Gay and Lesbian Inclusiveness!

[SilverMoonDragon2]

Hm...from personal experience, LGBPT people are not as much a "minority" as you seem to think. I'm not going to pretend I know everything though, that's just been my experience. It's not the same thing as comparing "red toys" and "blue toys", this is about people, and NOT excluding people (in this case video games) just because some people think they're a "minority" or some people think it's somehow "wrong"...just my opinion.

 

OK, I'll bite - what does the "P" stand for?

 

Pansexual

[c0wb0ycliche]

So a minority feels catered and pandered to?

People tend to like seeing characters they can identify with in various ways.

 

If you consider that pandering, much of the game is.

True but you don't see those people getting together and petitioning for representation, and furthermore you don't always see those characters always represented in every game. It differs from game to game based around what the devs want, and not what they are pressured into doing by entitled people.

 

Most minorities are represented by default nowadays and do not NEED to get together and petition for representation. There is still major opposition to gay characters in games (or dialogue options that allow players to role-play as gay).

So what if there is major opposition to gay people? Go out and fight against the discrimination instead of acting like you're being discriminated in a game if you're not represented in it. I mean why are you wasting your time here asking for gay characters in a video game instead of fighting for gay marriage or to be treated equally. I mean do you see how absurd that is?

 

Oh believe me I do lol.

[Concerned Reader]

I support "The more choices and diversity in RPGs, the better" attitude, whether it's more interesting gameplay, a more expansive story etc, or characters with different sexualities and different political views.

 

Pandering arbitrarily to peoples' real life issues does not make for more interesting gameplay. It makes for juvenile embarrassment. When I'm playing a videogame and it clumsily and/or blatantly attempts to tackle contemporary social issues I feel stupid, patronized and embarrassed. As has been said, FO:NV did it right. It was subtle and did not present itself as anything extraordinary.

And that was perfectly fine. As was the inclusion of a strictly gay character in Mass Effect 3. It wasn't flaunted. It wasn't their sole defining characteristic. It was just a realistic part of who they were. And that's all that's really needed. It acknowledges that, yes, gay people do exist. What do you know? They're just like everybody else in the world.

[Continuity]

Don't explicitly mention anyone's sexuality at all in the game, and then you can imagine that this or that NPC is homo or straight or whatever.

[Concerned Reader]

Don't explicitly mention anyone's sexuality at all in the game, and then you can imagine that this or that NPC is homo or straight or whatever.

The problem with this is that it's really really hard to actually do. If you walk into a bar and the bartender mentions that his wife runs the Inn next door, WELP he just revealed his sexuality. It would actually be even more creativily stifling than any other option.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Concerned Reader

[Grimlorn]

So what if there is major opposition to gay people? Go out and fight against the discrimination instead of acting like you're being discriminated in a game if you're not represented in it. I mean why are you wasting your time here asking for gay characters in a video game instead of fighting for gay marriage or to be treated equally. I mean do you see how absurd that is?

Nice logical fallacy there. How do you know that they aren't? I know that I am. I go to a Lutheran University, and within a months time I'll be delivering a speech on GLBT awareness. Asking for realistic inclusion within the media is also asking for equality. It's the same fight in different theaters of war.

Yes because fighting for equal rights and the right to marry in the real world is a lot like fighting for having special characters in a video game that explain their sexuality to the player to pander to gay people. Different theaters of war indeed.

[Meshugger]

Studies have shown from various sources, which includes careful selective group testing, that consolidating creative resources in order to accommodate most demographics will increase profitability by as much as 5-10%. The finished product will reflect the needs and interest of the current market with optimal accurancy. The marketing has shown it. It is a great dollar, wonderful dollar, it is a huge market, i can assure you.

