Weapon mechanics

[Karranthain]

On the topic of Shields :

 

IE games didn't have elaborate shield mechanics : they simply improved the Armour Class of the wearer. And that's usually the case in most games. A few ideas on how shields could be treated mechanically in PE (as usual, most of this will be pretty obvious) :

 

1) Shields as weapons

 

Shield users should be able to use them offensively (e.g. bashing, pushing back)

 

2) Penalties

 

Carrying a shield can be tiring and it also limits the wearer's maneuverability. Having penalties for using a shield would also encourage using only a 1-handed weapon, with the second hand free. It could end up being a genuine playstyle option.

 

There could be some exception to that rule, like bucklers - the mali would be reduced, but so would be the boni (so it would probably end up as a sort of compromise).

 

3) Blocking

 

And perhaps the most important part. I've mentioned that shields usually just raise the armour value, which is an abstract representation of blocking, but ultimately if feels very unsatisfying. Other solutions :

 

a) There's a block rating (e.g. 25% chance to block any incoming attacks or any variations of that system)

 

Personally, I reckon it's a bit "gamey". It also doesn't, obviously, involve any input from the player.

 

b) Blocking stance. The player can assume a defensive stance and block incoming attacks (either on a timer, or just a certain amount of attack made against the player get blocked).

 

This options offers some tactical possibilities, so it has that as a big advantage.

 

Additionaly, shields could also be used to block incoming spells.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

On the topic of Shields :

 

 

How about having an option to sacrifice your shield in order to completely negate damage from a melee attack, as a last line of defense? Would give meaning to attacks of shield-shattering force from a gameplay perspective, while not making it into an attack ability which completely ****s up fighters of this build.

Edited September 22, 2012 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Karranthain]

How about having an option to sacrifice your shield in order to completely negate damage from a melee attack, as a last line of defense? Would give meaning to attacks of shield-shattering force from a gameplay perspective, while not making it into an attack ability which completely ****s up fighters of this build.

 

That reminds me, some weapon or attacks could be used to disable or downright destroy the shields, like you suggested.

[Stephen Amber]

I wouldn't place too much emphesis on slashing/bludgening/piercing damage types as it can be taken too far... I remember a NWN item called the greater swordsman's belt that had huge slashing resist and essentially made you immune to most attacks in the game, what with swords, daggers and other such slashing weapons being the most common.

 

However, an axe having a bleed effect is good. Or knocking someone over with a huge maul... like Sulik in Fallout2.

[The Sharmat]

That reminds me, some weapon or attacks could be used to disable or downright destroy the shields, like you suggested.

Thus my earlier suggestion of hooking with things like bearded axes.

 

If there's some kind of way to do directional damage for this, it'd be nice if the shield blockrate/armor bonus or whatever they use doesn't apply to the back or whatever side is uncovered.

[Karranthain]

Thus my earlier suggestion of hooking with things like bearded axes.

 

If there's some kind of way to do directional damage for this, it'd be nice if the shield blockrate/armor bonus or whatever they use doesn't apply to the back or whatever side is uncovered.

 

Yeah, ideally the blocking stance would only work in a frontal cone - allowing flanking maneuvers to be made against the shield wearers.

[Uwon de Toster]

I just hope there will be some complex critical hit system and enemies won't die from loss of hit points over vast periods of time ;]

[Karranthain]

I just hope there will be some complex critical hit system and enemies won't die from loss of hit points over vast periods of time ;]

 

First post (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60205-weapon-mechanics/#entry1190501) has some ideas on a critical hit system.

[Karranthain]

Expanding on the ideas in the first post (http://forums.obsidi...s/#entry1190501) :

 

Personally, I'd rather have access to a smaller amount of weapon types, as long as each and every type offers a completely unique playstyle. A few notes :

 

1) Attack modes

 

It has been mentioned more than a few times by several people - a halberd, for an instance should be a multi-purpose weapon, e.g. :

 

1) Used as a spear, dealing piercing damage.

2) Used as a axe, with crushing and slashing damage.

3) Used as a hook.

 

Ideally, the player would be able to switch between those modes at will.

 

2) Unique animations

 

A rapier is, obviously, handled very differently than a simple broadsword. The animations should emphasize quick precise thrusts etc.

 

3) Different uses

 

And perhaps the most important part. Each type should vastly differ from the other; some would excel against plate users, others would be multifunctional, but fairly weak etc.

 

4) Closing thoughts

 

These solutions would most definitely reduce the number of available weapon types, but in return we'd be offered a truly unique arsenal. Each piece of weaponry would serve a different purpose and feel different. In most cRPGs, the player picks their weapon based solely on its look, because they don't differ mechanically (at least not in a sufficient manner).

[nikolokolus]

In addition to all of the great ideas being presented herein, I'd also love to see unarmed combat and non-lethal weapons introduced. grappling, bolas, nets, saps, sword-breakers, etc. Being able to entangle, disarm, disable, tackle, block, stun, knockdown, blind and slow your enemy with melee characters as opposed to just AoE spells would be a great way to make combat feel more lively ... and talk about real tactical options, particularly if the enemy AI in the game takes advantage of all of these dirty tricks.

