Spellcasting system vs. Sleep spamming

[Aoha]

Old sleep to gain spells system from DnD had number of flaws that hampered the fun of playing caster type class:

 

-Low lvl mages were gimped compared to physical classes such as warriors/archers since they could only cast One-to-Few spells before becoming completely useless until the next sleeping area.

 

-High lvl mages on the other hand would gain access to extremely powerful spells which would in turn make lower tier spells good for nothing. For example one could simply go into the fight and spam finger of death/power word kill and similar spells to quickly dispatch enemy and then hit sleep button just to repeat that again with out having to ever use weaker spells.

 

-Also sleeping for 1 zillion days just to certain area kills immersion for me since it doesn't feel realistic.

 

 

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What I would like to see?

 

Mana bar with certain tweaks added to it that could be give more tactical game play rather then spam your best spells every fight:

 

- Lets assume you have 100 mana, your powerful AOE spell costs 75 mana therefore if you use it it would leave you with little mana to spend on other spells, forcing you to decide which way will you approach this encounter.

 

-Cooldowns for certain spells. If much needed spell has 10 minute cooldown and you still have a long way to go in dungeon using it on group of weak monsters might not be the best idea...who knows what lurks behind next corner.

 

-Mana Regeneration vs. Mana Pool: this could be interesting character building mechanic. Hero skills and gear could allow player to chose will he specialize in having a large mana pool that would allow him cast greater number of powerful spells but running out of mana in the process or having rapid mana regeneration that would allow him to continuously spam weaker spells, or seek some kind of balance between the two.

 

 

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Sleeping ZzZZzZzzzZz

 

What could be its use? Many things, like giving you small XP bonus (10%), refilling your mana/health/stamina or what ever other resource might be in game etc.

 

It should also have certain cooldown added on it so that it isnt spammed, I dont know about you but I dont see my character having sleeping sickness by being able to sleep for 8 hours and then instantly do so again by hitting the sleep button.

 

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Benefits:

-Spell casters could keep up with warriors in dungeon by going continuously from one combat encounter to the next one without having to take a break

-More realistic flow of time

-Better tactical combat and character development.

[Tauron]

Since its not pnp they should add mana/stamina bar for mages. But I dont belive they should nerf spells for that matter, rather make it more tactical. Memorised spells cost less mana to cast and take less time to cast. Also higher % that they will work as intended. Unmemoriesed spells, reading from the book, take longer time to cast and cost more. High end spells might be devastating, but can be exorting on character, as it can take longer time betwean casting or even makes character unrespond, faint etc. Many interesting possibilities.

 

One could boost spells by adding more mana to spell and giving it better effects as more damage obviously. Or even on higher lvls ability to cast several lower lvl spells and make spell combo on fly. Or just ability to cast lot of spells very fast until certain lvl, depending on skill/perk one choses.

[Tamerlane]

Anything but sleep-to-regain.

 

Really, anything.

 

Mana? Cooldown? Something else? I don't care.

 

Just... please, nothing that encourages taking a nap every hour.

[WDeranged]

Yeah I'd be keen to get rid of the camp to regen thing, it's busywork...not that I'm against a certain amount of busywork in a game, for some reason I like having to repair armour

[HangedMan]

I'm joining the chorus in saying that please don't include a sleep function. A mana bar with a system of perks that allow you to have more mana/higher mana regen, as mentioned by Aoha, seems the best idea to me.

Edited September 16, 2012 by HangedMan

[duskwind]

Make powerful spells take longer to cast. A high level mage can wipe out a horde of enemies in a single blast, but your fighters have to protect them for several rounds while they summon up the energy.

[Aoha]

How in hell do I edit my posts on this forum?

 

I just noticed I left out a word in my original post and wish to change that.

 

 

EDIT!

 

Ok I found the button but only for this post and not the previous one.

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Anyhow yes cooldowns, mana cost, cast time should all be balancing factors when it comes to spells.

Spamming most powerful spells over and over again should be avoided.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Aoha

[LadySpace]

How in hell do I edit my posts on this forum?