 

Or of course Obsidian can work according to how George Carlin said to a heckler: "I am here for me; you are all here for me; no one is here for you"

Obsidian wouldn't be doing a kickstarter if they just wanted to make the most money by making mainstream games. They'd just make AAA action RPGs that are shallow and pander to all groups while selling 3+ million copies. Of course they might end up like Bioware where DA2 and ME3 weren't well received and TOR is about to go free to play because they tried too hard to pander to their market and made terrible games instead.

 

I think my point went a bit over your head, i even added a quote by Carlin in the end to make sure that people got the joke

I got the point of your post and the joke at the end. If you were being sarcastic with the market info then yeah I didn't get that because it sounded like you were trying to make a legitimate point. If you were making a legitimate point then you didn't get the points in my post.

 

I was channeling Bill Hicks ideas' on marketers and their influence on product placement as a joke (google it, cannot link it due to the clip containing cuss words).

 

But for the rest of you: Let Obsidian include whatever character they want according to what they feel like. Maybe it is even happens to be a gay one, but difference would be that it was because they feel it is important to them in their creation, not because people have banded together and requested it. The difference is that the former stems from artist's own vision, the other is just pandering, which is shameless at best and embarrassing at worst.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Meshugger

[TwinkieGorilla]

If you walk into a bar and the bartender mentions that his wife runs the Inn next door, WELP he just revealed his sexuality.

 

Not necessarily.

[evdk]

If you walk into a bar and the bartender mentions that his wife runs the Inn next door, WELP he just revealed his sexuality.

 

Unless his wife is a dude. Psyche!

Edited September 18, 2012 by evdk

[c0wb0ycliche]

"If one out of every 20 characters you encounter, or two out of a dozen companions are gay or lesbian, that shouldn't offend you. Unless you are a bigot."

 

By definition a bigot is: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

 

Careful with tossing the bigot word around. I think people use that word too often....just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean they are bigoted, especially if their posts are done in a respecful manner. Someone could argue being intolerant of another opinion that doesn't agree with the OP is bigoted...because they are obstinately devoted to his or her own opinion. Not arguing either way here, just saying words have meaning and people have different viewpoints and opinions. Thats what makes life great.

 

Let me clarify why its bigoted, and why every bit of inclusiveness is critical.

 

Because, thankfully, we have made great strides in regard to racism, no one needs to make a thread suggesting that they include dark skinned characters. They will. And if anyone suggested that they shouldn't, didn't need to, or that it was "pandering," everyone but the most racist among us would consider that offensive and bigoted.

 

We live in a world where people think (rightly) that we don't have to respect the opinion of a racist that dark skinned people are inferior or unnatural, but unfortunately we should (wrongly) respect the view that gay and lesbian people are unnatural, sick, broken or inappropriate. This, like racism, shouldn't be tolerated. Because, like it or not, its bigotry.

 

Jusyifying it with religion doesn't make it not bigotry.

 

Substitute "dark skinned" everywhere any post in this thread mentions gay and lesbian people and you'll realize why "bigot" is exactly the right word for those who don't want gay characters in this or any other game.

[Shadenuat]

Let Obsidian include whatever character they want according to what they feel like. Maybe it is even happens to be a gay one, but difference would be that it was because they feel it is important to them in their creation, not because people have banded together and requested it. The difference is that the former stems from artist's own vision, the other is just pandering, which is shameless at best and embarrassing at worst.

 

Not bad.

[Concerned Reader]

Yes because fighting for equal rights and the right to marry in the real world is a lot like fighting for having special characters in a video game that explain their sexuality to the player to pander to gay people. Different theaters of war indeed.

Way to completely not read any of the other posts in the thread. We're not telling the developers which characters should be gay, how they should interact with the PC, nor how many gay characters there needs to be. All we're saying is that they should include GLBT people in their thought process for character and NPC design. You keep on using the word pandering. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Progressive_Stupidity]

So a minority feels catered and pandered to?

People tend to like seeing characters they can identify with in various ways.

 

If you consider that pandering, much of the game is.

True but you don't see those people getting together and petitioning for representation, and furthermore you don't always see those characters always represented in every game. It differs from game to game based around what the devs want, and not what they are pressured into doing by entitled people.

