Tropes vs Women

[draft1983]

I am player women and please I would more realistic for the armor for women, I don't want a style Lara Croft or with big boobs for fanbase male. I am ok for variety for women : fat, ugly, beauty, etc...

 

Interesting choice of avatar there...

 

was thinking the same, the irony

[Monkcrab]

Obsidian has repeatedly shown that they can write female characters as interesting, respectable characters in their own right. In fact, they write every character interestingly and respectably regardless of gender, period. That's part of why I like them : by not trying to have a message, they're actually sending out the most gender-positive message of empowerment of them all.

 

Didn't someone say somewhere that Commander Shepard was hailed as an iconic female character only because Bioware was too cheap to treat her differently from Male Shepard, which makes her just as interesting as a 'character' as he is, without all the rest of the 'politically correct' baggage? (If not more, because Jennifer Hale.)

Edited September 23, 2012 by Monkcrab

[novander]

"Fantasy" world is "Fantasy". As long as there isn't any hidden agenda behind any of the stuff

Not being actively misogynistic is not enough. The social norm - particuarly in male-dominated subcultures like gaming - is already one where women are treated as second class citizens. I'm not suggesting this game should be a feminist haven where every NPC the character meets screams about the cruelties of patriachy, I'd just like to see gaming progress towards a more liberal, equal society, and game companies like Obsidian, known for the quality of their writing, should be leading the way.

 

Edit: which they are already. Reading through again it sounded like I was criticising them, I'm not. I just want to see that continue.

Edited September 23, 2012 by novander

[mya79]

ha ha so ironic for my avatar, it's just an avatar !

[Badmojo]

It is a fantasy setting, I really do NOT want it to be politically correct game. You know the trope I am sick of seeing? The strong independent women who needs no man, that has been in most games. (...) I hate games where you are supposed to believe there is no sexism/racism going around and everyone gets along just spiffy. Those are boring and have been overdone to death because publishers do not want to offend anybody.

I think the OP is more asking for female characters who actually have their own character and personality, not just another female trope, even one arguably seen as positive sexism.

 

I do want a politically correct game, not in the sense that everyone gets along all happy and smiley - I agree, that would be boring - but in the sense that racism is highlighted as vile, and that female characters get equal screentime and agency within the world.

 

I don't like the argument "it's a fantasy setting", it's rings too similar to "it's just a game." The problem is that games don't exist in a vacuum. Selling a fantasy setting where most of the female characters players meet work as prostitutes to an audience that is - let's face it - mostly male may seem like good marketing, but would only end up reinforcing the notion of women as sex objects. (I'd like to make it clear I'm not suggesting that this is what Obsidian plan on doing, I'm just using it as an example.)

 

That said, I don't think Obsidian need Sarkeesian's help on this, they've shown themselves pretty good in this regard already. I donated to her kickstarter and look forward to seeing the results. I may not agree with everything she says, but oh man did it piss me off that people were saying she shouldn't be doing this. The reaction to the video - provoked or not, I choose to believe not - shows that someone really does need to highlight the gender politics of gaming.

 

I don't want the argument that it is offending women. Its virtual people in a fantasy setting. We are on oposite spectrums then. The way I look at it is, do they cater to straight men? Yes, that is the majority of RPG gamers. I am sure you are about to pull the numberse that women gamers like to pull up showing that (esa? statistics) 47% of gamers are female. That is a flat lie, or more precisely, that covers ALL games, mobile, facebook, etc. Women who play hardcore old school RPGs or project eternity like games? I would be surprised if its even near 5%. I am also sure someone is about to use the argument that it needs to cater to women to bring them into games like this. Wrong, these games are already a nitch market, most women are not interested in this genre. It has been shown that there are PLENTY of games that cater to women, do I want them change and cater to men because I feel I am not targeted? Nope, to each their own.

 

I like to use the bookstore example, there is books for everybody, there are genres that lean toware men and women readers. Take the romance section, that is designed for women obviously. The men are sexualized beyond belief, do I go to the authors and demand they change the writing to stop writing men as sex objects? DO I tell them that they should open up romance to men even though the vast majority of men are not interested in the genre? No, there are other books that cater to my taste. Romance caters to women because that is their biggest market, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most hardcore games like RPG's cater to mens power fantasy because that is there biggest market.

 

I do apologize if my example isn't great. I explained this much better in another forum a while back, but I cannot find it. Still, I just want to play a believable game setting that isn't shoving political correctness down my throat. Its escapism, not a political advertisement.

