Armour and weapon designs - a plea.

[Baudolino05]

While I'm certain there are some people are against armor "cut outs" because of prudishness, I'd say most people arguing for realistic armor are actually working from the idea that armor that doesn't cover more than a 1/5 of your body isn't armor, its decoration.

 

I'm not against sexy clothes or even decorative garments made of chain or plate. But realistically unless they're forming a magic barrier around your character, they really shouldn't have any effect on your ability to deflect or withstand a blow.

This is wrong. In real world Armor evolutionize from fullplate to lighter Landsknecht armor, from Landsknecht armor to Cuirass covering only Torso. Armor covering whole body is stupid idea.

 

So, it was because covering the whole body it's a stupid idea, not because the diffusion of gunpowder weapons made plate armors essentially useless and, as a direct consequence, high mobility became once again preferable to high protection in military tactics. Good to know ...

Edited October 2, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Lord Balgeron]

I would rather have half-naked characters like from Planescape Torment and Barbar Connan then the 'realistic' looking armors. We had enough those already in past RPGs. And if the enviroment permits it and we aren't stuck in cold climate like in Skyrim it would be quite fitting as well.

 

Also, those that cry about realistic or practical armor just don't know what they talking about. Fully covered plate armor was ever used only by heavy cavalery, and even then guy had to be put on horse with lift. You don't ever walk around in heavy armor, go to market , date , meeting with leaders of country or just visit a friend in that kind of equipment.

 

Not to mention that from realism point, you all reffer to, that armor has absolutely no meaning, and serves as nothing but aesthetics to which it should bow in the first place. Take for instance typical leather armor, that wears Prince of Persia in Warrior Within - that won't protect you from anything, maybe a little scratch on chest, but any dircect hit and you dead. The same with any kind of armor except maybe those heaviest that you wear while ridding a horse because they are too heavy to walk in. Even more so - in age where guns are, it would be more apporopriate to dress like people from 17-18 century (see Pirates of Caribean) - favoring a light clothing mostly, and only soldiers carring chest pieces and helmets. And i am not even mention fact that there will probably be a magic, and until the armors will be made from some kind of anti-magic material they will be all but useless - example a Inquisition style faction that hunts witches and sorcerers would found no use in armor as it would not protect them against their main opponents.

 

Of course this is fantasy, and not a realism and thus it should follow its own path, and in my opinion the aesthetics should always be top and should fit in what setting and atmosphere Obsidian aims for.

 

I personally would want all the armors, dresses and clothing to mirror those of Sigil from Planescape Torment, which had both scanty cloths as well as strong and meanacing armors.

[TrashMan]

* SNIP *

 

 

Bronies.....

 

 

Run, run for your lives everyone if you wish to keep your sanity!

[TrashMan]

I take pity in the fact you clearly didn't play Torment and if you did I pity you even more for not being able to appreciate it's concepts, themes and humour.

 

Save your pity .. I don't need it, but you do.

 

I don't have to adore a character concept just because you do.

[Umberlin]

and even then guy had to be put on horse with lift.

 

That's something of a victorian myth. Not that I agree or disagree with the sentiments you're expressing outside of that. I'm staying out of this one.

[Amentep]

I would rather have half-naked characters like from Planescape Torment and Barbar Connan then the 'realistic' looking armors. We had enough those already in past RPGs. And if the enviroment permits it and we aren't stuck in cold climate like in Skyrim it would be quite fitting as well.

 

Also, those that cry about realistic or practical armor just don't know what they talking about. Fully covered plate armor was ever used only by heavy cavalery, and even then guy had to be put on horse with lift. You don't ever walk around in heavy armor, go to market , date , meeting with leaders of country or just visit a friend in that kind of equipment.

 

Not to mention that from realism point, you all reffer to, that armor has absolutely no meaning, and serves as nothing but aesthetics to which it should bow in the first place. Take for instance typical leather armor, that wears Prince of Persia in Warrior Within - that won't protect you from anything, maybe a little scratch on chest, but any dircect hit and you dead. The same with any kind of armor except maybe those heaviest that you wear while ridding a horse because they are too heavy to walk in. Even more so - in age where guns are, it would be more apporopriate to dress like people from 17-18 century (see Pirates of Caribean) - favoring a light clothing mostly, and only soldiers carring chest pieces and helmets. And i am not even mention fact that there will probably be a magic, and until the armors will be made from some kind of anti-magic material they will be all but useless - example a Inquisition style faction that hunts witches and sorcerers would found no use in armor as it would not protect them against their main opponents.