 

Most minorities are represented by default nowadays and do not NEED to get together and petition for representation. There is still major opposition to gay characters in games (or dialogue options that allow players to role-play as gay).

So what if there is major opposition to gay people? Go out and fight against the discrimination instead of acting like you're being discriminated in a game if you're not represented in it. I mean why are you wasting your time here asking for gay characters in a video game instead of fighting for gay marriage or to be treated equally. I mean do you see how absurd that is?

 

Um, because it's 11:20pm and I have an extremely naughty puppy to look after at the minute?

 

It's not even a big political thing to me. I'm gay. I like roleplaying games. I like to roleplay gay characters. Of course I could IMAGINE that characters in game acknowledge me as gay, or a mage, or from the Forests of Xanth but it's all the more enjoyable for me if the game actively supports these aspects of my character. Straight people don't have to bother bringing up the suggestion for their inclusion, because it's pretty much a given that they will be able to play a straight character if they so desire. I'm not 'acting like I'm being discriminated against if I'm not represented in a game'. I'm showing support for a feature I want that may not necessarily be considered if not otherwise requested.

[Concerned Reader]

If you walk into a bar and the bartender mentions that his wife runs the Inn next door, WELP he just revealed his sexuality.

 

Unless his wife is a dude. Psyche!

I would be entirely okay with them including a transgender character that isn't just the butt of a joke. That would be a huge step forwards in Transgender awareness.

[Sarog]

http://en.wikipedia....mong_LGBT_youth

 

Around 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. Often times because they feel rejected by their parents, by their school, by their friends, and by society. A lot of the time, a young gay kid may not even know that there are others out there like him. He may think he's all alone, that he's some horrible deviation from the cultural norm and that there is no place for him in the world. You know why that is? Because nobody talks about LGBT people. There is no exposure, there is no communication. 5-10% of the population is GLBT. Walking around a Texas Highschool, you'd think it was 0.5%. In a campus of 2300 people, that's 115-230 people who are surpressing an integral part of their self identity.

 

So yes, GLBT people are going to petition for inclusion in things. It is not asking for special treatment. It is asking to be acknowledged. To have someone, somewhere, say "yes, you do exist, and that's fine." And that can save lives.

 

This is hugely important. If our culture, which includes video games, made these kids feel they were ok the way they are, this number wouldn't be so high.

 

 

It isn't a video game company's responsibility to use its product, a source of entertainment, to champion real world demographics and to save them from depression, suicide, or anything else. That responsibility lies with parents, families, schools, communities, local government. You're making it sound like including gay-themed content isn't a choice for Obsidian with which to pursue their creative objectives, but a responsibility that is inherent to all media, with the implication that companies that don't include gay-themed content somehow share responsibility for things that, while tragic, have nothing to do with them.

 

You can't just force moral obligation onto people when they are not responsible for the things you are laying at their feet.

 

I live in Africa, and between aids, poverty, disease, and governmental corruption, there are millions of people on this continent who cannot afford food or healthcare. If it is up to you to decide that video game companies bear part of the responsibility for suicide among young people, then I can just as arbitrarily put the moral responsibility for Africa's problems on you. How about you live up to your moral responsibility by foregoing the purchase of the game, and instead donating your pledge to an initiative to distribute food and antiretroviral medication to low income African communities? No? Why not? Is it unpleasant to have someone try to guilt you into a position of responsibility that you never asked for?

 

P:E is a video-game in the making. A source of entertainment. Important to those of us who enjoy the medium, but a trivial, first world concern to be sure. Please don't politicize things like suicide rates to try to guilt the developer into making the game you want them to make. This is not a deadly serious issue with ramifications for the wider world, this is a discussion about a video game. Let the storytellers tell the stories they decide to tell without charging them with responsibility for problems that they didn't inflict on the world.