 

I just noticed I left out a word in my original post and wish to change that.

 

In the same place where it says "Quote" and "MultiQuote" on other folks' posts, yours should also have an "Edit" button.

[Aoha]

Bump for sake of notice:)

[Delterius]

Old sleep to gain spells system from DnD had number of flaws that hampered the fun of playing caster type class:

 

-Low lvl mages were gimped compared to physical classes such as warriors/archers since they could only cast One-to-Few spells before becoming completely useless until the next sleeping area.

 

-High lvl mages on the other hand would gain access to extremely powerful spells which would in turn make lower tier spells good for nothing. For example one could simply go into the fight and spam finger of death/power word kill and similar spells to quickly dispatch enemy and then hit sleep button just to repeat that again with out having to ever use weaker spells.

 

-Also sleeping for 1 zillion days just to certain area kills immersion for me since it doesn't feel realistic.

 

1) Spellcasters are still vital and a single well chosen spell can and will save your party.

 

2) Spellcasters reign supreme in higher level D&D games, I won't deny that. But you could solo BG with every class and kit, never bothered to try it with IWD though.

 

3) Being able to Sleep Spam is a flaw that should be removed, regardless you don't have to Sleep Spam at all.

 

A regenerating mana bar has always invariably caused the death of all strategic resource management. I'd rather the magic system isn't just tactical.

[Badmojo]

No sleep, please no sleep. Get rid of sleep, cooldown/regen is probably the best way to go.

[Aoha]

1) Spellcasters are still vital and a single well chosen spell can and will save your party.

 

2) Spellcasters reign supreme in higher level D&D games, I won't deny that. But you could solo BG with every class and kit, never bothered to try it with IWD though.

 

3) Being able to Sleep Spam is a flaw that should be removed, regardless you don't have to Sleep Spam at all.

 

A regenerating mana bar has always invariably caused the death of all strategic resource management. I'd rather the magic system isn't just tactical.

 

 

3:) Ye I think we all agree that it is unwelcomed mechanic.

 

I dont think that regenerating mana bar has to kill strategy if it is done well. As I said huge mana cost on some spells, cooldowns and character build could all offset this and make one think about how he will build his hero and approach battle.

[Delterius]

1) Spellcasters are still vital and a single well chosen spell can and will save your party.

 

2) Spellcasters reign supreme in higher level D&D games, I won't deny that. But you could solo BG with every class and kit, never bothered to try it with IWD though.

 

3) Being able to Sleep Spam is a flaw that should be removed, regardless you don't have to Sleep Spam at all.

 

A regenerating mana bar has always invariably caused the death of all strategic resource management. I'd rather the magic system isn't just tactical.

 

 

3:) Ye I think we all agree that it is unwelcomed mechanic.

 

I can't imagine why since resting has been clicking on a button. Once. And maybe watching a face to black for half a second.

 

Try playing the Infinity Engine games without rest spamming and you'll discover a whole new game. A regenerating mana bar can certainly be tactical and determine how you'll face each encounter (but I can't remember many example of that): but so does the Vancian system and with a well limited rest mechanic, the game also becomes strategic and the magic system begins determining how you'll deal with the entire adventure.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Delterius

[LadyCrimson]

How in hell do I edit my posts on this forum?

[ snip]

Ok I found the button but only for this post and not the previous one.

This forum has a time limit on being able to edit posts. I don't remember what it is offhand...an hour maybe?

 

Anyway, on the topic ... agree that the sleeping/memorizing is an annoying mechanic for a number of reasons and I wouldn't cry if it wasn't used. I'm pretty used to "mana/energy" concepts and I'd be fine with that kind of system, as long as it wasn't super-easy to refill your mana all the time.

 

I do not, however, like cooldowns. They can be ok for certain types of games, if they're not too long, but if they're very long cooldowns what often happens is you end up almost never using them, because you're always thinking "might need it around the next corner." And then the next corner. And the next. So .. Short cooldowns (a minute or less), fine. Very long ones ... no.

