Mature themes you'd like to see in the game

[Longknife]

• Mercy as an option in key moments vs. an opponent and the consequences (both good and bad)
  

 

 

Just wanted to jump in....

 

Not disagreeing with you, but when we're talking about main themes of the game, like the "moral" of the game that defines much of the story, I think it's good they have a stance with it, no?

 

What I mean is, IF mercy were a main theme and a main topic of the game, I wouldn't want the game to simply say "sometimes mercy is good, sometimes mercy is bad!" No ****, game? Gee thanks. Instead, I'd rather see the game take a stance on the matter, perhaps dare to say that showing mercy is stupid, or that one should always show mercy no matter the cost. OR do a mix of them where 99% of the time, mercy gets you and your party in trouble, perhaps to the point where a party member is willing to ditch you for being repeatedly stupid about this, BUT you are also solely responsible for converting a man to "the good side" who later goes on to help many people.

 

When the game takes a stance on such issues, it's thought provoking whether we agree or disagree. If it said "mercy will get you killed" then that's a very pragmatic view with truths to it that'll ultimately spark debate and thought amongst those who disagree. If it does a mix like what I mentioned above, then it's also thought-provoking and raises the question of "was it worth it" instead.

 

I'd just rather not see them going out of their way to accomidate both sides of each issue equally. Treating both sides of an issue equally just feels incredibly disingenuous.

[Continuity]

I would like to see some dialectal materialism in the game. If it's a feudal society, then the relationships between the nobles, the prince, the bourgeoisie, the clerics and the peasantry would probably make for some good intrigue in a CRPG.

[BaronVonChateau]

There is a dangerous and sometimes empty trend which consists of systematically including matures theme in a RPG. As if blood, sex, moral grey areas, political intrigues and various depictions of social anguish were sufficient to bring a game into the realm of TRUE COMPELLING AND GRITTY STORIES. Nowadays, these are regularly vaunted in interviews, sold as features as if their inclusion alone was sufficient to tell a good story. Maturity is more a matter of writing quality than topic selection.

[Wombat]

I imagined him/her as a somewhat distant, yet important and powerful mentor type of character.

In that case, I shouldn't expect myself to be able to get into your imagination. Just forget about it.

 

There's also a failure to see that abortion as a political hot topic isn't because the debate itself is deep and intriguing, but because it's a cheap shot for a bad politician. It gives them a way to say "Now my foreign policy may suck in every way imaginable when compared to my opponent and he probably is 100% superior to me in that regard, and no I don't have any good justification for my moronic plan, BUT MY OPPONENT THINKS THIS ABOUT ABORTION!!!"

Well, these typical abortion argument seems to be quite modern chirstian argument to me, and, of couse, such thing can be utlized as political tact. However, I don't think these people has ever imagined how these things can appear to other cultures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

[Cryticus]

I just want a good story , not a mature story, not a deep story, not a story that causes you to think about life.When I will turn off computer after playing it for hour or two, I want to think wow this is awesome I want to know what heppens next, and this dousn't need to have gritty storys and making this a session of FATAL.

Really fantasy ghetto at its finest , I don't play fantasy game, I play deep political intrigue.

That being said I dont mind if this story will talk about something deep but it must be part of the story and not just thrown in to make game "mature" like Dragon age origins , where discrimination of elves is shown only in one place in game (two if you chouse city elf origin) and it feels somewhat like it was thrown there just to show that this dark fantasy and not some silly little kids tolkien

[Entropious]

Truth be told, I would not so much like to see more and more pseudo-mature themes introcued, as giving the game a deeper, intellectual polish. I truly hope that Chris Avellone will once again introduce heavy doses of philosophy, even more so that he did within Planescape: Torment. Of course, some may argue that such an approach wouldn't be realistic when dealing with a fantasy setting of "sword and sorcery", but please recall some basic facts.

If the universe is shaped more towards the Middle Ages, then both philosophy and theology where at the center of any public discourse, not necessarily just amongst the upper echelons of society. The same can be said of Antiquity, although they in turn focused more on philosophy and metaphysics. I remember a recount made by an old monk visiting Constantinople in the 11th Century. The poor fellow was complaining that he couldn't even visist the fish market without having to oberver debates on deep religious dogma. So, please keep in mind that, although the societies presented within fantasy settings may be simple in terms of technology, when it comes to their intellectual lives, especially interactions, they should be given much more thought than your usual "M'lord, I be a dumb peasant. Now kill them orcs!"

