Project Eternity's longevity will be determined by its modability

[Death Machine Miyagi]

More than new regions or new races added by the developers, this is what I hope for most: a game which is easy, or at least not difficult, to tinker with. This is, for me, at the heart of the Infinity Engine's success.

 

Baldur's Gate 2 still has mods being made for it. Still. The game was released in 2000, for god's sakes. The community survives not just because its a great game, but because its a great game you can rather easily add things to, change rules or change gameplay, fix lingering bugs, add new quests, new characters, new romances, new whatever, all of which can fit more or less seamlessly with the original game (depending on the skill of the modder, of course). Some of the mod work is fantastic, as good as anything in the original game. Some of it is awful, but eh, Sturgeon's Law and all that. What matters is that its a fantastic platform and story on which to build new things.

 

Basically, when they say they're harkening back to the classic days of Baldur's Gate, what I hope for most is that the game world is compelling enough and the game itself simple enough to mod that it has the same kind of longevity we've seen with BG2. Hopefully that isn't an unrealistic expectation.

[Volourn]

BG2 mods suck. And, the active 'community' for it is probably lucky to reach 1k let alone 10k. If youa re gonna use a game as an example for successful communities due to mods, your best bet is to point out NWN since that was the main point of that game while BG2 'mods' are tacked on and not the point - not to mention they suck. To claim BG2 mods are equal to the main game is INSANE.

 

 

I wouldn't mind if PE has modability but it certainly isn't needed.

[Jasede]

Mods are always terrible. I'll pass.

[imatechguy]

BG2 mods suck. And, the active 'community' for it is probably lucky to reach 1k let alone 10k. If youa re gonna use a game as an example for successful communities due to mods, your best bet is to point out NWN since that was the main point of that game while BG2 'mods' are tacked on and not the point - not to mention they suck. To claim BG2 mods are equal to the main game is INSANE.

 

 

I wouldn't mind if PE has modability but it certainly isn't needed.

 

I have to wonder where you are getting mods because many of the mods I've used throughout the years are even better than the original game content. A trip to Spellhold Studios, Gibberlings 3 and Pocket Plane will get you most of the higher quality English language mods, and there are non-English sites have mods of a similar high quality. I'm with the OP here that modability is synonomous with longevity.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

BG2 mods suck. And, the active 'community' for it is probably lucky to reach 1k let alone 10k. If youa re gonna use a game as an example for successful communities due to mods, your best bet is to point out NWN since that was the main point of that game while BG2 'mods' are tacked on and not the point - not to mention they suck. To claim BG2 mods are equal to the main game is INSANE.

 

 

I wouldn't mind if PE has modability but it certainly isn't needed.

 

Care to cite some specifics examples of the mods you used? I can't even play vanilla BG or BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems, Baldur's Gate Trilogy, etc. anymore.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Pretty much all the mods I've seen for BG2 are just to add uber kewl phat loot or some other nonsense that is game breaking and not immersive in the least. I don't use mods because the game is good enough without them.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Pretty much all the mods I've seen for BG2 are just to add uber kewl phat loot or some other nonsense that is game breaking and not immersive in the least.

 

I'm getting the distinct sense a lot of people here have made some really poor choices in their BG2 modding.

[nikolokolus]

Mods are great for many games and in some cases they are almost essential -- the Circle of Eight modpack for Temple of Elemental Evil comes to mind. But we also need to bear in mind that this kickstarter just might not give them enough resources to make a viable toolkit. So if they can do it and it doesn't rob resources from the single player out-of-the-box experience I'd love to see a toolkit released either with the game or post release. But I'm not going to lose sleep over it being left out.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Mods are great for many games and in some cases they are almost essential -- the Circle of Eight modpack for Temple of Elemental Evil comes to mind. But we also need to bear in mind that this kickstarter just might not give them enough resources to make a viable toolkit. So if they can do it and it doesn't rob resources from the single player out-of-the-box experience I'd love to see a toolkit released either with the game or post release. But I'm not going to lose sleep over it being left out.

 

That's the thing. I don't think a toolkit is necessary. It would be nice, but not necessary. All that's really necessary is that, for those dedicated enough, the game itself be easy to mod. BG2 was cited as an example precisely because it has no toolkit; its just fairly basic stuff to mod, and what is modded can fit with the main game seamlessly.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Care to cite some specifics examples of the mods you used? I can't even play vanilla BG or BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems, Baldur's Gate Trilogy, etc. anymore.

 

Well let's look at the first mod you've quoted.

 

Sword Coast Strategems

1. you get to choose all NPC weapon proficiencies when they join

2. you can skip the Candlekeep tutorial and just get the experience and treasure.

3. Reintroduce potions of extra-healing

4. Allow Yeslick to use axes

5. Move Boo out of quick access and into Minsc's pack

etc

 

My response?

