Gay and Lesbian Inclusiveness!

[Meshugger]

Studies have shown from various sources, which includes careful selective group testing, that consolidating creative resources in order to accommodate most demographics will increase profitability by as much as 5-10%. The finished product will reflect the needs and interest of the current market with optimal accurancy. The marketing has shown it. It is a great dollar, wonderful dollar, it is a huge market, i can assure you.

 

Or of course Obsidian can work according to how George Carlin said to a heckler: "I am here for me; you are all here for me; no one is here for you"

Obsidian wouldn't be doing a kickstarter if they just wanted to make the most money by making mainstream games. They'd just make AAA action RPGs that are shallow and pander to all groups while selling 3+ million copies. Of course they might end up like Bioware where DA2 and ME3 weren't well received and TOR is about to go free to play because they tried too hard to pander to their market and made terrible games instead.

 

I think my point went a bit over your head, i even added a quote by Carlin in the end to make sure that people got the joke

[Ashram]

I'd like to see some Latino and Asian representation then, and not stereotypical. When was the last time you saw a Pizzaro or Cortez in a game? Much larger demographic.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I think the LGBPT community should be included and get just as much recognition as the heterosexual community

 

Or how about the cRPG community where most people are more concerned about gameplay than crying out for the inclusion of blatant attempts at pandering to any consumer's sexual preferences, sex lives (or lack thereof), politics or religion? Yeah, how 'bout that.

[Grimlorn]

Studies have shown from various sources, which includes careful selective group testing, that consolidating creative resources in order to accommodate most demographics will increase profitability by as much as 5-10%. The finished product will reflect the needs and interest of the current market with optimal accurancy. The marketing has shown it. It is a great dollar, wonderful dollar, it is a huge market, i can assure you.

 

Or of course Obsidian can work according to how George Carlin said to a heckler: "I am here for me; you are all here for me; no one is here for you"

Obsidian wouldn't be doing a kickstarter if they just wanted to make the most money by making mainstream games. They'd just make AAA action RPGs that are shallow and pander to all groups while selling 3+ million copies. Of course they might end up like Bioware where DA2 and ME3 weren't well received and TOR is about to go free to play because they tried too hard to pander to their market and made terrible games instead.

 

I think my point went a bit over your head, i even added a quote by Carlin in the end to make sure that people got the joke

I got the point of your post and the joke at the end. If you were being sarcastic with the market info then yeah I didn't get that because it sounded like you were trying to make a legitimate point. If you were making a legitimate point then you didn't get the points in my post. Edited September 18, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Progressive_Stupidity]

So a minority feels catered and pandered to?

People tend to like seeing characters they can identify with in various ways.

 

If you consider that pandering, much of the game is.

True but you don't see those people getting together and petitioning for representation, and furthermore you don't always see those characters always represented in every game. It differs from game to game based around what the devs want, and not what they are pressured into doing by entitled people.

 

Most minorities are represented by default nowadays and do not NEED to get together and petition for representation. There is still major opposition to gay characters in games (or dialogue options that allow players to role-play as gay).

[SilverMoonDragon2]

Please, please, please include some gay and lesbian characters in Project Eternity! Obsidian did a phenomenal job of being inclusive with New Vegas (see this article http://www.gamefront...-in-gay-heaven/) so I'm really hoping they will follow suite with Project Eternity. Obsidian, can you do this again?

 

^ This! I think the LGBPT community should be included and get just as much recognition as the heterosexual community

No, they are a minority and should be treated like it, if you are in a business and majority of people like to buy blue colored toys, you won`t make millions of red colored toys to please a couple of guys.You want to sell thousand blue toys and make a profit, and please almost everyone

 

Hm...from personal experience, LGBPT people are not as much a "minority" as you seem to think. I'm not going to pretend I know everything though, that's just been my experience. It's not the same thing as comparing "red toys" and "blue toys", this is about people, and NOT excluding people (in this case video games) just because some people think they're a "minority" or some people think it's somehow "wrong"...just my opinion.