[war:head]

• Mercy as an option in key moments vs. an opponent and the consequences (both good and bad)
  

 

 

Just wanted to jump in....

 

Not disagreeing with you, but when we're talking about main themes of the game, like the "moral" of the game that defines much of the story, I think it's good they have a stance with it, no?

 

What I mean is, IF mercy were a main theme and a main topic of the game, I wouldn't want the game to simply say "sometimes mercy is good, sometimes mercy is bad!" No ****, game? Gee thanks. Instead, I'd rather see the game take a stance on the matter, perhaps dare to say that showing mercy is stupid, or that one should always show mercy no matter the cost. OR do a mix of them where 99% of the time, mercy gets you and your party in trouble, perhaps to the point where a party member is willing to ditch you for being repeatedly stupid about this, BUT you are also solely responsible for converting a man to "the good side" who later goes on to help many people.

 

When the game takes a stance on such issues, it's thought provoking whether we agree or disagree. If it said "mercy will get you killed" then that's a very pragmatic view with truths to it that'll ultimately spark debate and thought amongst those who disagree. If it does a mix like what I mentioned above, then it's also thought-provoking and raises the question of "was it worth it" instead.

I don't really see it that way, mainly because it's not how things work. There is no black and white.

Besides, taking a stance on mercy either way makes the whole thing redundant as a gameplay mechanic. If 'mercy gets you killed', you'll always go for the kill, because who'd deliberately choose the other way? Might as well leave the whole decision out of the game then.

Part of such a decision is to not know exactly what the long-term outcome will be. Let an opponent live and they might surprise you by returning the favor one day. Or they turn out to be the one killing one of your party members.

Of course for this to work, the NPCs have to be deep characters that allow players to have a basic idea of their character while still being able to surprise.

 

After all, we don't want this to be another bioware-style system where it is apparent what is going to happen from the getgo, right? I can only think of one decision in the entire ME and DA series where doing 'the good thing' turned out to be wrong. And that involved a minor NPC never to be seen again in ME2.

[Giantevilhead]

I would say that there are some broad themes that a lot of different ideas could fall under.

 

Idealism vs. Pragmatism - Are you willing to sacrifice your principles for a greater good?

 

Your army conquered an enemy stronghold. You don't have enough food and water for both your own troops and enemies you've captured. What do you do with the POW's? Do you dispatch a group of soldiers to transport them back to your territory, making you far more vulnerable to a counterattack? Do you let them go? Do you break their arms and then let them go? Do you let them starve? Do you put them to the sword?

 

Are atrocities justified if it means a quicker end to a war? The Mongols for example, used some horrific tactics against their enemies. They built a pyramid of a hundred thousand decapitated human heads in front of the city of Delhi, which convinced them to surrender without a fight. The Mongols created a reputation for being so ruthless and terrifying that many of their enemies simply surrendered without a fight, which no doubt prevented a lot of deaths and destruction. Sp should you use such a strategies in order to get your enemies to surrender without a fight as to prevent battles that could potentially kill many more people and destroy much more infrastructure/resources/properties on both sides?

 

I would say that a majority of the conflicts in the game will fall under this theme.

 

Justice/Redemption/Forgiveness vs. Punishment/Revenge - Bad people don't always stay bad. Sometimes good people are forced into situations where they have to do bad things. Sometimes people do bad things without realizing them. Not to mention victims of war.

 

How do you deal with the interaction between those who have been wronged and the people who wronged them? What happens when victims of a crime seek a punishment that may be beyond what should be appropriate? Is forgiveness something that has to be earned? What if a victim never forgives the perpetrator of a crime regardless of how they try to atone for their wrongs? Does redemption have some end goal that can be achieved or is a journey with no true end? What if the family member of someone who died during a war seeks retribution against the soldier(s) who killed that person? How do you deal with an entire family/clan/tribe/nation that feels wronged by another and seeks a war of vengeance?

 

Social/Cultural Norms/Standards and Shifts/Clashes between/in Culture(s) - Our standards and norms are not universal, they are defined by environment, circumstance, the people who hold power, and sometimes seemingly randomly/arbitrarily. What happens when cultures with different norms/standards clash and what happens when there are shifts within the standards and norms of a culture?

 

For example, fire is associated with hell and eternal damnation in certain cultures but it can also symbolize warmth, illumination, and knowledge. What happens when a culture that sees fire as a symbol of evil comes in contact with a culture that sees fire as a symbol of good? Can they learn to trust each other and come to coexist? What if there is significant religious symbolism involved? Is it even possible for a religion that fears and condemns something make peace with another religion that worships that thing? Things get even more interesting when magic, gods, spirits, etc. are involve.

