[Merged] DRM Discussion Thread

[Arundor]

My mouse is hovering over the $250 donation button, but before I click I want to make sure there will be a DRM free version.

 

I see the FAQ on the Kickstarter page saying that "one" of the options will be Steam, but I want to make sure that one of the other options will be fully offline standalone DRM-free.

[Ieo]

My mouse is hovering over the $250 donation button, but before I click I want to make sure there will be a DRM free version.

 

I see the FAQ on the Kickstarter page saying that "one" of the options will be Steam, but I want to make sure that one of the other options will be fully offline standalone DRM-free.

 

I'm curious about this too, and it's the only reason why I haven't dropped money yet.

 

Steam in itself is a form of DRM, right? Is it possible to download a game from Steam and the uninstall Steam to play the game? (If not, then there's no way I'm doing Steam.)

 

So then we're looking at the physical media and other download options, like Amazon digital content or whatever.

[Tigranes]

No 100% confirmation yet, but other Kickstarters have eventually added DRM free, so there's a good chance it will.

 

Yes, Steam versions require you to keep Steam on, which sucks.

[Arundor]

Steam in itself is a form of DRM, right? Is it possible to download a game from Steam and the uninstall Steam to play the game? (If not, then there's no way I'm doing Steam.)

 

Yes indeed, Steam is DRM. That's why I'm worried.

 

You cannot uninstall Steam and continue the play the game. Steam requires online activation each time you install.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Arundor

[LadyCrimson]

I don't think they have it completely figured out how many/what type of options will ultimately be available, so possibly no real answer to that just yet.

 

Yes Steam has to be open/running, but Steam does not require you to be online in order to play. So I find it tolerable in small doses/the occasional game, even if I still don't like the system as a whole. I've come to the conclusion it's just about the least annoying DRM available.

Edited September 15, 2012 by LadyCrimson

[Tale]

Is it possible to download a game from Steam and the uninstall Steam to play the game? (If not, then there's no way I'm doing Steam.)

Sometimes. Depending on the game. It's not a well known or even well utilized feature of Steam. And you have to be careful about how you uninstall Steam or it might suck up the game data with it. So there's some catches in there.

[Ieo]

Thanks for the info on Steam. Well, maybe if it can be completely shut down during playtime... I don't know; still not ideal, but I'm also not going to say "There's nothing we can do about it, alas" because DA:O didn't have any DRM and it still did well enough on the market. (Uh, but then EA added SecuROM to the sequels, so... lol?)

 

I should also add that my concern with DRM centers around the fact that the current kickstarter levels without physical media specify Steam PC only. Thus I'm wary to pay, essentially, unless it was worded more like "a digital copy" which covers a lot of bases, including Steam. Hmm.

 

I guess I'll wait.

[Nefastus]

I'm in favor of whatever allows games like this to be made from an economic perspective. If that's DRM, that's a fairly small price to pay in my opinion.

[Lohi]

Most Steam games that have DRM and were written for Steam also require DRM even if you install from DVD. It's pretty bad. Older games converted to Steam don't do this.

 

Trust the players, don't treat them like potentional criminals. Allow Steam as an option for those who like digital downloads but never a requirement for everyone. I liked Fallout 3 as it had almost no copy protection (you didn't even need DVD in the drive!), whereas Fallout: New Vegas (from Oblivion instead) did require Steam. And I was extremely disappointed in that decision. Need to stand up to Valve and tell them flat out that the physical version will not have DRM!

 

Guess what, we can still play Baldur's Gate even though Black Isle and Interplay no longer exist. Anyone who likes playing old games should be opposed to DRM and the idea that you only play a game that you own if the owners permit you to play.

[Ieo]

I'm in favor of whatever allows games like this to be made from an economic perspective. If that's DRM, that's a fairly small price to pay in my opinion.

 

That's a fair opinion, but I doubt the inclusion of DRM 'allows' games to be made--it's a higher-level business decision that has to do with protecting subsequent IP rights. I'm sure there's licensing to use extant DRM systems and different other costs, like online registration and activation systems that require server maintenance.

 

Not to mention that there is a HUGE variety of DRM and some forms are far more insidious than others; I am not against DRM per se, but I'm not touching SecuROM with a---any length of pole. I tolerate online activation or registration for most things because those are one-time. A disc-check on the physical copy is easy. Or a key tied to one's payment. Steam is unique in that it's both DRM and a distribution system, but the DRM is constant-checking (well, Steam must be running) judging by what others have said, so I personally think that's less ideal than any one-time system.

 

So while I don't believe DRM has anything to do with 'allowing' game development, the other argument is that companies will want DRM to protect future interests and maintain profitability. However: THIS project is being crowdsourced. (I kind of think Kickstarter pledgers, especially those at a certain threshold, should get a DRM-free digital download on a point of faith for having invested. Everyone else afterwards can be shepherded to Steam or whatever.)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll still most likely pledge despite this initial imperfect digital offering, maybe even do the box version, but I'm hoping there will be more information about stuff before the Kickstarter end.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Ieo

[Lohi]

I tolerate online activation or registration for most things because those are one-time.