Edited September 29, 2012 by nikolokolus

[zlarm]

I like a lot of ideas in here but I think some of them might be a bit difficult to implement. For example I am uncertain how your spear example would work. You say spears should work better at a slight range and worse at close quarters but how would you ever implement this in an IE game. If you send any spear bearer against an enemy melee fighter they will be fighting in close quarters (meaning the spear guy suffers penalties)....but again this is completely unrealistic because part of the draw of the spear is that it helps keep the enemy farther away from you i.e. it's hard for them to get to close quarters. The only way I see this system working is to say give spear bearers a boost to armour class because enemies won't generally be getting as close and therefore not doing as much damage.

 

As for things like parry riposte I could see it working in a turn based game...or maybe as a skill that triggers automatically but as a manual input, you'd have to spend all your time micro managing your fighter and then your mage would be left standing around.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dunno if it's been said yet but I hope they move away from basically requiring your character to specialise in one weapon. I'd like the characters to be able to switch between weapons without feeling like they have just gimped themselves immensely, letting you experiment with other weapon types when you pick them up.

[Gfted1]

That, I think, would be in line with what Josh has said about firearms (i.e. "Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes").

 

In case you didnt see the full statement:

 

"Black powder firearms are of the single-shot wheellock variety. Largely considered complex curiosities, these weapons are not employed extensively by military forces. Their long reload times are considered a liability in battles against foes that are too monstrous to drop with a single volley, foes that fly or move at high speed, and foes that have the power of invisibility. Despite this, some individuals do employ firearms for one specific purpose: close range penetration of the arcane veil, a standard magical defense employed by wizards. The arcane veil is powerful, but it does not react well to the high-velocity projectiles generated by arquebuses and handguns. As a result, more wizards who previously relied on the veil and similar abjurations have turned to traditional armor for additional defense. "

 

http://www.kickstart...ty/posts/312639

[The Sharmat]

Can we then assume that Cadegund is some kind of mage killer?

[nikolokolus]

Can we then assume that Cadegund is some kind of mage killer?

 

I sure hope so.

[Karranthain]

In addition to all of the great ideas being presented herein, I'd also love to see unarmed combat and non-lethal weapons introduced. grappling, bolas, nets, saps, sword-breakers, etc. Being able to entangle, disarm, disable, tackle, block, stun, knockdown, blind and slow your enemy with melee characters as opposed to just AoE spells would be a great way to make combat feel more lively ... and talk about real tactical options, particularly if the enemy AI in the game takes advantage of all of these dirty tricks.

 

Great suggestion! It's usually the casters that have most options in combat (and, as a consequence, fun); your suggestion would most definitely make non-casters more interesting to play as.

 

As an added benefit, this would also make crafting more valuable.

 

I'll write a more detailed post about these soon.

[TrashMan]

I like a lot of ideas in here but I think some of them might be a bit difficult to implement. For example I am uncertain how your spear example would work. You say spears should work better at a slight range and worse at close quarters but how would you ever implement this in an IE game. If you send any spear bearer against an enemy melee fighter they will be fighting in close quarters (meaning the spear guy suffers penalties)....but again this is completely unrealistic because part of the draw of the spear is that it helps keep the enemy farther away from you i.e. it's hard for them to get to close quarters. The only way I see this system working is to say give spear bearers a boost to armour class because enemies won't generally be getting as close and therefore not doing as much damage.

 

 

ToEE has threat range. Longer-ranged weapons had a bigger threat range. Meaning anyone entering your threat range wasw subject to an Atttack of Opportunity.

Which means the spear guy would strike first, with the other guy being often penalized. And if he hits, he would stop the other guy dead in his tracks.

 

This was seriously powerfull when combined with Enlarge Person and Great Cleave and Combat Expertise. Your experet fighter with an enchanted longspear in the middle of the room was a murder-machine.

[TrashMan]

a) Different damage ranges (e.g. Greatsword 1d10x2, Longsword 1d6x3 - this would result in a vastly different performance.

b) Armour Boni and penalties - (e.g. Swords are worse at piercing chainmail, but great against leather, Rapiers are useless against plate).

c) Various speeds - self-explanatory.

d) Weapon perks - (e.g. Greatswords are harder to parry, Pikes can impale, Pistols can jam).

e) No weapon type should ever be considered "the best". They should all have their uses.

 

 

Id probably add the option for some wepaons to deal more than 1 type of damaghe (depending on weapon). Just like you can select to deal non-lethal damage, you can choose to deal a differetn type of damage. This wouldn't be as effective as it's "main" damage tough.

 

For example, with a greatsword/longsword you could slash, thrust or try to bludgeon someone.

 

Normally the damage it does would be (mostly) slashing... if combat animations are randomized then I guess by default all damage types would be enabled.

You could then "force" the character to focus on one type of damage. Since this limits the option and reduces the number of possible action, it is less effective than how you normally fight with a weapon.

[zlarm]

 

ToEE has threat range. Longer-ranged weapons had a bigger threat range. Meaning anyone entering your threat range wasw subject to an Atttack of Opportunity.