 

1. Lets make the NPCs OP than they are. Great stuff.

2. Why not skip anything you like and get the experience and treasure? Hey, I'm too lazy to actually play the game to get the xp and treasure by actually doing it.

3. Potions of extra-healing? Yep, just add all that game breaking and OP items.

4. Another example to make a NPC OP.

5. Yep, another way to make Minsc OP by freeing up a slot. He's already OP, you don't need to move Boo.

etc

 

I can list more game breaking and OP way for items and NPCs but I'll stop at five.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Shades]

I'd have to agree with the OP, there are so many mods out there for all the IE games and it's great to see that their communities are still going strong. And I certainly prefer some mod made content to parts of the original content in BG2.

 

I think that like BG asking for something like a toolset (especially one to create areas since you would need to create area art to do that) may be a bit farfetched, but I do hope that PE will be as easy for people to mod as the IE games have been. I really enjoy going through my first run for a game with no mods at all, and then adding bits and pieces to future playthroughs just to change things up a bit. I've lost count of the number of times I've played through BG2 simply because of all the mods there are for it, and likewise adding the NPC mods to both the IWD games made going through the games again a bit easier since they provided new dialogue content to explore.

 

I find it amazing and inspiring that people put so much time and effort into making mods for these games.

[nikolokolus]

With the game being developed in Unity, it might be tough to expose assets. It seems like there's a bit hurdle from some of the comments I've been reading, but I admit that I don't know much about Unity.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Care to cite some specifics examples of the mods you used? I can't even play vanilla BG or BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems, Baldur's Gate Trilogy, etc. anymore.

 

 

I can list more game breaking and OP way for items and NPCs but I'll stop at five.

 

Every last one of the things you cited is an optional component. If you don't like it, you don't have to install it. The things you did not cite which are also optional components:

 

1. Enemy mages can now cast and use spells intelligently.

2. Same goes for enemy clerics.

3. Enemies can no longer be picked off one by one; they call for help, which summons other nearby enemies.

4. Spells like harm, which could drop...say, Firkraag to 1 hit point if you got lucky, are no longer so powerful.

5. Greater Restoration can no longer heal the entire party in one fell swoop.

6. Unbalanced items like the Staff of the Archmagi or the Robe of Vecna are moved farther into the game, or have unbalanced features removed (turning invisible every time you equip the Staff of the Archmagi, for example).

7. Other unbalanced items like arrows of dispelling are removed from being sold over the countertop.

8. You no longer walk into a vampire's lair only to find a big table filled with stakes.

9. Beholders are no longer simply a matter of equipping the Shield of Balduran and letting them kill themselves with reflected attacks.

10. Cowled Wizards now detect spells cast indoors in Athkatla.

 

And so on and so on. Basically, you're cherry picking optional components you think unbalance things and ignoring the ones that make the game more balanced to support your argument.

[Volourn]

Your list shows exactly why mod changes to core things in games are lame.

 

Let's take #10. Why should cowled wizards even detect spells cast indoors? The point fot hem is to stop magic battles occuring in public. They don't give a crap what happens in someone's private domain hence the license.

 

The main reason why BG series mods suck is the writing is prue garbage, the combat thrown in is usually pathetic, and things get changed for stupid reasons.

 

You are right those options are optional hence I opt not to use such garbage.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

With the game being developed in Unity, it might be tough to expose assets. It seems like there's a bit hurdle from some of the comments I've been reading, but I admit that I don't know much about Unity.

 

This is one of the things that worries me about modern games in general, RPG or no. Game series which once had rich modding communities, such as the Total War series, have increasingly been left out to dry by the developers, owing to the complexity of the engines they use or some such reason. Rome: Total War had Europa Barbarorum, which was nothing short of a work of art. Total War: Rome II will have no such spectacular mods, most likely; it will simply be too difficult to change.

 

Perhaps there's nothing that can be done about this, but if so its a great tragedy.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Your list shows exactly why mod changes to core things in games are lame.

 

Let's take #10. Why should cowled wizards even detect spells cast indoors? The point fot hem is to stop magic battles occuring in public. They don't give a crap what happens in someone's private domain hence the license.

 

The main reason why BG series mods suck is the writing is prue garbage, the combat thrown in is usually pathetic, and things get changed for stupid reasons.

 

You are right those options are optional hence I opt not to use such garbage.

 

Pretty sure the Cowled Wizards oppose people using unsanctioned magic in general, not just outdoors. But whatever butters your muffin, dude. I'll take my Baldur's Gate with enemies that actually put up a half-way decent fight, thank you very much.

[Bos_hybrid]

Good games are what is truly remembered and played time and again.

 

FO 1&2, PS:T, BG 2 etc, would still be played even if you couldn't mod a single thing.

[Shevek]

Being able to play bg1 in bg2 is a pretty epic mod. Being able to use IWD items is cool too. Moreover, all the spell revisions rock. Many BG2 mods rock.