[Goran]

This kind of topic is the reason why I'm against all kind of romances in RPGs. Play Sims, or get a girl / guy. This is a gaming forum.

[Concerned Reader]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

 

Around 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. Often times because they feel rejected by their parents, by their school, by their friends, and by society. A lot of the time, a young gay kid may not even know that there are others out there like him. He may think he's all alone, that he's some horrible deviation from the cultural norm and that there is no place for him in the world. You know why that is? Because nobody talks about LGBT people. There is no exposure, there is no communication. 5-10% of the population is GLBT. Walking around a Texas Highschool, you'd think it was 0.5%. In a campus of 2300 people, that's 115-230 people who are surpressing an integral part of their self identity.

 

So yes, GLBT people are going to petition for inclusion in things. It is not asking for special treatment. It is asking to be acknowledged. To have someone, somewhere, say "yes, you do exist, and that's fine." And that can save lives.

[SilverMoonDragon2]

I think the LGBPT community should be included and get just as much recognition as the heterosexual community

 

Or how about the cRPG community where most people are more concerned about gameplay than crying out for the inclusion of blatant attempts at pandering to any consumer's sexual preferences, sex lives (or lack thereof), politics or religion? Yeah, how 'bout that.

 

I support "The more choices and diversity in RPGs, the better" attitude, whether it's more interesting gameplay, a more expansive story etc, or characters with different sexualities and different political views.

Edited September 18, 2012 by SilverMoonDragon2

[c0wb0ycliche]

If Obsidian doesn't include gays are they homophobes? If they don't include black people or latinos are they racist?

 

First, there is a difference. Homosexuality is something that has existed in every culture, at every moment, in every place of the world. Sometimes hidden and punished, sometimes openly but it's universal at least in the human species. I have a hard time imagining how something so incredibly important cannot be included if other mature theme (and especially if any sexual theme) is present inside the game, even more when the game itself want to ensure the immersion of the player in a credible world.

But the fact is it's a minority that probably only makes up about 2-5% of the population and that doesn't mean there needs to be special considerations for them in video games, or really anything really.

 

When I meet people I don't find out if they are gay or bi or whatever. They're just people. I don't care about their sexuality and different sexualities don't need be represented in every game. A credible world doesn't have people informing you of their sexuality. That's just pandering which is exactly what Bioware does to the gay crowd by including gay characters. I know gay people who are offended by the gay characters that they write because they are so unrealistic and misrepresent them. That's what people are asking for.

They could maybe not include it if they want to create a 100% heterosexual human species, but they will need to justify this choice (as well as any difference with the real world)

It's irrelevant. I'm probably not going to know what 99% of the characters' sexuality is in the game. So why is it important that they include gay characters? So a minority feels catered and pandered to?

 

Its not pandered to, its included. No RPG with any character development will have no mention of relationships between characters. That said, what I am asking for is that those "mentions" whether that includes romance options or simply character stories, include some same gender pairings. That's not special treatment.

 

I'm sure if the game only featured homosexual relationships you wouldn't play it, I mean Christ look at the uproar over Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3, and those only balanced straight and gay characters.

 

If one out of every 20 characters you encounter, or two out of a dozen companions are gay or lesbian, that shouldn't offend you. Unless you are a bigot.

[Tale]

]True but you don't see those people getting together and petitioning for representation,

Many of them don't have to, they are a de facto assumption. And others may not be notable parts of the community.

 

and furthermore you don't always see those characters always represented in every game.

Some groups you do. Or nearly so. But this isn't about every game. This is about Project Eternity.

 

It differs from game to game based around what the devs want, and not what they are pressured into doing by entitled people.

Sometimes it is based on what their audience wants. Obsidian has expressed something of a general interest in knowing what their audience wants for the game.

[evdk]

 

Hm...from personal experience, LGBPT people are not as much a "minority" as you seem to think. I'm not going to pretend I know everything though, that's just been my experience. It's not the same thing as comparing "red toys" and "blue toys", this is about people, and NOT excluding people (in this case video games) just because some people think they're a "minority" or some people think it's somehow "wrong"...just my opinion.