[limaxophobiacq]

Is there really no place on the internet were I can escape this silly debacle? With the notable exception of the ridiculously dressed and proportioned women in Torment, which I'm pretty sure we wont see again, the team at Obsidian has been pretty solid at creating great female characters who aren't sexualized cliches (the females in Torment were obviously great characters, they just looked kind of silly).

 

Anyway in a world were magic is real and child mortality most likely* is a lot lower than IRL olden times (quite possibly the leading cause of female subjugation), physical strength isn't as much a requirement for beating people to death (because souls & magic), and gods & goddesses exist and are fairly equal in power, I'd be surprised if the world wasn't a lot less sexist than ours has been.

 

*I'm assuming the setting wont be that gritty

Edited September 23, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[Rostere]

Anita Sarkeesian has really banal commentary. Get the lady behind Requires Only That You Hate involved. She's even a Planescape fan! It's a match made in heaven.

That was a wonderful blog.

[Estelindis]

Women who play hardcore old school RPGs or project eternity like games? I would be surprised if its even near 5%.

I'd love to know upon what possible basis you are pulling up this number. Among the many women gamers whom I know, most were first introduced to games via Baldur's Gate and the like. Many have not bothered gaming much at all since then, and just watch their partners gaming, because they can't get that kind of RPG anymore. They miss it. Of course, this is just my personal experience.

[Monkcrab]

It is a fantasy setting, I really do NOT want it to be politically correct game. You know the trope I am sick of seeing? The strong independent women who needs no man, that has been in most games. (...) I hate games where you are supposed to believe there is no sexism/racism going around and everyone gets along just spiffy. Those are boring and have been overdone to death because publishers do not want to offend anybody.

I think the OP is more asking for female characters who actually have their own character and personality, not just another female trope, even one arguably seen as positive sexism.

 

I do want a politically correct game, not in the sense that everyone gets along all happy and smiley - I agree, that would be boring - but in the sense that racism is highlighted as vile, and that female characters get equal screentime and agency within the world.

 

I don't like the argument "it's a fantasy setting", it's rings too similar to "it's just a game." The problem is that games don't exist in a vacuum. Selling a fantasy setting where most of the female characters players meet work as prostitutes to an audience that is - let's face it - mostly male may seem like good marketing, but would only end up reinforcing the notion of women as sex objects. (I'd like to make it clear I'm not suggesting that this is what Obsidian plan on doing, I'm just using it as an example.)

 

That said, I don't think Obsidian need Sarkeesian's help on this, they've shown themselves pretty good in this regard already. I donated to her kickstarter and look forward to seeing the results. I may not agree with everything she says, but oh man did it piss me off that people were saying she shouldn't be doing this. The reaction to the video - provoked or not, I choose to believe not - shows that someone really does need to highlight the gender politics of gaming.

 

I don't want the argument that it is offending women. Its virtual people in a fantasy setting. We are on oposite spectrums then. The way I look at it is, do they cater to straight men? Yes, that is the majority of RPG gamers. I am sure you are about to pull the numberse that women gamers like to pull up showing that (esa? statistics) 47% of gamers are female. That is a flat lie, or more precisely, that covers ALL games, mobile, facebook, etc. Women who play hardcore old school RPGs or project eternity like games? I would be surprised if its even near 5%. I am also sure someone is about to use the argument that it needs to cater to women to bring them into games like this. Wrong, these games are already a nitch market, most women are not interested in this genre. It has been shown that there are PLENTY of games that cater to women, do I want them change and cater to men because I feel I am not targeted? Nope, to each their own.

 

I like to use the bookstore example, there is books for everybody, there are genres that lean toware men and women readers. Take the romance section, that is designed for women obviously. The men are sexualized beyond belief, do I go to the authors and demand they change the writing to stop writing men as sex objects? DO I tell them that they should open up romance to men even though the vast majority of men are not interested in the genre? No, there are other books that cater to my taste. Romance caters to women because that is their biggest market, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most hardcore games like RPG's cater to mens power fantasy because that is there biggest market.

 

I do apologize if my example isn't great. I explained this much better in another forum a while back, but I cannot find it. Still, I just want to play a believable game setting that isn't shoving political correctness down my throat. Its escapism, not a political advertisement.

 

tl;dr, you're saying 'get out of the boys' entertainment, women'. Not to be rude, but perhaps you might want to rethink what you're really saying and apologizing for.

 

Most women in my life hate romance books with a passion, btw. Perception goes a long way towards self-perpetuation.