[Continuity]

No sleep spamming, but as I said in the other thread, vancian casting system is a huge part of what made playing a mage in BG2 very tactical and fun. I've never played any game since where magic was as deep and tactical as in BG1/2 (but mostly 2), especially games with that horrible horrible cooldown mechanic which makes the game feel like an offline MMO.

[NoxNoctum]

Ya I hate the mechanic that makes you sleep loads of times when going through an area. Totally breaks immersion.

[Aoha]

Anyway, on the topic ... agree that the sleeping/memorizing is an annoying mechanic for a number of reasons and I wouldn't cry if it wasn't used. I'm pretty used to "mana/energy" concepts and I'd be fine with that kind of system, as long as it wasn't super-easy to refill your mana all the time.

 

I do not, however, like cooldowns. They can be ok for certain types of games, if they're not too long, but if they're very long cooldowns what often happens is you end up almost never using them, because you're always thinking "might need it around the next corner." And then the next corner. And the next. So .. Short cooldowns (a minute or less), fine. Very long ones ... no.

 

Ye that is true that one can be overcautious with cooldowns and then end up never using them if they are to long, but IF they are implemented it would be up to obsidian to see what fits well into the game to make it fun, so yea... Shorter CD =more fun

 

Also I was thinking to have cooldowns only for some rather powerful high end spell while smaller ones could be spammed.

 

If magic is based on around ones Soul it could be reasonable to assume that powerful magic can take strain on ones soul and therefore it takes a while to accumulate energies to recast it.

[Aoha]

Bumpty bump

[Shadenuat]

0.02$: Stamina for weak spells and costly ingredients for powerful ones.

 

OTOH we have these "souls"... feeding on souls to restore magic potential? Leeching powers from long dead souls or enemies?

Edited September 17, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Delterius]

0.02$: Stamina for weak spells and costly ingredients for powerful ones.

 

OTOH we have these "souls"... feeding on souls to restore magic potential? Leeching powers from long dead souls or enemies?

 

Well, anything that strenghtens your soul, I guess. Depends on the setting. But I'd prefer if there's more than just necromancy involved (which isn't bad, but more options and bla bla bla).

Edited September 17, 2012 by Delterius

[MReed]

I'm sorry, but none of the solutions in this thread really address the real problem.

 

If you have mana, and mana only regenerates with time (not with sleep), then all you've done is create a situation where the player casts his most expensive spell and... Twiddles his thumb for 10, 15, 30, however long it is until his mana regenerates. This is the very defination of "not fun". The same thing goes for outwaiting cooldowns.

 

It is far better (in my opinion) to look towards mechanics that reward fast (e.g. "no rest") play rather than attempting to prevent rest-spam, which I'm pretty certain that you can't do.

* One way to do this is to offer extra rewards for prompt completion of quests (not counting dialog time, though, to avoid speedrunning type scenarios) -- note that this isn't a time limit, but if complete the quest very quickly you get something extra (a small XP bonus, a little extra gold).

* Another way to do it is to make quests more difficult (up to a cap, obviously) each time you rest -- basically, the people you are attacking call in reinfroncements.

* Still another way is to create unique (not reproducable via spells the PC / companions) effects that are both highly useful (even critical) but difficult to aquire -- if you rest every 10 minutes, you won't be able to take advantage of these effects for most of the combats.

 

None of these prevent players from resting after every combat, if that's what they choose to do, but given that it is a single player game, why should you care?

[^Rayne^]

I'm sorry, but none of the solutions in this thread really address the real problem.

 

If you have mana, and mana only regenerates with time (not with sleep), then all you've done is create a situation where the player casts his most expensive spell and... Twiddles his thumb for 10, 15, 30, however long it is until his mana regenerates. This is the very defination of "not fun". The same thing goes for outwaiting cooldowns.

 

It is far better (in my opinion) to look towards mechanics that reward fast (e.g. "no rest") play rather than attempting to prevent rest-spam, which I'm pretty certain that you can't do.

* One way to do this is to offer extra rewards for prompt completion of quests (not counting dialog time, though, to avoid speedrunning type scenarios) -- note that this isn't a time limit, but if complete the quest very quickly you get something extra (a small XP bonus, a little extra gold).