 

OK, I'll bite - what does the "P" stand for?

[Troller]

http://en.wikipedia....mong_LGBT_youth

 

Around 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. Often times because they feel rejected by their parents, by their school, by their friends, and by society. A lot of the time, a young gay kid may not even know that there are others out there like him. He may think he's all alone, that he's some horrible deviation from the cultural norm and that there is no place for him in the world. You know why that is? Because nobody talks about LGBT people. There is no exposure, there is no communication. 5-10% of the population is GLBT. Walking around a Texas Highschool, you'd think it was 0.5%. In a campus of 2300 people, that's 115-230 people who are surpressing an integral part of their self identity.

 

So yes, GLBT people are going to petition for inclusion in things. It is not asking for special treatment. It is asking to be acknowledged. To have someone, somewhere, say "yes, you do exist, and that's fine." And that can save lives.

What about anti-GLBT people, some do commit suicide too...we gotta acknowledge those too, if you wanna be equal gotta consider everyone

they want to be represented on video games too, imagine how many lives we can save this way...

Edited September 18, 2012 by Nigro

[c0wb0ycliche]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

 

Around 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. Often times because they feel rejected by their parents, by their school, by their friends, and by society. A lot of the time, a young gay kid may not even know that there are others out there like him. He may think he's all alone, that he's some horrible deviation from the cultural norm and that there is no place for him in the world. You know why that is? Because nobody talks about LGBT people. There is no exposure, there is no communication. 5-10% of the population is GLBT. Walking around a Texas Highschool, you'd think it was 0.5%. In a campus of 2300 people, that's 115-230 people who are surpressing an integral part of their self identity.

 

So yes, GLBT people are going to petition for inclusion in things. It is not asking for special treatment. It is asking to be acknowledged. To have someone, somewhere, say "yes, you do exist, and that's fine." And that can save lives.

 

This is hugely important. If our culture, which includes video games, made these kids feel they were ok the way they are, this number wouldn't be so high.

 

I just want to feel represented in the game I am playing. This post has a much nobler goal.

[Wintersong]

When Tolkien was writing the Lord of the Rings I'd repeat him constantly: "Hey, where is the token black man?" or "Why isn't there any recognized gay?" or "Why doesn't Aragorn organize a threesome with those two hot girls?".

 

So if Obsidian had decided that mains humans in PE are black (well, not that I like the word because only drow are black) because of story reasons, apparently they should be forced to include token latino human, token asian human, token white human,... They don't want to offend any possible "race" by not including them, riiiiight? So screw story in favor of political correctness!!

 

Should we talk about religion and how someone can feel offended by alien religious ideas proposed by the game? Sorry, for a moment I felt evil.

[Grimlorn]

So a minority feels catered and pandered to?

People tend to like seeing characters they can identify with in various ways.

 

If you consider that pandering, much of the game is.

True but you don't see those people getting together and petitioning for representation, and furthermore you don't always see those characters always represented in every game. It differs from game to game based around what the devs want, and not what they are pressured into doing by entitled people.

 

Most minorities are represented by default nowadays and do not NEED to get together and petition for representation. There is still major opposition to gay characters in games (or dialogue options that allow players to role-play as gay).

So what if there is major opposition to gay people? Go out and fight against the discrimination instead of acting like you're being discriminated in a game if you're not represented in it. I mean why are you wasting your time here asking for gay characters in a video game instead of fighting for gay marriage or to be treated equally. I mean do you see how absurd that is?

[Troller]

Hey me and my family we are catholics, we are against lots of themes portrayed in pretty much all video games, but guess what, the main purpose of a game isn`t supposed to be a political statement and please some baww opressed minorities, its supposed to be fun.

[Nonek]

I assume the P stands for Pan sexual, they mate with Satyr's. Ancient greek mythology humour, always goes down well.

[c0wb0ycliche]

This kind of topic is the reason why I'm against all kind of romances in RPGs. Play Sims, or get a girl / guy. This is a gaming forum.