Which means the spear guy would strike first, with the other guy being often penalized. And if he hits, he would stop the other guy dead in his tracks.

 

This was seriously powerfull when combined with Enlarge Person and Great Cleave and Combat Expertise. Your experet fighter with an enchanted longspear in the middle of the room was a murder-machine.

 

Very interesting. I never played ToEE... wasn't it turn based though. I can easily see how you could implemetn spears like that in a TB game but a real time with pause I thinkg would be much more difficult

[Karranthain]

ToEE has threat range. Longer-ranged weapons had a bigger threat range. Meaning anyone entering your threat range wasw subject to an Atttack of Opportunity.

Which means the spear guy would strike first, with the other guy being often penalized. And if he hits, he would stop the other guy dead in his tracks.

 

This was seriously powerfull when combined with Enlarge Person and Great Cleave and Combat Expertise. Your experet fighter with an enchanted longspear in the middle of the room was a murder-machine.

 

Very interesting. I never played ToEE... wasn't it turn based though. I can easily see how you could implemetn spears like that in a TB game but a real time with pause I thinkg would be much more difficult

 

And here's another idea :

 

Spear users would receive defensive boni (e.g. decreasing opponents to hit chance) - but only until first hit connects; afterwards, the defensive bonus would be removed and opponents would receive an offensive bonus.

 

This would simulate warding off attackers with the spear. After they get close, it becomes a liability. This would make attacking them a risky move, but one that could pay off handsomely.

[TrashMan]

ToEE has threat range. Longer-ranged weapons had a bigger threat range. Meaning anyone entering your threat range wasw subject to an Atttack of Opportunity.

Which means the spear guy would strike first, with the other guy being often penalized. And if he hits, he would stop the other guy dead in his tracks.

 

This was seriously powerfull when combined with Enlarge Person and Great Cleave and Combat Expertise. Your experet fighter with an enchanted longspear in the middle of the room was a murder-machine.

 

Very interesting. I never played ToEE... wasn't it turn based though. I can easily see how you could implemetn spears like that in a TB game but a real time with pause I thinkg would be much more difficult

 

ToEE gave a lot of options even to 1-st level fighters.

Take a look:

http://2.bp.blogspot...6277-toee_2.jpg

 

http://www.mobygames...ure-windows.jpg

 

Yes, toEE was turn-based, but it can be done in "real-time". After all, BG was "real-time" (in relaity round-based but everyone as going on at the same time)

 

 

But honestly I don't like the paper-rock-scissors approach to "balancing".

It feels fake an unorganic.

I would avoid giving weapons bonuses and penalites against other weapons. Rather gives weapons different stats (and have enough meningfull stats in the first place), and they should natrualy fall into their own roles.

Edited September 30, 2012 by TrashMan

[Jarmo]

I'd be all for different kinds of damages and different speeds.

 

But I do dislike things like "rapiers cause bleeding damage on critical strikes",

because that just draws attention to how every edged weapon should cause bleeding on all damaging hits.

 

It could be useful to be able to toggle "bludgeoning damage on/off" with weapons like longswords,

if there'd be a reason to subdue someone without killing.

 

Maybe even between slashing/piercing damage, to better cope with armored targets,

but I wouldn't like to micromanage things too far. (and slashing/piercing just might be too far already)

Edited September 30, 2012 by Jarmo

[Karranthain]

But I do dislike things like "rapiers cause bleeding damage on critical strikes",

because that just draws attention to how every edged weapon should cause bleeding on all damaging hits.

 

 

That was just an example, an abstraction, Jarmo.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Karranthain

[pid]

Maybe it was already said, but I searched and can't get any closer than this. Please be patient if I'm repeating something already "obvious".

 

GRAPPLING

 

In the update they say it's difficult to grapple a centaur. Fine. Give monsters a physical attribute that says "Morphology: Humanoid". Only humanoids may be grappled. Non-humanoids (like "Morphology: Quadruped") cannot be grappled. That even adds to tactical depth, because if you can grapple onto everything, it's less complex, so that reason to NOT implement grappling sounds like a reason to actually DO IT!

 

PRONE ATTACKS

 

Animation cannot be done for both, standing and proning attacks. Good. Then don't. Just do all standing attacks and then *ONLY* one prone attack animation for "elongated weapons". Then test all those weapons and when the animation is acceptable (which means, the weapon is actually "elongated" like all pole arms) the stick a label to it that says "May be used to stab while prone". This, again, adds depth to tactical/strategic decisions.

 

GENERALLY

 

Having differentiation on weapons (see above), stance (aggressive/defensive), relative position to foe (like, "backstabbing only from behind", "blank-point shot only at range below 3 meters", "bonus for shooting arrows from above and malus from below", etc.), *ALL* add to the tactical depth of combat, and is welcome! Obviously, some are more fun and used than others, but if you do only the basic stuff there's no way to "improve" for the player. So I think there should be some exotics in here, so that the player may continue to learn to fight better even after the initial learning curve. That also adds to longevity.

[pid]

It could be useful to be able to toggle "bludgeoning damage on/off" with weapons like longswords,

if there'd be a reason to subdue someone without killing.

 

LOL! Captain Kirk: set phasers to stun.