setting?

[Metabot]

What are people basing this judgment on? Where are they getting this secret information? It's a huge case of jumping to conclusions if you ask me.

[Wolfenbarg]

Certain race inclusions and general style makes it sound like many other fantasy worlds. That doesn't really bother me though, especially if they give fantasy the KotOR 2 treatment.

[Metabot]

Hmm having elves doesn't automatically make it generic. What style? A couple of sketches? I mean really?

[Gamgee]

So far it does kind of look generic. Though the more I hear the less generic it gets, I really think this is because they gave us the broadest outline of a game ever. They didn't have any fine details. It's like saying a car will come with four tires and and engine. Well duh, but where are the details. Ect. Then again my faith could be misplaced and this does turn out to be pretty generic, though I don't get that feeling at the moment.

[Piccolo]

From what I understand, it's going to be a fairly familiar fantasy setting, with some unique / weird stuff mixed in for flavour. I'm perfectly happy with that.

 

In fact, I would be perfectly happy if they just went with a completely ordinary medieval setting... or a completely ordinary Tolkien-esque setting. As i've said in other threads, are there really that many great cRPGs out there with a traditional fantasy setting? I'm looking at GOG.com's RPG catalogue right now, and I just don't see a setting that's been absolutely done to death. Not even close.

[WorstUsernameEver]

"Generic" is an abused expression at this point anyway, the equivalent of a buzzword. The Forgotten Realms are considered generic too, but Mask of the Betrayer made use of a little bit lore from them than usual and most people were really happy with it, so it all depends on the balance really. Knowing Obsidian, and reading a few of the details that came out so far, I think I'm okay with the direction.

[Metabot]

Even if it were tolkien-esque it wouldn't automatically make it generic. Is game of thrones generic?

[Gamgee]

Even if it were tolkien-esque it wouldn't automatically make it generic. Is game of thrones generic?

Game of Thrones isn't high fantasy, so no. It's an entirely different genre of fantasy.

[Metabot]

"Generic" is an abused exp<b></b>ression at this point anyway, the equivalent of a buzzword. The Forgotten Realms are considered generic too, but Mask of the Betrayer made use of a little bit lore from them than usual and most people were really happy with it, so it all depends on the balance really. Knowing Obsidian, and reading a few of the details that came out so far, I think I'm okay with the direction.

 

Ok when someone says "generic fantasy setting" I think of a kind of medieval setting but I also think of the kinds of plots that go with it, the basic King Arthur/chosen one plot. Even within that though it all depends on what you do with it.

[Metabot]

Even if it were tolkien-esque it wouldn't automatically make it generic. Is game of thrones generic?

Game of Thrones isn't high fantasy, so no. It's an entirely different genre of fantasy.

 

Doesn't matter if it's a different genre of fantasy now does it?

[Piccolo]

Even if it were tolkien-esque it wouldn't automatically make it generic. Is game of thrones generic?

Game of Thrones isn't high fantasy, so no. It's an entirely different genre of fantasy.

Actually, it is high fantasy.

 

G.R.R Martin may keep stuff like magic and non-human races fairly low-key in favour of human conflict, but those elements are still present, and it's still set in a completely fictional world as opposed to a low fantasy story, which takes place in a the real world.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Piccolo

[Badmojo]

Hmm having elves doesn't automatically make it generic. What style? A couple of sketches? I mean really?

 

It will be different, but probably not different enough. Including elves and dwarves automatically gets a big negative from a lot of people like me who are just tired of seeing them in just about every single fantasy game. The only thing we have seen that even hints it might have something unique is that there are guns in the game. Still, from information we have seen seems to be leaning on the usual fantasy tropes which makes a lot of us go...meh. I think obsidian will do a good job in making it interesting, but I do think a lot of us are burnt out on fantasy in general.

 

Skyrim, the witcher 2, dragon age, kingdoms of amalur, two worlds, dragons dogma, ego draconis..etc Do not get me wrong, there are some fantastic amazing games in here like the witcher series....BUUUTTT, still the fantasy setting IS getting a little stale.

 

My thought process

 

Anouncement of an old school RPG kickstarter by obsidian -> *WHAT?!?!?! Take my money, TAKE MY MONEY!!!, yippeeee, I hope its something really original and a unique setting world like PST, can't wait to see what they make!* -> anouncement that it would be a fantasy setting -> *meh, fantasy is overused, but as long as they do not use the same old races and change the setting it is still good* -> anouncement that two of the races are elves and dwarves -> (eye twitch) *seriously? elves and dwarves?...they could had gone any direction and done anything new...ANYTHING...and we have elves and dwarves...sigh..., it will still be good and I am still excited...but.....elves and dwarves....sigh....* -> next anouncment with some new info ->????