[mya79]

I will be curious of % women play to rpg games, before 10 years I was the along women in my friends/familly play games now I think they are more womans play games

and I am happy for that ^^

[novander]

The audience for the game will be mostly male, yes. This doesn't mean it should be targetted at men. That's not to say I want things put in specifically to attract a female audience, only that things to attract a male audience too often means things to attract a horny 15-year old male audience, and can leave what female audience there is feel excluded at best. I want a game of heroic, often violent, badassery, tackling mature issues with complex ethical decisions beyond a simple "good" or "evil" choice. I don't see why we can't have that and have women treated as equals.

[Orogun01]

The audience for the game will be mostly male, yes. This doesn't mean it should be targetted at men. That's not to say I want things put in specifically to attract a female audience, only that things to attract a male audience too often means things to attract a horny 15-year old male audience, and can leave what female audience there is feel excluded at best. I want a game of heroic, often violent, badassery, tackling mature issues with complex ethical decisions beyond a simple "good" or "evil" choice. I don't see why we can't have that and have women treated as equals.

Because having an universe that treats women as equals might be unrealistic? Not trying to be offensive but women and men aren't equal, that doesn't mean that they can both enjoy a game in different ways. So rather than tailoring a politically correct and safe experience that won't offend women, devs should really be asking: "What do women want out of their games?"

[Monte Carlo]

Another thread inspired by sociologists trying to despoil gaming with some old-school Gramscian bull****. Begone! IT'S A GAME.

[novander]

Sorry, let me clarify.

 

edit: Completely re-written this post because I don't feel the last clarification actually clarified anything,

 

I am sometimes not making it clear when I am talking about treatment of women in the game world and when I am talking about treatment of women in the real world.

 

In the game world, society can be sexist but in the real world it shouldn't be. So, if a culture in the Project Eternity world is sexist, I would like that sexism to be presented as unjust.

Edited September 23, 2012 by novander

[kenup]

The audience for the game will be mostly male, yes. This doesn't mean it should be targetted at men. That's not to say I want things put in specifically to attract a female audience, only that things to attract a male audience too often means things to attract a horny 15-year old male audience, and can leave what female audience there is feel excluded at best. I want a game of heroic, often violent, badassery, tackling mature issues with complex ethical decisions beyond a simple "good" or "evil" choice. I don't see why we can't have that and have women treated as equals.

Having biased cultures and/or factions won't mean the developers are biased, or that the women in game, actually are inferior. If anything your character could prove more that women are not inferior through their actions.

[evdk]

Anita Sarkeesian has really banal commentary. Get the lady behind Requires Only That You Hate involved. She's even a Planescape fan! It's a match made in heaven.

 

I'd like to note now that all too often fantasy settings (or even fictional reproductions of real-world history) engage in "historical misogyny" that is nothing of the sort. The forms which modern misogyny takes are very different from the forms it took in the 6th century, the 11th century, the 16th century, and indeed even the 19th century.

Roguey, is that you?

[Badmojo]

It is a fantasy setting, I really do NOT want it to be politically correct game. You know the trope I am sick of seeing? The strong independent women who needs no man, that has been in most games. (...) I hate games where you are supposed to believe there is no sexism/racism going around and everyone gets along just spiffy. Those are boring and have been overdone to death because publishers do not want to offend anybody.

I think the OP is more asking for female characters who actually have their own character and personality, not just another female trope, even one arguably seen as positive sexism.

 

I do want a politically correct game, not in the sense that everyone gets along all happy and smiley - I agree, that would be boring - but in the sense that racism is highlighted as vile, and that female characters get equal screentime and agency within the world.

 

I don't like the argument "it's a fantasy setting", it's rings too similar to "it's just a game." The problem is that games don't exist in a vacuum. Selling a fantasy setting where most of the female characters players meet work as prostitutes to an audience that is - let's face it - mostly male may seem like good marketing, but would only end up reinforcing the notion of women as sex objects. (I'd like to make it clear I'm not suggesting that this is what Obsidian plan on doing, I'm just using it as an example.)

 

That said, I don't think Obsidian need Sarkeesian's help on this, they've shown themselves pretty good in this regard already. I donated to her kickstarter and look forward to seeing the results. I may not agree with everything she says, but oh man did it piss me off that people were saying she shouldn't be doing this. The reaction to the video - provoked or not, I choose to believe not - shows that someone really does need to highlight the gender politics of gaming.

