Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?

[kabaliero]

Where there are guns, there are also cannons. Which certainly brings us to an absolutely new level of warfare. I mean forget about the catapults and ****.

Not sure i would like that.

 

But come to think of this: combat crossbow was, too, incredibly powerful (and it still is!). In games, those weapons were rarely presented as dangerous fullplate wreckers.

And real "breath of fresh air" would be, imho, a correctly implemented crossbow. Incredible damage and low firerate without any premise for the steampunk sway.

Let's face it - D&D crossbows are a joke, to say the least.

 

Ballista is a powerful siege\assault weapon, also. They were only showed appropriately in Witcher 2.. But bla-bla-bla, whatever.

 

I know Obs want guns and they alrdy have character art based on them; they'll make them happen anyway. So lol

Edited October 18, 2012 by kabaliero

[nikolokolus]

Ima break it down fer ya.

 

If you don't like guns in your RPGs then you must not have liked Arcanum?

 

If you didn't like Arcanum, you are a terrible, horrible, irredeemably broken person.

 

You don't want to be a terrible, horrible, broken person do you?

 

NO YOU DO NOT!

[Morality Games]

I loved the eldritch pistol borne by one of the adventurers (Shadrach) in China Mieville's novel 'Perdido Street Station'. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. In fact, it would be nice to see elements of the 'New Weird' fantasy sub-genre in Project Eternity.

 

Sometimes you just go along with the ride.

 

My response to anything Obsidian wants to put in the game is, "Win me over."

[kabaliero]

Ima break it down fer ya.

 

If you don't like guns in your RPGs then you must not have liked Arcanum?

 

If you didn't like Arcanum, you are a terrible, horrible, irredeemably broken person.

 

You don't want to be a terrible, horrible, broken person do you?

 

NO YOU DO NOT!

 

WELL, GIVE US TRAINS THEN!

[Hormalakh]

You guys should look at the game Darklands. It's historically based and it has single-shot guns in the game. It's actually a pretty interesting take on this fantasy theme. Josh always talks about it too, so I'm sure it's been an influence on him.

[Agelastos]

I don't understand why so many people are against firearms in fantasy games. I mean, the P.E. setting is supposed to be as technologically advanced as 16th century Europe. To me, it would be weird if there weren't any firearms available.

It's not like they're going to be overpowered. We're talking match- and wheellock guns. You get one shot, and then you have to reload - which can take as long as a minute in RL.

Real match- and wheellock guns were also quite prone to break or backfire, so they should have a pretty high Critical Failure rate.

[SophosTheWise]

nope, never i want medieval setting

 

Well, there were firearms in the 14th century, albeit quite rare, mostly "hand cannons"

 

 

And sometime in the 15th century there were muskets.

[Calmar]

I don't understand why people are so concerned about firearms. So far I've seen no evidence that PE will feel like the Thirty Years War. The interviews with the developers clearly suggest that it will be late Middle Ages with guns - no printing presses, no large amounts of early Modern technology, nothing really anachronistic. Weapons are apparently just a bit more advanced than what's been available at the time of the Hussite Wars (like SophosTheWise likewise pointed out).

 

 

The most recent technologies seeing use in the world are ocean-going carrack-style ships and black powder firearms (notably absent: the printing press). Cultures with large navies and mercantile traffic are exploring the world, which has led to contact with previously-unknown lands and societies and settlement in new lands. Despite their intense drive, these explorers have been restricted from aggressive long-range exploration by monstrous sea creatures that pose a lethal, seemingly insurmountable threat to even the stoutest, most well-armed ships.

 

Black powder firearms are of the single-shot wheellock variety. Largely considered complex curiosities, these weapons are not employed extensively by military forces. Their long reload times are considered a liability in battles against foes that are too monstrous to drop with a single volley, foes that fly or move at high speed, and foes that have the power of invisibility. Despite this, some individuals do employ firearms for one specific purpose: close range penetration of the arcane veil, a standard magical defense employed by wizards. The arcane veil is powerful, but it does not react well to the high-velocity projectiles generated by arquebuses and handguns. As a result, more wizards who previously relied on the veil and similar abjurations have turned to traditional armor for additional defense.

