metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 While I don't agree with the direction this game is taking and I won't be backing the project and probably won't be playing the game, I have to respect Obsidian for an impressive display of artistic integrity. Obviously Sawyer and the rest of the design team genuinely believe that cooldowns and other more modern game mechanics are superior to the older systems. They have to know that this decision will alienate a significant number of players hoping for BG2/IWD (or at least PS:T) combat mechanics and yet they have still made the relevant announcements, albeit not 'officially', about these controversial combat design decisions. I won't lie. I am very disappointed. I was really looking forward to a game with the combat of BG2 (with maybe a little ToEE thrown in from Tim) and a story at the level of PS:T or at least MotB. Now at best it seems to be a game with the combat of a somewhat improved DA:O and hopefully still a compelling story from The Master storyteller, Chris Avellone. I am grateful that they at least revealed this before the end of the kickstarter after they had everyone's money, even those of us who so strongly disagree with the design decisions they've already made. What is important is that this is the kind of game that the designers want. That this is the kind of game that they would enjoy playing. This, folks, is what it looks like to have principles and to actually act on them as if they mattered. The alternative is some form of pandering for commercial/financial reasons. The whole point of this project (and many other kickstarter projects) is to free the creators from any sort of publisher-like commercial demands. Kickstarter frees them from any obligation other than making the kind of game that they would want to play and of course one that at least somewhat resembles the kind of game they promised in the kickstarter. Actually, I might argue that they should change the description slightly to reflect the more modern, updated combat system very unlike the ones used in the examples given in the kickstarter description. It is unfortunate (for me) that I do not share their taste in cRPG combat, but how can I complain about their rare display of integrity? I believe that artistic integrity is one of the most important features missing from our modern world of commercialism. People should be creating art that they personally feel is great. Great by their own standards. Not by anyone else's. Crowdfunding has made this sort of thing possible, and I applaud it even if I will not personally be benefiting from this particular project. I'm sure it will make DA:O fans who still like a good story very happy indeed, but that still is not the point. The point is that it will make the team themselves happy and proud of what they have created. Well Josh says that he is never actually proud of his games, but hopefully everyone else on the team can be. 8 JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) the old IE had cooldowns too. Things like Lay on Hands were based on daily cooldowns. The quote people are up in arms explicitly states that that is the system they are trying to mimic. They've also explicitly said that they like making choice about what spells you have prepared. I don't get what the problem is. Is it the word cooldown? They could call it a timer or something. It wasn't a problem 13 years ago when it was already in their games. Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Kthxbye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Daily Cooldown is not a cooldown at all. If you are attempting to trick Obsidian with pseudo-clever semantic arguments I don't think you will succeed. You may as well argue that cooldown = vancian system because you have to wait 8 hours between castings. I guarantee that is not what Feargus and Josh were talking about when they used the term "cooldowns". But optimists will be optimists. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedelric Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 You do not agree with the project, will not back the project and will not play the game when it is finished. Why on earth are you even here Metiman? I respect Obsidian for their integrity too, they have more than most developers, Bioware sold out, even if they deny it. Most importantly I am here because I want to play this game, it is the game I have been waiting years for and will be definitely buying it, soon as I do not have to use Kickstarter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Daily Cooldown is not a cooldown at all. If you are attempting to trick Obsidian with pseudo-clever semantic arguments I don't think you will succeed. You may as well argue that cooldown = vancian system because you have to wait 8 hours between castings. I guarantee that is not what Feargus and Josh were talking about when they used the term "cooldowns". But optimists will be optimists. What? How is a daily cooldown not a cooldown at all? seriously, he flat out says in the quotes people are mad about that the goal is to mimic the system from the old games while removing rest. It's not optimism so much as it is reading what he said. From the sounds of it, the system they are working on has some level of spell selection along the lines of vancian magic, but with cooldowns in place of resting. Nothing they have written gives me the impression that we will be casting magic missiles every 3 seconds. Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As I pointed out in a different thread, even though I dont like cooldowns and they are a departure from the IE system, they could work if they get the numbers right. Dragon Age was really slow and clunky combat that just felt plain terrible, but the game doesn't want to be as fast as Diablo 3. I was thinking more along the lines of something you'd see in an RTS would be about the combat speed that you'd want. I will reserve my judgement until after I have seen the combat in play but I have to say I really, really hope it feels nothing like Dragon Age or an MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 You do not agree with the project, will not back the project and will not play the game when it is finished. Why on earth are you even here Metiman? I respect Obsidian for their integrity too, they have more than most developers, Bioware sold out, even if they deny it. Most importantly I am here because I want to play this game, it is the game I have been waiting years for and will be definitely buying it, soon as I do not have to use Kickstarter. Do you seriously want to know? Because if you do I will PM you the reasons. Or are you questioning my right to post in this forum since I am not going to be backing the project? It is always nice to say what you actually mean. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MReed Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I concur with the OP -- I don't like the direction that Obsidian is taking the gameplay mechanics, but they deserve props for admitting it while there is still time to revoke / reduce kickstarter pledges. the old IE had cooldowns too. Things like Lay on Hands were based on daily cooldowns. They (and all other abilities, for that matter) reset when you clicked on the rest. In fact, just to be crystal clear, an ability that was shown in the game as being usable "once a day" would not reset if 24 game hours passed. The trigger for resetting these abilities was resting, not the passage of game time, much less real-time. It is clear that this isn't what they meant by cooldowns -- they are going for something like "ability X recovers after Y realtime minutes", and no, there weren't any effects that worked that way in BG / IWD / PS:T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaesun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Another cooldown thread? 1 Some of my Youtube Classic Roland MT-32 Video Game Music videos | My Music | My Photography Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwars Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Everyone here just needs to cooldown a bit, goddamn. 7 Listen to my home-made recordings (some original songs, some not): http://www.youtube.c...low=grid&view=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Vancian schamsian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uomoz Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Codex whining at its best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Another cooldown thread? I hope not. That was not my intent. I just wanted to say what I said. Nothing more. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that cooldowns (at least for spellcasters) do actually make sense when designing a real time game (rather than a P&P game). However the cooldowns need to be pretty long. For instance, your mage character might have access to 20 spells, but some of them might have cooldowns between 5-60 minutes. Which means they aren't spammable and if you use one of them incorrectly, well you're **** out of luck. Not that the developers will actually do that though because I think they want to try and reduce reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I concur with the OP -- I don't like the direction that Obsidian is taking the gameplay mechanics, but they deserve props for admitting it while there is still time to revoke / reduce kickstarter pledges. the old IE had cooldowns too. Things like Lay on Hands were based on daily cooldowns. They (and all other abilities, for that matter) reset when you clicked on the rest. In fact, just to be crystal clear, an ability that was shown in the game as being usable "once a day" would not reset if 24 game hours passed. The trigger for resetting these abilities was resting, not the passage of game time, much less real-time. It is clear that this isn't what they meant by cooldowns -- they are going for something like "ability X recovers after Y realtime minutes", and no, there weren't any effects that worked that way in BG / IWD / PS:T. and the rest system was terrible in its own right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Another cooldown thread? Will this topic need a cooldown? "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedelric Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Do you seriously want to know? Because if you do I will PM you the reasons. Or are you questioning my right to post in this forum since I am not going to be backing the project? It is always nice to say what you actually mean. Agreed, it is always nice to say what you mean, you could easily just posted a topic, `Obsidian, make the game the way I want´, lets face it, that is exactly what you really mean by this topic. Edit - Anyway, have fun with whatever game you decide to back in the future. Can not say I like farewell topics like this, they are not very productive. Edited October 2, 2012 by Aedelric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagen Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Maybe you should just wait and see and let Obsidian do their thing instead of writing it off like this on principle. They may still surprise you in a good way and present a tactical combat system that's deep, challenging and fun to play. 2 When in deadly danger When beset by doubt Run in little circles Wave your arms and shout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCrash Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Wasn't there a "Thank you" thread already opened? for spamming the forum....??? Don't get me wrong, I'm a real OE fan, but I just don't understand why there must be a new thread for every little sh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Oh I see. So you were not even remotely sincere in your previous post. You have not the slightest clue what I want to say or what is in my head. Just because you don't care about principles or integrity doesn't mean that no one else does. Just because you don't think in terms of ideas does not mean that no one else does. This is neither a farewell thread nor any sort of announcement that I am not backing the project. I already announced that long ago. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdeluxe Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Why couldn't this be posted in the cool down threads? Mods must be asleep 2 ~Seattle Supersonic of the Obsidian Order~ Chris Hansen is the Savior of Seattle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Nah, just not omnipresent. We actually like to read and post a bit too in between. Existing thread on the subject here 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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