Edited October 3, 2012 by Badmojo

[Metabot]

So it's impossible to do anything interesting with elves then? What about humans? Is all fiction boring because there are always humans? Should we get rid of humans in fantasy as well? I do agree that having some new races would be very welcome, but just the fact that there will be elves of some kind doesn't tell us much.

[Badmojo]

So it's impossible to do anything interesting with elves then? What about humans? Is all fiction boring because there are always humans? Should we get rid of humans in fantasy as well? I do agree that having some new races would be very welcome, but just the fact that there will be elves of some kind doesn't tell us much.

 

Not a good example, we are all human and most people WANT to play human as their player character. Elves and dwarves are fictional characters that just seem to apear in every fantasy setting for whatever reason. Sure we can change them up, but what is the point of including them if you are going to change them from what they are known for? It would have been better to just create a new race to fit the new class than use overused races.

 

Sure, we know there are snow dwarves...not much info outside that, but what is the point of making dwarves that live above ground and in the snow? Why not just create another race that lives in the snow and have a really unique history/skills instead of using short huma..er.. I mean dwarves.

 

A few overused tropes I hope are not in this game, but fear will be.

1. Dwarves and Elves (possibly humans also) do not like each other. Probably were at war with each other at one time.

2, The hatred will still be there and the different groups will be our *token* races that is supposed to represent racism instead of humans being racist or bigots with their own people, so the devs can avoid any real controversy but praise themselves how mature the game is.

3. Dragons

[Piccolo]

I think obsidian will do a good job in making it interesting, but I do think a lot of us are burnt out on fantasy in general.

 

Skyrim, the witcher 2, dragon age, kingdoms of amalur, two worlds, dragons dogma, ego draconis..etc Do not get me wrong, there are some fantastic amazing games in here like the witcher series....BUUUTTT, still the fantasy setting IS getting a little stale.

For modern action RPGs you might have a point... but none of those are oldschool isometric cRPGs, are they?

 

Again, as someone who loves the traditional fantasy setting, I look at GOG.com's collection of RPGs and really don't see an abundance of great cRPGs in that setting.

 

If you're someone who doesn't particularly care for fantasy in the first place, then that's a different issue altogether. I don't particularly care for the post-apocalyptic setting, but if Obsidian decided to make another post-apoc RPG, i'm not going to start moaning about the setting being overused. I'll just accept that that game probably isn't for me.

[Aedelric]

Only thing worse than generic is when someone tries to be too original and we end up with an unrecognisable monstrosity.

 

They said high fantasy so we can know what to expect, but this is Obsidian, we should expect some twists.

[TrashMan]

Whenever I hear the word "generic" used in any kind of complaint, I immediately don't give a damn and start hating the poster who used it.

 

That word lost all meaning because of such horrid abuse on the internet. If the complaining crowd is to be believed, everything is generic.

I that such complainers. They want something "new" but dont' know what. Or kind themselves into thinking that their idea is fresh adn new and interesting. It is not.

 

 

Let's replace elves with dragonkin. Wow, that makes the game so much better, no? NO. IT does not.

If you think any race is truly original, think again.

 

 

Which is why I'm going to campaign FOR as much genericness as possible. Because people complaining agaisnt "it" are getting on my neverves.

 

MORE GENERICNESS (whatever that may be).

Edited October 3, 2012 by TrashMan

[BSoda]

Cadegund wears (boring non-boob) armor and a musket. That doesn't seem overly generic to me.

[Badmojo]

I think obsidian will do a good job in making it interesting, but I do think a lot of us are burnt out on fantasy in general.

 

Skyrim, the witcher 2, dragon age, kingdoms of amalur, two worlds, dragons dogma, ego draconis..etc Do not get me wrong, there are some fantastic amazing games in here like the witcher series....BUUUTTT, still the fantasy setting IS getting a little stale.

For modern action RPGs you might have a point... but none of those are oldschool isometric cRPGs, are they?

 

Again, as someone who loves the traditional fantasy setting, I look at GOG.com's collection of RPGs and really don't see an abundance of great cRPGs in that setting.

 

If you're someone who doesn't particularly care for fantasy in the first place, then that's a different issue altogether. I don't particularly care for the post-apocalyptic setting, but if Obsidian decided to make another post-apoc RPG, i'm not going to start moaning about the setting being overused. I'll just accept that that game probably isn't for me.