 

Let's say that there is a warrior culture where standards of power, respect, and beauty are defined by physical prowess, strength of arms, and tactical/strategic expertise. However, the mages are beginning to develop more useful and powerful spells, causing a shift in the balance of power. How do the warriors respond to this change? Do they resist? Do they capitulate? Do they attempt to form alliances and peacefully integrate these changes? There would obviously be a lot of factional politics involved. There could also be gender politics involved. Perhaps women were treated less equally or fairly in the warrior dominated culture but since more women are mages, they are now able to achieve greater status and gain more power.

 

Moral Absolutism vs. Moral Relativism - Are some things just inherently evil/wrong and some things inherently good/right, or does everything depend on circumstances. There's the obvious questions of if murder is always wrong or if forgiveness/charity is always right, etc. However, there's also questions based on the fantastical elements of the game world, like are demons/devils (or whatever creature is analogous to demons/devils) inherently evil, are angels inherently good, are certain schools of magic inherently good or evil, is healing magic inherently good and is necromancy inherently bad.

 

What about a society that utilizes necromancy in a pragmatic way that benefits its people? Perhaps they turn skilled and educated people, who are willing, into undead after their death so that they can continue to serve their nation.

 

What about people who use healing magic to prolong torture and punishment? They could chop off a person's fingers and then magically regenerate them or have someone swallow a seed and then magically facilitate the growth of that seed into a tree.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

• Morality
  
• Economy issues
  
• (Feudal) class system differences, in wealth, social status and what have you.
  
• War, in a non-glorified manner
  
• Politics
  
• Life and death, and their relation to each other
  
• Religion (of the region)
  

[ET3D]

Frankly I want a fantasy RPG to evoke a feeling of wonder. I play a game to escape reality, not to get another dose of it. I want to play someone larger than life who solves larger than life problems, not someone who waddles in the dirt of endless conflicts and mundane chores. The OP had some good themes, because they can help create a good story, but when this degenerates to something like rape, no I don't want that in a game. Background, okay, put it in front and I'll just say thank you and goodbye.

 

One mature subject I find unhappily little broached by RPGs is the subject of childbearing. So seldom do we encounter directly the rearing of children as yet in their swaddling clothes. So seldom does a woman give birth.

 

It's perhaps simply a subject particularly alien to the thinking of the 15-19 male demographic which has predominated, in RPGing of days past. An unweened child evokes such radically different emotions in persons of different life experiences. But it is one of the focal realities of human life. We bear children. We rear our young. And we ought do so in our RPG stories.

 

Speaking as a father, why would I want that in a game? Child rearing is a difficult and thankless job, and the good thing about it is that it's your children and you love them. Why would I want to rear some NPC brat? Want to raise someone, play The Sims.

Edited September 18, 2012 by ET3D

[Balor]

"is healing magic inherently good and is necromancy inherently bad."

 

A healer that heals victims of torture so they will not die from the wounds... and be tortured indefinitely.

 

A necromancer lord that abolishes slavery, pays good wages to peasantry, and uses zombies for work that is too dirty/heavy/dangerous and as troops only to defend his borders - again, to prevent unnecessary deaths?

 

And by the way, abortion is by no means a modern "phenomenon". Medieval physicians used many methods of pregnancy termination, usually much riskier though. When it comes to dealing with prostitution, abortion is also a related subject... but it does not really have to be detailed.

It might be a mature and controversal theme, but I doubt that it merits mention... unless we are talking about, say, forcefully terminating a pregnancy for political or some other purpose.... but that is hardly controversial - this is violence, pure and simple.

 

Only problem with abortion is that by scientific studies, fetus that did not form a nervous system is not capable of suffering. Therefore, from a materialistic moral point of view (if done with mother's consent, of course) terminating such a pregnancy is no more "vile" then popping a zit. Of course, that deprives a world from a potential human being, but no more then using any sort of contraception does... see 'Every sperm is sacred" by Monthy Python for good reductio ad absurdum.

 

However, if every person has a soul of some kind (and setting dictates that they do) that is imparted on conception (now, that in interesting point - perhaps, since, unlike purely immaterial, or, should I say, nonexisting souls of our world, souls of the setting can be deteсted and moment of ensoulment established...) - that is a different subject... perhaps it could merit addition after all, with a few layers of complexity due to actual ensoulment added for good measure, that might actually be fun.