 

Of course this is fantasy, and not a realism and thus it should follow its own path, and in my opinion the aesthetics should always be top and should fit in what setting and atmosphere Obsidian aims for.

 

I personally would want all the armors, dresses and clothing to mirror those of Sigil from Planescape Torment, which had both scanty cloths as well as strong and meanacing armors.

 

I actually don't disagree with the gist of your points, really.

 

My only point is that if "...soldiers carr[y]ing chest pieces and helmets" have chest pieces that consist of a jewel in the belly button, lets not say its armor - unless it is magical armor. Because as mundane armor the odds are pretty high that any blows that hit are going to strike an area left unprotected.*

 

Now I'm for player options and for NPCs to wear what they want and frankly if mage or even rogue types want to wear something practical or sexy it makes sense. But if a character loots some breast plate that covers chest and stomach and puts it on their female character and it suddenly becomes a metal bra...well I can see where there's a logical disconect between form and function.

 

*and frankly if it did hit right there, I think you'd still be experiencing some issues regardless of what protection it afforded.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Amentep

[Shadenuat]

Also, those that cry about realistic or practical armor just don't know what they talking about. Fully covered plate armor was ever used only by heavy cavalery, and even then guy had to be put on horse with lift.

 

Where the **** you people get your info on armor? Dorling Kindersley books?

[Karranthain]

I'll just repeat what I've written many times in this topic :

 

The goal here is not realistic, it never was. What many people, who have supported this topic, have actually voiced was their preference for believable and practical.

 

They (and me) simply find it more appealing. Not everyone has to, naturally.

 

I can't agree with the notion that most cRPGs feature realistic designs, however. If anything, that's an extremely rare case - I can only think of Witcher games (out of recent titles).

[Wintersong]

What is infantile and ridiculous is the assertion that people wanting to preserve the art team's capacity to do their jobs without having to worry about what a bunch of "functionality prudes" think, is somehow infantile and ridiculous. lol

Yeah, Obsidian listen to this dude! Chainmail bikini and boobplates for women!! Men can stick to full realistic plate armors, of course. Which is what is usually done in these cases.

 

This is wrong. In real world Armor evolutionize from fullplate to lighter Landsknecht armor, from Landsknecht armor to Cuirass covering only Torso. Armor covering whole body is stupid idea.

I also make sense if I take things out of context.

 

@Lord Balgeron: I'll stick to Amentep's answer. Also, chainmail manbikinis or bust!!!

 

 

@Obsidian: I demand swords that look good. Make them huge and without edges (edges don't look cool enough!!!). Also, add some spikes along the whole blade for epicness!!! But keep it working like a normal sword, eh? I just want it to look good on my character and, as you know, this is a fantasy world where people uses magic against monsters.

 

[obyknven]

While I'm certain there are some people are against armor "cut outs" because of prudishness, I'd say most people arguing for realistic armor are actually working from the idea that armor that doesn't cover more than a 1/5 of your body isn't armor, its decoration.

 

I'm not against sexy clothes or even decorative garments made of chain or plate. But realistically unless they're forming a magic barrier around your character, they really shouldn't have any effect on your ability to deflect or withstand a blow.

This is wrong. In real world Armor evolutionize from fullplate to lighter Landsknecht armor, from Landsknecht armor to Cuirass covering only Torso. Armor covering whole body is stupid idea.

 

So, it was because covering the whole body it's a stupid idea, not because the diffusion of gunpowder weapons made plate armors essentially useless and, as a direct consequence, high mobility became once again preferable to high protection in military tactics. Good to know ...

 

Oh, another "expert".

 

1. Gunfire not effective before late 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia....Charge_(warfare)

 

2 Fulplate have numerios problems:

- Bad Ventilation

- Too heavy

- Too thin

- Overheating

- Low mobility

- Difficult dressing

- etc. (Read "Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Das Waffenwesen in seiner historischen Entwickelung vom Beginn des Mittelalters bis zum Ende des 18. Jahrhunderts " by Wendelin Boeheim.)

 

 

Fullplate armor used only in isolationists medieval Europe and European always fail when trying use this against East Nations.

[Baudolino05]

I would rather have half-naked characters like from Planescape Torment and Barbar Connan then the 'realistic' looking armors. We had enough those already in past RPGs. And if the enviroment permits it and we aren't stuck in cold climate like in Skyrim it would be quite fitting as well.