And as a presumably straight gamer, you don't need to have these kind of topics to play an RPG with depictions of straight relationships.

 

The whole point is similar to the idea of racial representation. If I am a black father I want my kids to see black characters in movies, books, tv and games that they can relate to and look up to and feel validated by. This is the same things for gay people, regardless of bigotry.

 

[Concerned Reader]

So what if there is major opposition to gay people? Go out and fight against the discrimination instead of acting like you're being discriminated in a game if you're not represented in it. I mean why are you wasting your time here asking for gay characters in a video game instead of fighting for gay marriage or to be treated equally. I mean do you see how absurd that is?

Nice logical fallacy there. How do you know that they aren't? I know that I am. I go to a Lutheran University, and within a months time I'll be delivering a speech on GLBT awareness. Asking for realistic inclusion within the media is also asking for equality. It's the same fight in different theaters of war.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Concerned Reader

[Vin]

Personally I couldn't care less about the sexuality of a character, unless it impacts the story or is an integral part of the aforementioned character's personality. Which, sometimes it does impact the story and sometimes it is a major and important part of a character's personality (saving the world is more important, maybe just a little.) But it shouldn't be at the level where during a conversation with some barbarian guy or some spicy rogue-girl they suddenly start telling the protagonist about how they like the same gender -- which is usually around the same point where they fill the PC in on their personal history from the time they were born to the time they joined the PC's little adventuring group.

It should be tasteful. It should be subtle. Unless the NPC that is bisexual or homosexual is not a subtle character.

But there should never be a "token gay" or a "token black," or a "token male/female fanservice character" just for the sake of inclusiveness. Especially if being gay or being black or being totally hot is the only thing that character has going for them.

[evdk]

So a minority feels catered and pandered to?

People tend to like seeing characters they can identify with in various ways.

 

If you consider that pandering, much of the game is.

True but you don't see those people getting together and petitioning for representation, and furthermore you don't always see those characters always represented in every game. It differs from game to game based around what the devs want, and not what they are pressured into doing by entitled people.

 

Most minorities are represented by default nowadays and do not NEED to get together and petition for representation. There is still major opposition to gay characters in games (or dialogue options that allow players to role-play as gay).

So what if there is major opposition to gay people? Go out and fight against the discrimination instead of acting like you're being discriminated in a game if you're not represented in it. I mean why are you wasting your time here asking for gay characters in a video game instead of fighting for gay marriage or to be treated equally. I mean do you see how absurd that is?

Because they are looking for acceptance everywhere and every little bit counts. Seeing gay characters (that are not portrayed as deviants/caricatures) in games might certainly help in this.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I support "The more choices and diversity in RPGs, the better" attitude, whether it's more interesting gameplay, a more expansive story etc, or characters with different sexualities and different political views.

 

Pandering arbitrarily to peoples' real life issues does not make for more interesting gameplay. It makes for juvenile embarrassment. When I'm playing a videogame and it clumsily and/or blatantly attempts to tackle contemporary social issues I feel stupid (why am I playing this?), patronized (oh, really? things sometimes are different?) and ultimately embarrassed for not only the developers but people playing the game and taking that kind of thing seriously. As has been said, FO:NV did it right. It was subtle and did not present itself as anything extraordinary.

Edited September 18, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Karranthain]

I don't have strong views on this issue, but I'd just like to add that I don't think that every movie or a game should include them just because.

[Ashram]

"If one out of every 20 characters you encounter, or two out of a dozen companions are gay or lesbian, that shouldn't offend you. Unless you are a bigot."

 

By definition a bigot is: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

 

Careful with tossing the bigot word around. I think people use that word too often....just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean they are bigoted, especially if their posts are done in a respecful manner. Someone could argue being intolerant of another opinion that doesn't agree with the OP is bigoted...because they are obstinately devoted to his or her own opinion. Not arguing either way here, just saying words have meaning and people have different viewpoints and opinions. Thats what makes life great.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Ashram