[Mabster]

I know Obsidian will put enough talent and love in their game that whatever themes they use the narrative will be thoughtful and complex (i.e. mature). Here's hoping we won't see too much gray, grit and depression that often seem to be linked to the more mature games. I think the game would feel sufficiently realistic and alive even with a good amount of humor and optimism (if only to dot all that negativity people "want to see discussed").

[Entropious]

I'm afraid that some individuals simply seek to recompense those elements of their lives within RPG's which, in cold reality, are lacking or simply non-existing.

[sirWorton]

Personal conflict and aguish of the main character made parallel with the conflict and anguish of the environment.

Pick up a central theme and then reflect it in as many ways possible. BG2 did this with heroism and divinity (and the cost thereof), Torment did this with (im)mortality and identity. What will be the cetral theme of Project Eternity?

[Entropious]

If I myself would be able to choose a mature arch, I would have to pick a copy of Neverwinter Nights - living within a plague-infested city, only this time properly reflecting the outright desperation, hopelesness and struggle for survival at any and all costs.

Children dying on the streets, merchants raising their prices sky-high, occult sects praying to plague-gods, madmen raving about the need to repent...and your character, slowly withering away from the disease. And, at the end, you only have enough of the cure for half of your party. Yummy.

[Stevenaap]

If I myself would be able to choose a mature arch, I would have to pick a copy of Neverwinter Nights - living within a plague-infested city, only this time properly reflecting the outright desperation, hopelesness and struggle for survival at any and all costs.

Children dying on the streets, merchants raising their prices sky-high, occult sects praying to plague-gods, madmen raving about the need to repent...and your character, slowly withering away from the disease. And, at the end, you only have enough of the cure for half of your party. Yummy.

 

No thanks, you just want gritty and dark. And that's cool BTW but don't confuse it with maturity because a game needn't be gritty and dark in order to be mature or vice versa.

[Entropious]

Well, when you hear the word "horror" in the description of the game itself, "dark and gritty" just pop in by themselves, don't they?

 

And plagues are unique setting in that there is no "big bad" that you can defeat, no "happy ending" you can achieve. Moreover, they tend to bring out both the best and worst within people.

 

Also, such an environment could solve the problem of "gold and wealth", present within another topic of this forum, as well as such issues like the availability of goods, the rarity of magical items, and so on.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Entropious

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

Personal conflict and aguish of the main character made parallel with the conflict and anguish of the environment.

Pick up a central theme and then reflect it in as many ways possible. BG2 did this with heroism and divinity (and the cost thereof), Torment did this with (im)mortality and identity. What will be the cetral theme of Project Eternity?

 

This is an excellent question, and I'm suprised this is the first time I have seen it.

 

The only two things I can use to guess the game's main theme is the name and the discussion of souls; shattered souls, unbroken souls etc. So perhaps it has to do with reincarnation and a battle that continues across time and through countless generations (see my avatar )? There's definitely potential there. I think the mature theme would be 'Do I continue the struggle like I have in my previous lives? Do I try to find a way to end the cycle? Or, if I think the cycle will continue no matter what I do, go the hedonist route and get as much out of this life as possible'? (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption)

Edited September 18, 2012 by Kilroy_Was_Here

[alanschu]

What exactly makes something mature?

[metiman]

The fact that it is made by and for adults. Full stop.

[alanschu]

What does THAT mean though?

 

I think it's safe to say it's made by adults. What does it mean to be made FOR adults?

[Goran]

Mature themes I'd like to see? Everything related to psychology and metaphysics.

[Cantousent]

I'm sure you don't want 'Everything' related to psychology and metaphysics. I mean, they can't throw in everything considered to be 'mature' content. I don't mind folks using the term 'mature' per se, but you have folks wanting all sorts of crazy things to play a major part in the game. The devs have to use some discretion in including mature themes if they want to treat any of those themes with maturity.

[metiman]

What does THAT mean though?

 

I think it's safe to say it's made by adults. What does it mean to be made FOR adults?

 

Well another way of putting it is that the devs should be making the kind of game that they would like to play. Since they are adults themselves it will be a mature game by definition. It just means that your target audience is mostly people over 18. Although people are trying to imbue those phrases with whatever meaning they want, that is all it really means.

[Nonek]

Racism, sexism, facism, all the "ism's." I'd like to see them all represented, and even if they're castigated in our world, presented in a good light by the adherents who cling to them as enlightened principles in Eternity.