 

Also, those that cry about realistic or practical armor just don't know what they talking about. Fully covered plate armor was ever used only by heavy cavalery, and even then guy had to be put on horse with lift. You don't ever walk around in heavy armor, go to market , date , meeting with leaders of country or just visit a friend in that kind of equipment.

 

Not to mention that from realism point, you all reffer to, that armor has absolutely no meaning, and serves as nothing but aesthetics to which it should bow in the first place. Take for instance typical leather armor, that wears Prince of Persia in Warrior Within - that won't protect you from anything, maybe a little scratch on chest, but any dircect hit and you dead. The same with any kind of armor except maybe those heaviest that you wear while ridding a horse because they are too heavy to walk in. Even more so - in age where guns are, it would be more apporopriate to dress like people from 17-18 century (see Pirates of Caribean) - favoring a light clothing mostly, and only soldiers carring chest pieces and helmets. And i am not even mention fact that there will probably be a magic, and until the armors will be made from some kind of anti-magic material they will be all but useless - example a Inquisition style faction that hunts witches and sorcerers would found no use in armor as it would not protect them against their main opponents.

 

Of course this is fantasy, and not a realism and thus it should follow its own path, and in my opinion the aesthetics should always be top and should fit in what setting and atmosphere Obsidian aims for.

 

I personally would want all the armors, dresses and clothing to mirror those of Sigil from Planescape Torment, which had both scanty cloths as well as strong and meanacing armors.

 

Thanks God you know what your're talking about, man .

1- In late middle age there were specif formations of foot soldiers that fought in full plate, especially in Northern Europe armies.

2- The flos duellaturam, arguably the most famous middle age fencing manual, has an entire section dedicated to the fencing in full plate. So, essentially not only people fought in plate, but they did it with a specific (and absolutely efficient, believe me) style.

3- A complete plate armor is definitely more comfortable than a full chain mail suit, and just slightly heavier. You can run in full plate, obviously not at full speed, and you can even jump.

4- Among the first pieces of plate used in middle age there were leg protections...

 

And before you ask, I fought both in chainmail and plate armor, with swords, polearms an maces, in company of people that study historical fencing and perform historical reenactments

Edited October 2, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Baudolino05]

While I'm certain there are some people are against armor "cut outs" because of prudishness, I'd say most people arguing for realistic armor are actually working from the idea that armor that doesn't cover more than a 1/5 of your body isn't armor, its decoration.

 

I'm not against sexy clothes or even decorative garments made of chain or plate. But realistically unless they're forming a magic barrier around your character, they really shouldn't have any effect on your ability to deflect or withstand a blow.

This is wrong. In real world Armor evolutionize from fullplate to lighter Landsknecht armor, from Landsknecht armor to Cuirass covering only Torso. Armor covering whole body is stupid idea.

 

So, it was because covering the whole body it's a stupid idea, not because the diffusion of gunpowder weapons made plate armors essentially useless and, as a direct consequence, high mobility became once again preferable to high protection in military tactics. Good to know ...

 

Oh, another "expert".

 

1. Gunfire not effective before late 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia....Charge_(warfare)

 

hihhi, man, you are really funny. You know that, right ?...

 

http://en.wikipedia....Battle_of_Pavia

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_Cerignola

 

And I could continue till the end of times...

 

Starting from XVI century the number of battles decided by gunpowder weapons had an exponential growth. But an expert like yourself surely knows that

 

 

 

2 Fulplate have numerios problems:

- Bad Ventilation

- Too heavy

- Too thin

- Overheating

- Low mobility

- Difficult dressing

- etc. (Read "Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Das Waffenwesen in seiner historischen Entwickelung vom Beginn des Mittelalters bis zum Ende des 18. Jahrhunderts " by Wendelin Boeheim.)

 

 

Fullplate armor used only in isolationists medieval Europe and European always fail when trying use this against East Nations.

 

Like in the siege of Vienna or Malta, right ? I thought European nations started to kick ottoman asses right in XVI century. But maybe I'm (as any other historian on Earth) wrong.

 

PS: see above for the advantages of Plate Armors. If you wanna references. I can give you all the titles you need, both modern and medieval...

Edited October 2, 2012 by Baudolino05

[Shadenuat]

Baudolino05 said

There is no appropriate emoticon on these forums

Wait I'll get something... oh here, to you sir:

 

[TrashMan]

2 Fulplate have numerios problems:

- Bad Ventilation

- Too heavy

- Too thin

- Overheating

- Low mobility

- Difficult dressing

- etc. (Read "Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Das Waffenwesen in seiner historischen Entwickelung vom Beginn des Mittelalters bis zum Ende des 18. Jahrhunderts " by Wendelin Boeheim.)