* Another way to do it is to make quests more difficult (up to a cap, obviously) each time you rest -- basically, the people you are attacking call in reinfroncements.

* Still another way is to create unique (not reproducable via spells the PC / companions) effects that are both highly useful (even critical) but difficult to aquire -- if you rest every 10 minutes, you won't be able to take advantage of these effects for most of the combats.

 

None of these prevent players from resting after every combat, if that's what they choose to do, but given that it is a single player game, why should you care?

Your approach is more in line with what I was thinking. A lot of the problems with the sleep method had to do with the lack of controls on this choice. For example if you had to complete the quest in a day to accomplish the main task (save the child or get to the evil boss in time) then sleeping isn't an option because time is critical. If you go into a dungeon and a solid rock wall falls down behind you trapping the party and you can't rest until you figure out how to open the door or find an alternate way to rest safely then there is another way to take away the abuse of rest.

 

More xp and better rewards should be a part of this approach to remove the abuse of sleeping to restore spells. That said, I never enjoyed the situation where you memorized spells and could only use a certain number of slots. I would prefer a system that works more like psyonics where you have a pool of points to leverage for casting spells and it replenishes after rest. In this system the lowest level powers could eventually be cast for free because are so simple for the PC to cast. That way even when the magic user runs out of big spells they can still rely on some of their early bread and butter spells to be of value.

[Wombat]

As for time-related restrictions, I'd prefer something like Spirit Eater system in MotB, which gradually decreases as the time passes. Sawyer may be going to use something like that in the "soul system." I wonder if it requires sacrifices related with moralistic/ethical aspect but, thinking of it now. For PST has quite many occasions whether the players to choose sacrifice NPCs.

 

Speaking of which, Avellone wrote of time-limit in his blog. Although I'm against rigid time restrictions, I believe optional* resource management layer can add interesting aspect like hardcore mode. *Remember the spirit eater system was quite unpopular to some reviewers who appeared to be too accustomed to NWN format.

[metiman]

If cooldowns are not optional I don't think I will be playing this game at all. That's how much I hate them. They reek of lazy mmorpg design. If you can't design a game without cooldowns you shouldn't be designing games.

 

As for spellcasting I don't have a problem with having to sleep between loading up your spellbook again. Of course you should be subject to being awakened by random monsters depending on where you are. It would be nice if stealth could be incorporated into sleeping out. If you are well hidden you are more likely to be missed by passing monsters.

 

Of course you could just do the equivalent with a mana bar that takes 8 hours to recharge. I've played fun RPGs with either mana bars or 8 hour sleep recharging. Both were fun. I don't see how one is superior to the other. You could even have both kinds of casters like BG2 has with mages and sorcerors. Design choices like that are a good example of why BG2 has such good replay value. There are also rune systems like in Ultima Underworld. Those are fun too. You could have a runecaster character that needs to find runes for their magic. One of my favorite casting mechanics was the gesture based casting in Arx Fatalis. It really made me feel like I was actually doing something to cast a spell.

 

I guess I wouldn't have anything against certain caster classes that used short cooldowns and much weaker spells so that they can spam their weaker spells more frequently. That might work especially well as a dual class with a thief or other lightly armored fighter that only uses spells occasionally. IIRC MotB had special classes like that. Weak spells but no need to rest. That's the nice thing about a variety of classes. Everyone gets to pick the sort of game play that they like, and even try new styles.

[Aoha]

I'm sorry, but none of the solutions in this thread really address the real problem.

 

If you have mana, and mana only regenerates with time (not with sleep), then all you've done is create a situation where the player casts his most expensive spell and... Twiddles his thumb for 10, 15, 30, however long it is until his mana regenerates. This is the very defination of "not fun". The same thing goes for outwaiting cooldowns....

 

 

There are number of games with mana pools that dont have downtime where you have to wait before entering a new fight, just tweaking mana pool size and mana regen can address this issue. Dragon age 2, Amalur Reckoning are two that immediately come to mind. Also spells/abilities can be added that give extra mana per some action done, as it was done with other games.