 

SOURCE

 

Edited November 15, 2012 by Calmar

[Diagoras]

Here's a question: if black powder firearms are recent then why are they using the relatively advanced wheellock weapons? Where my matchlock arquebus at?

 

As it stands now, I'm afraid that Obsidian will neglect the historical role of firearms in late Medieval battlefield in an attempt to placate people, resulting in the same annoyingly anachronistic battlefields you see in a lot of high fantasy (plate armour without guns, for example). Give me gunners holding the center in major battles, and wheellock wielding assassins gunning down monarchs. The 16th century, essentially.

[Agelastos]

Here's a question: if black powder firearms are recent then why are they using the relatively advanced wheellock weapons? Where my matchlock arquebus at?

 

As it stands now, I'm afraid that Obsidian will neglect the historical role of firearms in late Medieval battlefield in an attempt to placate people, resulting in the same annoyingly anachronistic battlefields you see in a lot of high fantasy (plate armour without guns, for example). Give me gunners holding the center in major battles, and wheellock wielding assassins gunning down monarchs. The 16th century, essentially.

 

The wheellock mechanism was developed around 1500, so it's not anachronistic in any way.

 

Due to the presence of magic, firearms will fill a different role than they did in RL 16th century Europe. For more information, just follow the link that Calmar provided.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Agelastos

[Diagoras]

The wheellock mechanism was developed around 1500, so it's not anachronistic in any way.

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you have wheellocks, you have matchlocks, but I'm not seeing them being mentioned which is strange considering how much cheaper and more common matchlocks were, due to their easy-to-produce nature.

 

Though if black powder firearms are really recent, then it still is weird. Matchlocks (ie. the first true black powder firearms) pop up around 1420, but we don't see wheellocks until around 1517. That's 100 years of firearm development.

 

Due to the presence of magic, firearms will fill a different role than they did in RL 16th century Europe. For more information, just follow the link that Calmar provided.

 

I commented that on another thread, but in short, unless there are a lot of monstrous, flying, and invisible people on the battlefield, it seems weird that matchlocks wouldn't be as widely used as they were on the battlefields of the 1500s. I can't think of a better Medieval weapon to take out a monstrous foe than a musket firing at full charge, and flying/invisible enemies aren't going to be reachable by any weapons, let alone firearms. Hell, at least with guns you can volley fire in their general direction and hope to get a kill.

 

What magical conditions are going to make matchlocks useless, but keep swords, pikes, and bows relevant? Though I guess I should rephrase that as: what magical conditions that aren't hopelessly contrived are going to do that?

Edited November 15, 2012 by Diagoras

[Agelastos]

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you have wheellocks, you have matchlocks, but I'm not seeing them being mentioned which is strange considering how much cheaper and more common matchlocks were, due to their easy-to-produce nature.

 

Though if black powder firearms are really recent, then it still is weird. Matchlocks (ie. the first true black powder firearms) pop up around 1420, but we don't see wheellocks until around 1517. That's 100 years of firearm development.

 

 

 

I commented that on another thread, but in short, unless there are a lot of monstrous, flying, and invisible people on the battlefield, it seems weird that matchlocks wouldn't be as widely used as they were on the battlefields of the 1500s. I can't think of a better Medieval weapon to take out a monstrous foe than a musket firing at full charge, and flying/invisible enemies aren't going to be reachable by any weapons, let alone firearms. Hell, at least with guns you can volley fire in their general direction and hope to get a kill.

 

What magical conditions are going to make matchlocks useless, but keep swords, pikes, and bows relevant? Though I guess I should rephrase that as: what magical conditions that aren't hopelessly contrived are going to do that?