[Nakia]

A game that NEEDS modding to be good is not a good game. A game that is good but encourages modding is a great game. It will live on and it will enhance the reputation of the developers. I am hoping that there will be a toolkit for this game.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Good games are what is truly remembered and played time and again.

 

FO 1&2, PS:T, BG 2 etc, would still be played even if you couldn't mod a single thing.

 

A good game is the foundation, I agree. Without a good game at the base, who cares if you can mod it?

 

Moreover, not all games are equally as worth modding. For example, as much as I love the game, I don't have much interest in Planescape: Torment mods beyond general bug fixes or restoring unfinished quests. Why? Because to me, Torment is primarily about its central storyline, and messing with that is as obnoxious as...say, adding a few new characters or plotlines to a newly released version of Casablanca or something. Torment is not the optimal game for modding, to me.

 

But then you have games like BG2 or Arcanum, which have their central storyline, but that central storyline is very obviously not the most important point. The most important point is the exploration and the quests and the companions that surround it, the atmosphere and the world and the characters. In such cases, not everything added to the mix is good (yeah, there are plenty of horrible mods out there), but if it is good, it can add immeasurably to your enjoyment of the game. To sneer off everything that comes after the developers release a game because it wasn't made by the developers is close minded in the extreme, and as far as I'm concerned the surprising number of people in this thread who dismiss mods out of hand are only doing a disservice to themselves.

 

But I digress. You're right that a good game is likely to be played by fans for nostalgia's sake and played long after it has been forgotten by the vast majority of the gaming world, moddable or no. God knows I have had a few (unmodded) games on my computer that have been there a lot longer than they reasonably should have been.

 

The game itself, however, remains as it was. It will never have new things to see or do. For some games, that's fine; it fits the game. For others, to have new things to see and do is a pleasure which keeps a game popular long after it should reasonably have faded into memory.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Death Machine Miyagi

[IcyDeadPeople]

More than new regions or new races added by the developers, this is what I hope for most: a game which is easy, or at least not difficult, to tinker with. This is, for me, at the heart of the Infinity Engine's success.

 

Baldur's Gate 2 still has mods being made for it. Still. The game was released in 2000, for god's sakes. The community survives not just because its a great game, but because its a great game you can rather easily add things to, change rules or change gameplay, fix lingering bugs, add new quests, new characters, new romances, new whatever, all of which can fit more or less seamlessly with the original game (depending on the skill of the modder, of course). Some of the mod work is fantastic, as good as anything in the original game. Some of it is awful, but eh, Sturgeon's Law and all that. What matters is that its a fantastic platform and story on which to build new things.

 

Basically, when they say they're harkening back to the classic days of Baldur's Gate, what I hope for most is that the game world is compelling enough and the game itself simple enough to mod that it has the same kind of longevity we've seen with BG2. Hopefully that isn't an unrealistic expectation.

 

I feel the same way, really hoping for official mod tools, ideally with some sort of one-click integration for publishing our mods on Steam workshop. For me, this would enhance the value of the game.

[Tauron]

I think there are some awsome mods out there made by fans. Several games I just cant play vanilla anymore. I hope devs make game modder friendly.

[TrashMan]

Modding is always good.

Sure some say if you don't like the game iwhout mods then it's not good. That's the stupidest statemetn in the history of forever.

Nothing is perfect, nor will anything satisfy everyone.

No matter how good something is, mods cna make it BETTER.

[Troller]

Every once in a while there is one thread about mods or multiplayer or both, this isn't skyrim, where you need to get your waifus asap into the game, mods should be a stretch goal at 5 million or something, I have downloaded mods for most games ive played, and most of them suck, only good ones are bug fixes, yeah the mod community is just some kids, none of them are professionals like the obsidian developer, wanting to change stuff into the game is like saying Hurr im better than the professionals

[Nakia]

Every once in a while there is one thread about mods or multiplayer or both, this isn't skyrim, where you need to get your waifus asap into the game, mods should be a stretch goal at 5 million or something, I have downloaded mods for most games ive played, and most of them suck, only good ones are bug fixes, yeah the mod community is just some kids, none of them are professionals like the obsidian developer, wanting to change stuff into the game is like saying Hurr im better than the professionals

 

I disagree heartily with this. Most of the modders I know and I know quite a few, have a lot of experience, make mods that add a lot to games, some are texturing, some are bug fixes and some are quest mods. Some are small and some are large. It is up to the player to choose wisely. Mods enhance a game, make it more nearly perfect for the individual player. You may not like mods buth there are many, many people who do.

 

I think Obsidian should concentrate on making the best game possible and then do a toolkit. A good toolkit will allow talented modders to fine tune the game. This will bring pleasure to many players and will prolong the life of the game. I doubt that Obsidian is going to take anything away from the game in order to make a toolkit so I do not understand why people are afraid of the idea and the request.