That's one time per instal though! What if you want to install it again 10 years later? Or the company is out of business?

[Ink Blot]

Although I've already pledged for this proiject, DRM-free is important to me as well. I'd like to believe there's going to be a DRM-free option either digitally or on the physical disc. Really would like to see a reply from the devs on this. After all, without having to deal with a publisher on this project, this decision should be up to Obsidian. I'm hoping they'll choose to trust their fans.

[Ink Blot]

This looks like a perfect fit for GOG.com, so I urge you guys to think about releasing the game there as well. Related to the DRM-free concerns in This Thread, as another venue for release besides Steam, GOG would be an obsolutely fantastic fit. Please give it some consideration, Obsidian. I can tell you even though I've already contributed enough to get the collector's edition through the Kickstarter project, I'd buy another copy via GOG if it wasn't included as an option from the KS contribution and you guys worked out a digital distribution deal with the GOG guys.

[Ieo]

I tolerate online activation or registration for most things because those are one-time.

That's one time per instal though! What if you want to install it again 10 years later? Or the company is out of business?

 

To be honest, I was thinking of productivity software--which have constant version updates and are usually from such large companies that they're not likely to fail anytime soon in our lifetimes--and not games. Have there been games that required online activation but the company went defunct--without buyout and parent corp maintenance--and thus players had no recourse? (It's probably happened, just curious which ones.)

 

In general, though, I do a drive image for that kind of stuff. Not to mention 10 years on, well.... if there's a real issue with online activation/registration, then people will find a way.

 

When I saw the Steam option in the Kickstarter, I first assumed it was for the distribution system.

 

In order of my personal preference---

 

1) DRM-free

2) Registration code

3) Disc check

4) Online activation (I dunno about 10 years from now, true)

5) Steam (the constant running would annoy me even though I have a great gaming rig)

6) Something else..... less insidious than SecuROM but still quite insidious

 

I do understand the business mentality in protecting IP; I work for a company where IP is extremely valuable. In general, it's a risk either way--but this is a crowdsourced venture, so it's not the same risk as a traditional software release relying on sales to cover initial private funding, marketing, and whatnot. In Kickstarter, this is already marketed, already funded/purchased by buyers. The business model is simply different. We should be trusted because we're making it happen already.

[Ink Blot]

In Kickstarter, this is already marketed, already funded/purchased by buyers. The business model is simply different. We should be trusted because we're making it happen already.

 

Exactly. We're showing confidence and trust in Obsidian by providing funding up front. I feel they should reciprocate by provding a DRM-free game for us. It can't be lost on anyone that DRM only impacts the paying customer.

[Cintherion]

Yes, please contact GOG developers! This game is probably going to end up there sooner or later and might as well be at release if possible. Adding the game on GOG assures that people that enjoy DRM-free copies will be happy as well as the game will probably be available for a long time, even if services such as Steam is shut down one day.

[WDeranged]

I want no DRM, I'll live with it if I have to but I still don't want it.

[alanschu]

Note that it IS possible to use steam as a delivery and have the game be DRM free.

 

Paradox games have been doing this. You don't need Steam to be running, and can just run the executable directly.

 

Frankly you'll need to wait for official dev confirmation if this is your line in the sand, because even simply Steam exclusivity does not tell the whole story.

[Ieo]

Note that it IS possible to use steam as a delivery and have the game be DRM free.

 

Paradox games have been doing this. You don't need Steam to be running, and can just run the executable directly.

 

Frankly you'll need to wait for official dev confirmation if this is your line in the sand, because even simply Steam exclusivity does not tell the whole story.

 

Good to know. I'm hovering around the box version myself, which introduces two points of application for DRM. There's over a month left on the Kickstarter page, at least.

[Cintherion]

Note that it IS possible to use steam as a delivery and have the game be DRM free.

 

Paradox games have been doing this. You don't need Steam to be running, and can just run the executable directly.

 

That's acceptable, nothing wrong with Steam's delivery system. The always-on is what's bothering, especially in single player games.

 

I assume to know if it requires steam or not a developer would have to respond? I hope they do. If it doesn't require Steam I will pledge immediately for a copy.

[Alecry]

I liked that the Broken Sword Kickstarter has GoG.com as a distribution platform. It would be great if Obsidian would also consider it as a choice of distribution platform when the game is released.

[bstrothe]

At least for the boxed game, please have no DRM that requires online activation.

[Humodour]

Please give us a DRM-free option, Obsidian! All the other Kickstarters for games have. Don't set a bad example. With the money you make right at the start from us on Kickstarter, you have no excuse to be worried about "piracy killing sales". We don't want DRM.

 

I would also urge Obsidian to join the Kicking It Forward initiative: http://kickingitforward.org/

[Humodour]

Hell yes!

[Tigranes]

I'm sure they'll try. It's definitely the best digital platform by far, I hope they arrange it.