 

Just because they haven't mentioned matchlocks doesn't mean there won't be any. Don't jump to conclusions. AFAIK, they haven't mentioned short swords or bihänders either, but I'm pretty sure we'll still see plenty of those in-game.

 

They've never said that guns are going to be useless, just that they won't be very effective against flying, invisible or extremely fast foes (which will probably be pretty common on the battlefields). Their primary function will be "close range penetration of the arcane veil, a standard magical defense employed by wizards".

Edited November 15, 2012 by Agelastos

[Tamerlane]

I think matchlock rifles might exist in the same mystical area as "person on horseback" and "guy who helps you put your armour on before the fight".

[Diagoras]

Just because they haven't mentioned matchlocks doesn't mean there won't be any. Don't jump to conclusions. AFAIK, they haven't mentioned short swords or bihänders either, but I'm pretty sure we'll still see plenty of those in-game.

 

I know. I'm just trying to reconcile "guns have just been invented" with "they're using guns from 100 years after the invention of firearms".

 

Obviously, technology could be faster there than in our time. I'm just curious.

 

They've never said that guns are going to be useless, just that they won't be very effective against flying, invisible or extremely fast foes (which will probably be pretty common on the battlefields)

 

They've explicitly stated that they're not employed extensively by military forces, though I guess that all depends on the definition of the word "extensively", doesn't it?

 

I'm curious as to why anything else would be effective against flying/invisible/super fast opponents if arquebus aren't? You'd think that the main limitation on the weapon would be similar to 16th century Europe's, mainly its inability to fill a bunch of important battlefield roles. That update seems to imply that their weakness is invisible enemies as opposed to rate of fire.

 

Their primary function will be "close range penetration of the arcane veil, a standard magical defense employed by wizards".

 

That makes sense, as armor penetration was always a big advantage of firearms. I wonder how gunners close to effective range against wizards, considering that wizards are usually depicted as long-range? Does this mean that we'll see development of sniper tactics earlier than usual, due to the added function of picking off magical targets as well as volley firing? Rifled weapons were constructed during the late Medieval ages, but never got far as they were too expensive for too little gain for widespread use. Be interesting if that all changed because accuracy became far more important for musket or arquebus wielding snipers.

 

I think matchlock rifles might exist in the same mystical area as "person on horseback" and "guy who helps you put your armour on before the fight".

 

Ha! Fair enough. Adventurers would certainly go for wheellocks, if they could afford the ridiculous rates.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Diagoras

[J.E. Sawyer]

Their weakness is their rate of fire, but that weakness is exacerbated in a setting where magic folks and crazy beasts sometimes wind up on battlefields. An opponent (or group of opponents) that is extremely swift, magically hidden, or incapable of being felled by a single volley from a/many firearms can take advantage of firearms' long reload times. On Earth, Renaissance-era arquebusiers had to deal with human beings and horses, creatures that could only move so fast, be so durable and quiet, and could only traverse by foot.

 

So firearms are used by military forces in PE, but they are not on a clear course to render bows and crossbows obsolete.

[teknoman2]

the thing i cant understand in this forum, is why topics pop up all the time, that ask wether we want something in the game or not, when that something is already in by dev choice since the begining

[Hormalakh]

I do think that sometimes, very rarely, a point might be made that the devs hadn't yet considered. That's the main value I see in these topics. I don't look at them as "polls trying to influence the devs" as much as "what does the community find to be important?"

[Diagoras]

Thanks Josh, that makes sense. I can't wait to see the eventual update on weapons in your combat system - though if you're putting half as much thought into it as you did for armor, I don't envy the task that lies ahead of you.

 

Can you drop a teaser as to how you think firearms might fit into the system? As secondary weapons to open an engagement, wielded by dedicated "gunner" builds for an entire battle, etc. Of course, there's a good chance that pre-production hasn't even skimmed that topic yet, but it costs me nothing to fish for updates.