[duskwind]

Pretty much. Just don't make everyone(or anyone for that matter) player-sexual like DA2 and it's going to be fine.

 

So you're opposed to any bisexual characters at all? In an ideal world there'd be a huge range of potential companions of varied orientations giving everyone plenty of choice; but given the limitations of time and budget, player-sexual NPCs are a very sensible approach. If same-sex relationships are considered no big deal in this fantasy world, then it doesn't harm the NPC's character in any way.

 

No, they are a minority and should be treated like it, if you are in a business and majority of people like to buy blue colored toys, you won`t make millions of red colored toys to please a couple of guys.You want to sell thousand blue toys and make a profit, and please almost everyone

 

Or if you're a sensible businessperson, you make toys in both red and blue versions, but more of the blue; it's just a matter of changing the colour of the paint for some batches, a negligible expense that's far more than made up for by the extra sales to the red-preference minority.

 

Project Eternity is a role-playing game. It's pretty much unavoidable to be largely railroaded along the main plot, so having as much flexibility as possible in how you interact with your companions is one of the best ways the player can be given agency in the game.

[Ashram]

"If one out of every 20 characters you encounter, or two out of a dozen companions are gay or lesbian, that shouldn't offend you. Unless you are a bigot."

 

By definition a bigot is: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

 

Careful with tossing the bigot word around. I think people use that word too often....just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean they are bigoted, especially if their posts are done in a respecful manner. Someone could argue being intolerant of another opinion that doesn't agree with the OP is bigoted...because they are obstinately devoted to his or her own opinion. Not arguing either way here, just saying words have meaning and people have different viewpoints and opinions. Thats what makes life great.

 

Let me clarify why its bigoted, and why every bit of inclusiveness is critical.

 

Because, thankfully, we have made great strides in regard to racism, no one needs to make a thread suggesting that they include dark skinned characters. They will. And if anyone suggested that they shouldn't, didn't need to, or that it was "pandering," everyone but the most racist among us would consider that offensive and bigoted.

 

We live in a world where people think (rightly) that we don't have to respect the opinion of a racist that dark skinned people are inferior or unnatural, but unfortunately we should (wrongly) respect the view that gay and lesbian people are unnatural, sick, broken or inappropriate. This, like racism, shouldn't be tolerated. Because, like it or not, its bigotry.

 

Jusyifying it with religion doesn't make it not bigotry.

 

Substitute "dark skinned" everywhere any post in this thread mentions gay and lesbian people and you'll realize why "bigot" is exactly the right word for those who don't want gay characters in this or any other game.

 

Using extreme examples to define bigotry when someone on here disagrees is a false argument. No one here, from what I can tell has posted a flame against homosexuality. Some people don't want it added for some kind of crusade for inclusion. Save that kind of stuff for places where it counts...such as the debate on marriage, etc etc. Maybe some people don't like sexuality thrown in other people's face either, or political activism in a video game, or pandering to a vocal minorty for whatever reason.

 

If the game devs want to make a gay character for sake of the story, because that is some sort of important fact that is crucial to the storyline, then have at it. I personally think sexuality should be handled in a mature and intellectual manner whereby there is some imagination. Leaving that to the imagination could open up the possibility of a certain relationship being one that is homosexual in nature more often than not. Have characters who spend time together, etc etc etc and let your mind wander just how deep that relationship went over time. We don't need Witcher in your face sex to /roleplay/ a character.

[Grimlorn]

If you walk into a bar and the bartender mentions that his wife runs the Inn next door, WELP he just revealed his sexuality.

 

Unless his wife is a dude. Psyche!

Couldn't be bi because those people don't actually exist.

[Meshugger]

*sigh* another example, since it seems like some people doesn't understand the banality of pandering:

 

Gays didn't become accepted in the heavy metal scene because Judas Priest made a record on gay awareness, they became accepted because the singer in Judas Priest was gay.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Meshugger

[ilhdr]

Just don't make everysingle npc with sexual behaviour homosexual as in new vegas and it will be fine.