 

I don't want the argument that it is offending women. Its virtual people in a fantasy setting. We are on oposite spectrums then. The way I look at it is, do they cater to straight men? Yes, that is the majority of RPG gamers. I am sure you are about to pull the numberse that women gamers like to pull up showing that (esa? statistics) 47% of gamers are female. That is a flat lie, or more precisely, that covers ALL games, mobile, facebook, etc. Women who play hardcore old school RPGs or project eternity like games? I would be surprised if its even near 5%. I am also sure someone is about to use the argument that it needs to cater to women to bring them into games like this. Wrong, these games are already a nitch market, most women are not interested in this genre. It has been shown that there are PLENTY of games that cater to women, do I want them change and cater to men because I feel I am not targeted? Nope, to each their own.

 

I like to use the bookstore example, there is books for everybody, there are genres that lean toware men and women readers. Take the romance section, that is designed for women obviously. The men are sexualized beyond belief, do I go to the authors and demand they change the writing to stop writing men as sex objects? DO I tell them that they should open up romance to men even though the vast majority of men are not interested in the genre? No, there are other books that cater to my taste. Romance caters to women because that is their biggest market, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most hardcore games like RPG's cater to mens power fantasy because that is there biggest market.

 

I do apologize if my example isn't great. I explained this much better in another forum a while back, but I cannot find it. Still, I just want to play a believable game setting that isn't shoving political correctness down my throat. Its escapism, not a political advertisement.

 

tl;dr, you're saying 'get out of the boys' entertainment, women'. Not to be rude, but perhaps you might want to rethink what you're really saying and apologizing for.

 

Most women in my life hate romance books with a passion, btw. Perception goes a long way towards self-perpetuation.

 

No and THIS is what pisses me off, any time someone tries to argue, you automatically get called women hating, sexist, rapist apologist..etc. Oh, you might not have said that, but that is what you were implying. Perhaps you should read what I wrote. I want games that do NOT try to pander to political correctness puritans. I want a game that is real and gritty. A lot of examples of great women in history in here, you know why they were great? Because they were RARE. Its because the background had sexism and racism. If eveybody got along and racism/sexism did not exist, they would not even be a foot note.

 

I have no problem with there being strong famale characters, but they should be rare, I do not want the world to be unrealistic where there is no difference between men and women. In all of human history there has been sexism and racism, but we are supposed to believe that everybody put aside their differences like that, even in a fantasy setting? Then there should be no war, no problems then. bah, whatever. Lets make another boring political correct game where men and women are treated exactly the same, we will have some token race to hate instead of having true racism in our on species. Yea, this is what I paid for, the same politically correct social crap that comes out of EAware. Pushing the envelope, yea right.

[TrashMan]

You say you don't care, but how often has your apathy been genuinely tested? How many examples can you give of works that have negatively stereotyped an overwhelming majority of the characters who have the same demographic, sex, and/or ethnicity as yourself? It's easy to say that you don't care about this happening to Caucasian characters if, in fact, there's very little chance of this actually happening to Caucasian characters.

 

Actually, off the top of my head, the biggest douches in gaming have been Caucasian.

 

 

I really don't expect the game to cater to my every whim.

Neither do I expect aht every culture/nation in the game is structured exactly as I want.

 

As long as there is one decent characte, ti's all that takes. but I dont' evne consider that as a equirement. Sure, I might like it more if it's like that, but why should I be catered to?

 

 

 

What I want is for (1) the world to make sense and for me (2) to be given the chance to cause changes in it.

Also, there should be conflict in that world and allow the player to take sides or impose his own. This is not a my little pony world.

 

I fully disagree with the idea we should be able to star revolutions and talk everyone into our view on things.

[Badmojo]

I will be curious of % women play to rpg games, before 10 years I was the along women in my friends/familly play games now I think they are more womans play games

and I am happy for that ^^

 

Yea, I am curious. Ok, 5% was probably low, but I still do not believe it is actually very high though, at least not the double digits.

[Monte Carlo]

Actually, most evil characters in popular culture are white men with European accents. Particularly British and Russian accents. As a white man with a British accent I couldn't care less, because generally most rational people don't mistake me for the evil bad guy in a game or movie. And I think our accents suit the archetype, as it happens, as much as German ones did thirty years ago.

 

Do I start a fiery crusade about this? No.

 

Most achingly PC artists, who are usually left-of-centre in any case, go out of their way to shoe-horn non-traditional characters into movies and games. Again, I'm relaxed about it and I see why they might choose to do it. But no, to Long-Marchers you must always be aggrieved. No concession is enough. Everything is an insult.