 

the thing i cant understand in this forum, is why topics pop up all the time, that ask wether we want something in the game or not, when that something is already in by dev choice since the begining

 

My understanding is that this thread was started before the dev's decision was made.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Diagoras

[Stun]

the thing i cant understand in this forum, is why topics pop up all the time, that ask wether we want something in the game or not, when that something is already in by dev choice since the begining

My *guess* is because there's a distinct 'talking points' difference between offering suggestions, and giving feedback.

 

In the case of confirmed stuff like Firearms and Cooldown mechanics for spells, what you see on this forum is the latter (Feedback to something that's been confirmed). On many other topics, though, it's the former.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Stun

[jezz555]

Don't you think it's a little late to be asking this question? Seeing as we know they are already in...?

[necromate]

It doesn't matter, as long as it's well integrated within the setting. Enlightenment fantasy RPG?

 

Although I voted no, this actually sounds good. Well maybe the real question is wether to go industrial or magical when it comes to guns/cannons...

 

On the other hand, unless guns are like the first ever made or really weak contrsuctions, it would be really funny if bullets would not deal massive dmg to anyone without magical armour... bullets would penetrate cloths and leather like butter, maybe only plate could stand a chance against a revolver or a rifle with multiple shoots... Maybe if we could use one-shot-sure-to-hit-last-resort-pistol on the edge of death it would be cool. ( one-shot because it would take minutes to reaload 1 bullet)

 

So where I'm getting at is that early guns ware not accurate and could only fire 1 bullet before raloading, but if you made multi-shot accurate pistols/rifles it would be a violation of "fantasy realism" if they would not be VERY effective against anyone not in a full plate... ( btw could be fun to see a mage vs cowboy showdown xD, or political powers slipping from the mages fingers becouse of the sudden competition in long range deathdealing )

[Diagoras]

The devs have made it clear that the firearms in the game will be modeled on the guns that actually existed in that period, the same way that the bows are modeled on the ones that existed in that period, swords are, etc.

 

So where I'm getting at is that early guns ware not accurate

 

Depends on what you mean. The rounds were less affected by wind, and could track a moving target much easier than a bowman could. It also depends on what you compare it too: obviously longbows were famous for being both long ranged and accurate, but I wouldn't be surprised if a rifled musket wielded by a skilled gunman couldn't give them a run for their money when it came to lethal killing distance, specifically against armored targets.

[necromate]

The devs have made it clear that the firearms in the game will be modeled on the guns that actually existed in that period, the same way that the bows are modeled on the ones that existed in that period, swords are, etc.

 

So where I'm getting at is that early guns ware not accurate

 

Depends on what you mean. The rounds were less affected by wind, and could track a moving target much easier than a bowman could. It also depends on what you compare it too: obviously longbows were famous for being both long ranged and accurate, but I wouldn't be surprised if a rifled musket wielded by a skilled gunman couldn't give them a run for their money when it came to lethal killing distance, specifically against armored targets.

 

Muskets:

 

in real battle situations:

-hitting a target about 100meters away: 2% chance

-hitting a target 30 meters away: 20-30%

 

well that is also because soldiers rarely recieved real training with firearms... theoretical accuracy with muskets and early pistols is shockingly high, but the human body can't hold it steady... not to mention the recoil... gunpowder was also very dangerous and there was always a possibility that your gun would blow into your face

 

google is my friend :D http://sellsword.wor.../09/firearms/

Edited November 16, 2012 by necromate

[Stun]

Anyway, two months after this poll comes up (lol), and I've changed my opinion. I now think it's gonna be neat having a projectile attack option that isn't from a bow/crossbow/slings, or spells. I also wish for the ability to craft/improve firearms as well.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Stun

[Tamerlane]

Anyway, two months after this poll comes up (lol), and I've changed my opinion. I now think it's gonna be neat having a projectile attack option that isn't from a bow/crossbow/slings, or spells. I also wish for the ability to craft/improve firearms as well.

I want more javelins in games, dammit.