 

Do not get me wrong, I accept that this is what they want to do. However, I see nothing wrong with me or any other people mentioning their dissapointment so that it will hopefully help stear future games in a different direction. Perhaps even change a gew things for the better in this game also.

[cyberarmy]

I really dont understand just having elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons make games "generic".

 

%99 of RPGs (hell even all game tpyes) include humans.

Therefore they are all generic!

[Badmojo]

I really dont understand just having elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons make games "generic".

 

%99 of RPGs (hell even all game tpyes) include humans.

Therefore they are all generic!

 

 

Overused, then? People can identify with humans because everybody is human (supposedly anyway). You can still have fantasy and change it up, but when you start going with such GENERIC chatacters like elves and dwarves, people cannot help but have some unflattering assumptions on where the game direction will go. You either go mostly with what elves and dwarves are used for or you change them up so much they are unrecognized mess and wonder why they even used them. My gripe is that the game (before stretch goals) only had 5 PC races. One is human, two are elves and dwarves...that leaves what? a whoping two possible unique races(again, before the stretch goals were released)? we know one race is godtouched so that leaves one race left. I hope the last race is not another overused traditional race like ogre, halfling..etc or I might lose it.

[TrashMan]

You have health in every game. GENERIC!

 

You can die in every game! GENERIC!

 

You have to press a bottun in every game! GENERIC!

[Badmojo]

You have health in every game. GENERIC!

 

You can die in every game! GENERIC!

 

You have to press a bottun in every game! GENERIC!

Fine overused generic Player character RACES then. Oh, and yes humans are used in every game, but people are human and can identify them.

[melkathi]

Though generic races are part of what turns a setting generic. Using anything overly familiar creates difficulties (Going for completly "new" ideas does too of course. Most importantly the "Why should I be interested in this?" question of potential customers). Elves and dwarves are fairly clearly defined as fantasy races and the archtypes that come with them. If you stay too close to the known model, you run the danger of having that part of the game dull and forgetable. If you deviate too much from it, you miss the whole reason to have the races in the first place. The question is then, how do you add personality to something overly familiar without alienating the audience and without making your changes appear like a gimmick.

 

One way is to take the races from a familiar environment and put them in an up until then unfamiliar one. Of course once it has been done a few times, it looses its effectiveness.

Prime examples for this option are Shadowrun, Warhammer 40k but also Spelljammer and Dark Sun.

Dark Sun looks at Elves and aks the question: if elves live in nature, away from the bustling human metropolises, but that nature is vast deserts, how would their culture be then?

Warhmmer 40k looked at Squats and while they had made attempts at explaining the "dwarf" presence in the setting, ultimately decided it just didn't work and had the whole species nearly wiped out. (Jervis Johnson wrote up a great explanation here )

 

The other option is to take the setting and enter an unfamiliar variable, then explore how that would affect the world and races that inhabit it.

Arcanum attempted this and created a very interesting setting. The two races though, dwarves and elves, are probably the most forgetable part of it. Of course that is part of the setting. The human industrial revolution coupled with the usurpation of power by the gnomish financial interests leave no room for the old powers of bygone times, turning them into tragic side notes.

Dragon Age also, to a lesser extent, went this way with Dwarves, by removing the old, conventional racial enmity with orcs/goblins and entering the darkspawn into the equasion. The new enemy allowed for the otherwise fairly generic dwarveness to develope a feel and atmosphere of its own. The Legion of the Dead is not truly unique. In fact they are little more than Warhammer troll slayers without the wierd hair. But they work and the setting is richer for having them.

 

And Dragon Age brings me to the third way of handling races: saying "Our <race name> are different!" Which is what Dragon Age did with Elves and... well, they didn't need elves to tell that story. The nomadic people in the woodlands could just as well have been a human civilization, the city elves just as well a different human ethnicity. If elves had been left out, the exact same story could still have been told. What the game gained by having elves this way? They could briefly touch upon racism without any fear of controversy (which there would have been had it been humans living in squalor based on their skin colour instead of their ear-pointiness-factor) and well, they got to have elves.

 

 

But I better get back to work...

Was going to write something about the Witcher, AD&D's Birthright settign and others, but mostly forgot what

i think in the end I wanted to end wih something on the lines of: Let's see what Obsidian will do with these races to make them interesting without making them a gimmick and including them just so they can say they have pretty people wih pointy ears and short dudes who drink too much.

[TrashMan]

I personally love the "generic" races as they are.