 

 

Fullplate armor used only in isolationists medieval Europe and European always fail when trying use this against East Nations.

 

 

ARMA would want to disagree with you.

 

Plate really wasn't that heavy, nor did it restrict mobility.

[Katrar]

Yeah, Obsidian listen to this dude! Chainmail bikini and boobplates for women!! Men can stick to full realistic plate armors, of course. Which is what is usually done in these cases.

 

Yeah, because not wanting to put some kind of PC straight jacket on a dev team, so that they can make their own aesthetic decisions (whatever they may be) about their own game means I want chainmail bikinis. Your logic is impeccable.

 

Personally I prefer the familiarity of medieval armor. I like the martial look. But if it means people like you will toss and turn sleeplessly at night, I seriously hope OE goes for the chainmail bikini thing. Really, I'm all in at this point. Chainmail bikinis, you have my vote!

[Caligula Dances]

i would throw in that I prefer more realistic looking weapons, maybe some artistic flare since this is fantasy but nothing of insane proportions like the god awful sword in that first picture.

[obyknven]

...

I fought both in chainmail and plate armor, with swords, polearms an maces

...

ARMA approved

....

 

Reconstructors

 

Real warriors

 

Fell difference.

[Baudolino05]

Cut.

 

Your idea of full plated knights fighting each other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt62wW_NtNQ

 

What happens in real life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfrmCUGoKE

 

Feels different, doesn't it ?

 

PS: man, don't take this the wrong way, but reading a book and quoting some random lines from wikipedia doesn't make you an expert of historical warfare. Try again when you have systematically studied this matter starting from Greco-Persian wars and have practiced different combat styles in person

Edited October 3, 2012 by Baudolino05

[molarBear]

I don't want realistic stuff. I play a game to dream. I'm bored of serious business in later games. I'm good with fantasy design as far as it's not "too much" (I'm fine with "boobplates" à la PA report Cadegund concept, for exemple). Players and games forgot to dream these days.

 

Work under restrictions from licensing and publisher:

 

 

Create your own fantasy world from scratch without any licensing restrictions or publisher intereference:

 

Dull looking fighter type:

 

Feminism-approved female fighter:

 

>> People complaining that they ain't realistic enough.

 

-wholeheartedly agreed. too much realism is not good for health and crpg

-also i fear that we might get some generic D&D characters despite not being licensed D&D

Edited October 3, 2012 by molarBear

[TrashMan]

...

I fought both in chainmail and plate armor, with swords, polearms an maces

...

ARMA approved

....

 

* SNIP *

 

 

You obviously do not know what ARMA is...

 

As this clip shows, there are plenty of historical sources, and practice and experience with real equipment and historicly accurate replaces can give oyu a LOT of information

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6BBq9zE2pY&feature=related

In a real combat the combatants would pull away, but this IS a coreographed fight.

Edited October 3, 2012 by TrashMan

[Karranthain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6BBq9zE2pY&feature=related

 

That's a pretty nice clip, thanks.

[Karranthain]

And with another piece of art released, we have new things to discuss :

 

1280x1024 | 1650x1050 | 1920x1080 | 1920x1200 | 2048x1536

 

Looks like Cadegund, Edair and the Boreal Dwarf are all included. The monk and the mage are in all likelyhood another potential companions.

 

So, as for the designs (if we're to assume that this painting is indeed an accurate representation of the game's aesthetic; but it seems the case with all three previously shown characters present) - it would appear that Wizards' weapon of choice is indeed a rapier and that they prefer practical garments. I must say that I really like this direction.

 

The Boreal Dwarf (sorry, that's the best I could come up with right now) is one we've seen before, but it looks really good in greater detail; I like the tracker look, with the fur armour.

 

The only design I'm not particularly fond of is the Kung-Fu monk, looks like a character from Jade Empire. I'd personally prefer something else, like flagellants, for an instance :

 

 

But that's a topic for another discussion.

 

P.S.

 

What's Cadegund doing with that musket?

[Amentep]

What's Cadegund doing with that musket?

 

Wild, probably wrong guess, she's seeking a blessing for her gun (holding it aloft and holding a religious icon maybe?)

[Shadenuat]

What's Cadegund doing with that musket?

She shot it, player hit spacebar, and ordered her to cast a spell :3

[Karranthain]

What's Cadegund doing with that musket?

She shot it, player hit spacebar, and ordered her to cast a spell :3

 

By the way, the artist who created this painting noticed that the draped cloth she has could be a liability