[Amused]

I think the LGBPT community should be included and get just as much recognition as the heterosexual community

 

Or how about the cRPG community where most people are more concerned about gameplay than crying out for the inclusion of blatant attempts at pandering to any consumer's sexual preferences, sex lives (or lack thereof), politics or religion? Yeah, how 'bout that.

 

Why is it OK debating (read: ask Obsidian to include) turn based combat, guns and strongholds, but not gay characters and/or storylines? Why is it ok to ask for fleshed out characters with personality, but not characters with certain character traits?

 

Why is the first up for debate, white the second should just end up being whatever Obsidian desides? Now, it is of course possible to say that everything should be made in the makers (hah!) image, but why are you here if you don't want to debate and hopefully contribute to the end product?

 

What the hell folks, what makes this issue any different from all the others being discussed?

 

 

[Nonek]

So how do you think that the inclusion of the LBGTPZ community should be handled realistically, in the Eternity setting.

 

Do you think that the rise of homosexuality will be mainly limited to the more populous areas, such as bustling city states and such. Whereas in the conservative and largely patriarchal societies of the tribal and clan civilisations it will be frowned upon, if not a banishment or killing offense, such as in Caesars Legion. Or could we see a reverse of that in some cultures, where the "savages" are fairly liberal in this respect.

 

Could a characters sexuality cause them to be targetted by religions or perhaps hatemobs if they flaunt it? Might certain merchants and quest givers refuse to serve the protagonist or npcs, because of rumours. This could also open up other dialogues, with temples of fertility and such. Good antagonists could be born from politicians scapegoating the protagonist with the usual buzzwords, decadent, profligate, ungodly etcetera. Might this be one of the axes that the saint of Godhammer citadel had to grind before the big bang.

[evdk]

*sigh* another example, since it seems like some people doesn't understand the banality of pandering:

 

Gays didn't become accepted in the heavy metal scene because Judas Priest made a record on gay awareness, they became accepted because the singer in Judas Priest was gay.

They became accepted because of Manowar and their suggestive podium presentation. Haha.

[Continuity]

Yes because fighting for equal rights and the right to marry in the real world is a lot like fighting for having special characters in a video game that explain their sexuality to the player to pander to gay people. Different theaters of war indeed.

Way to completely not read any of the other posts in the thread. We're not telling the developers which characters should be gay, how they should interact with the PC, nor how many gay characters there needs to be. All we're saying is that they should include GLBT people in their thought process for character and NPC design. You keep on using the word pandering. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

I don't think you have to worry about it though to be honest, since Obs has a history of including or wanting to include LGTASDGÅKAS people in their games. Remember Gann in MotB, I seem to remember that MCA wanted him to be bisexual but I think the publisher stopped that. And as you already know there's Arcade Gannon and those BoS girls in NV. If they have a good idea for a LGTADSGGPTM character, they'll probably include it.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Continuity

[Concerned Reader]

So how do you think that the inclusion of the LBGTPZ community should be handled realistically, in the Eternity setting.

 

Do you think that the rise of homosexuality will be mainly limited to the more populous areas, such as bustling city states and such. Whereas in the conservative and largely patriarchal societies of the tribal and clan civilisations it will be frowned upon, if not a banishment or killing offense, such as in Caesars Legion. Or could we see a reverse of that in some cultures, where the "savages" are fairly liberal in this respect.

 

Could a characters sexuality cause them to be targetted by religions or perhaps hatemobs if they flaunt it? Might certain merchants and quest givers refuse to serve the protagonist or npcs, because of rumours. This could also open up other dialogues, with temples of fertility and such. Good antagonists could be born from politicians scapegoating the protagonist with the usual buzzwords, decadent, profligate, ungodly etcetera. Might this be one of the axes that the saint of Godhammer citadel had to grind before the big bang.

Sure, why not. I don't mind different cultures within the game viewing sexuality differently. It'd be a realistic way to approach it.