 

I tire of it.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

In "historically misogynist" societies, women were second-class citizens because they're, on average, weaker than men, and thus less capable of defending themselves (thank you, captain!).

But in a fantasy world, where people can develop magical abilities which a) are equally frequent in both sexes and b) make their wielders able to raze a city to the ground... well, they are not so defenseless.

Thus, there is no reason not to treat them with somewhat more respect (of course, non-magic user women may still be subject to abuse, but the core cultural reason such abuse was justified in such societies is men's perceived superiority; and when women have this power, the cultural basis for such beliefs is somewhat diminished).

 

Well, that's what I think, anyway. Feel free to point out any logical fallacies if I'm wrong.

Edited September 23, 2012 by aluminiumtrioxid

[TrashMan]

Not being actively misogynistic is not enough.

 

No.

 

*****

 

I'm sick and tired of these thread. Not just here but in every forum. I'm beginning to DESPISE Political Correctnes in all forms...simply because of posts like this.

People who want to force it everyhwere and insist that if you're not spreading their belief/value system like a Jehovas witenss on speed, you are a very bad and immoral person.

Peopel to whom everything is an issue and everything must be a platform for the mto express their dissatisfaction.

 

I still recall the Resident Evil "contraversy" with black zombies (becasue it was set in africa) adn the uproar. And no one complained about the previous several games with white zombies...

 

I'm sick of it.

 

Sick of it beyond conventional words to express it. I don't care which race/sex/belief/whatever you think is under attack or offended or misrepreted.

The next person to start preching PC to me and showing it in my face, will face a crusade against him so brural, that the God-Emperor and the Inquisiton will wince in horror and Khorne himself will loose his lust for blood.

[Monkcrab]

 

<snip>

 

No and THIS is what pisses me off, any time someone tries to argue, you automatically get called women hating, sexist, rapist apologist..etc. Oh, you might not have said that, but that is what you were implying. Perhaps you should read what I wrote. I want games that do NOT try to pander to political correctness puritans. I want a game that is real and gritty. A lot of examples of great women in history in here, you know why they were great? Because they were RARE. Its because the background had sexism and racism. If eveybody got along and racism/sexism did not exist, they would not even be a foot note.

 

I have no problem with there being strong famale characters, but they should be rare, I do not want the world to be unrealistic where there is no difference between men and women. In all of human history there has been sexism and racism, but we are supposed to believe that everybody put aside their differences like that, even in a fantasy setting? Then there should be no war, no problems then. bah, whatever. Lets make another boring political correct game where men and women are treated exactly the same, we will have some token race to hate instead of having true racism in our on species. Yea, this is what I paid for, the same politically correct social crap that comes out of EAware. Pushing the envelope, yea right.

 

I was not commenting on what you want for women in the game. Personally, I don't really want politically correct, whitewashed, tropified women in games, either. They're unrealistic as all hell, which makes me hate them worse than damsels in distress. At least damsels in distress don't go around waving the 'look at me! I'm totally not a gratification object or anything!' flag at it.

 

I was commenting on how you said that RPGs are basically targeted towards men with few women playing them, which makes it fine to completely cater to men without addressing the concerns of women. i.e. women's concerns should not affect RPGs, which is men's entertainment. You suplemented your argument with the fact that romance novels are for women, and men are sexualized there as well, so 'to each their own'. Which is a fallacy. Romance novels are closer to porn for women, while the RPG argument is better served by comparisons to comic books and sport magazines. Traditionally geared for men, with no reason to do so beyond 'just because'.

 

I have no wish to call you women-hating or anything of the sort. I did, however, wish to point out that by supporting the perpetuation of privileged viewpoints does nothing to serve your argument.

 

Also, calling other statistics lies when your own statistics is conjecture also does not make your argument stronger.

 

If this happens every time you make such an argument, perhaps you should REALLY rethink what your argument looks like to other people. Others in the thread not wanting 'empowered women in the game because setting' did just fine. In fact, your first post before this was not bad. Wording is your friend.

[Andre]

As long as Fiend Slayer's Super Plate Armor +5 isn't a bikini, I'm fine with everything else.

[kenup]

I still recall the Resident Evil "contraversy" with black zombies (becasue it was set in africa) adn the uproar. And no one complained about the previous several games with white zombies...

 

That was the stupidest controversy thing I had seen in the internet at the time. But as far as I remember, only idiots like moviebob promoted it.