Piracy

[213374U]

Halfwit.

 

Do you really,*honestly* believe drivel like 'the suits' FFS? Trust me, whatever happens 'the suits' will turn a dime. The people you and people like you are *really* screwing are the likes of Avellone and Sawyer and Ferg and the guy who designs the cover art or manufactures jewel cases or drives the delivery truck or designs the architecture for the website that delivers the digital version...

 

Piracy robs people of their jobs. Period. The ****ing adolescent squealing of the pro-piracy lobby (or, 'thieves' as we call them in the real world) actually turns my stomach.

 

Srsy, grow the **** up. Because you sound like a tard.

Do you always herp when you derp?

[Delfosse]

 

Piracy robs people of their jobs.

 

Prove it before calling people thieves and halfwits. I've seen opposite claims.

 

If anyone is robbing people of their jobs it's the publishers who order developers to make ****ty games which don't sell afterwards. If anyone is a thief, it's the elite who lobbied the intellectual property concept.

[Hurlshort]

Piracy robs people of their jobs.

 

Prove it before calling people thieves and halfwits. I've seen opposite claims.

 

If anyone is robbing people of their jobs it's the publishers who order developers to make ****ty games which don't sell afterwards. If anyone is a thief, it's the elite who lobbied the intellectual property concept.

 

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

Edited May 5, 2012 by Hurlshot

[Mamoulian War]

DRM is a pain and I'm no fan of it, but it's simply the publisher's attempt at protecting their product. It may be misguided, but it could be a lot worse as well. At least the publisher's aren't trying to make up for the fact their products are pirated by charging the paying customers more. Game budgets have skyrocketed over the years and we still continue to pay the same price.

 

I would rather pay double the price for DRM free product, than to have to trouble myself with that kind of ****...

[Mamoulian War]

But what really boggles my mind is that you still have people pop up and defend the rights of these suits, when they are perfectly happy to trump -paying- customers' rights in return. Have fun getting shafted, I guess.

 

Halfwit.

 

Do you really,*honestly* believe drivel like 'the suits' FFS? Trust me, whatever happens 'the suits' will turn a dime. The people you and people like you are *really* screwing are the likes of Avellone and Sawyer and Ferg and the guy who designs the cover art or manufactures jewel cases or drives the delivery truck or designs the architecture for the website that delivers the digital version...

 

Piracy robs people of their jobs. Period. The ****ing adolescent squealing of the pro-piracy lobby (or, 'thieves' as we call them in the real world) actually turns my stomach.

 

Srsy, grow the **** up. Because you sound like a tard.

 

Sorry to burst your elite bubble, but SEGAs DRM was the reason why good folks of Obsidian were robbed out of my money, and same Bethsoft DRM have robbed good folks of Obsidian out of my money as well.

 

And you will be totally surprised, but I have to this day not played (a.k.a. pirated) Alpha Protocol nor New Vegas... With Alpha Protocol I will sooner or later change it though, because they have removed DRM long time ago, but the damage was still done because I spent my money on another games which offered me less hassle while playing them...

[greylord]

But what really boggles my mind is that you still have people pop up and defend the rights of these suits, when they are perfectly happy to trump -paying- customers' rights in return. Have fun getting shafted, I guess.

 

Halfwit.

 

Do you really,*honestly* believe drivel like 'the suits' FFS? Trust me, whatever happens 'the suits' will turn a dime. The people you and people like you are *really* screwing are the likes of Avellone and Sawyer and Ferg and the guy who designs the cover art or manufactures jewel cases or drives the delivery truck or designs the architecture for the website that delivers the digital version...

 

Piracy robs people of their jobs. Period. The ****ing adolescent squealing of the pro-piracy lobby (or, 'thieves' as we call them in the real world) actually turns my stomach.

 

Srsy, grow the **** up. Because you sound like a tard.

 

It doesn't really matter how wrong it is or how angry you become about it. As long as pirates offer better service than the publishers, people will pirate the **** out of anything.

 

There's an example from the other end of the spectrum: People prefer to buy electronics from trusted manufacturers because of the reliability, stability, quality and warranty. Pirates can't provide that and thus the market is in the manufacturers favour.

 

Reality doesn't bother me. Puerile excuses do. People should just say "I want free stuff - yeah I'm a thief." Then we can move on and discuss. At the moment you've got these ****tards in denial about reality.

 

That's bull, and you should know it. NEVER did I say I actually did piracy in any thread, in fact I've stated that I buy my games legit...because I DO buy my games legit.

 

Obviously I'm not saying I want free stuff-yeah I'm a thief...I'm saying...I'd like the REAL thieves to be apprehended and forced to obey the laws that were in place before they went about trying to change them. Further I'd like them forced to not utilize programs that monitor what I'm doing in a game as part of their privacy invasion techniques.

 

It's like the guy that steals your car, robs your house, and takes your Credit cards. After he's done that...are you really going to feel sorry for him that someone pickpocketed a dollar from him.

 

I have to wonder why you defend such terrible practices that the game companies do to their paying and legit customers?

 

And then you do EXACTLY what the game companies do, proceed NOT to pursue the real pirates, but to put stupid programs to hinder your REAL customers, and accuse them all of being pirates and that's why you have to punish them.

 

THAT'S EXACTLY what's killing the Western sales of PC games for companies...not the so called piracy that they try to blame instead of their own stupidity in customer relations.

[greylord]

But what really boggles my mind is that you still have people pop up and defend the rights of these suits, when they are perfectly happy to trump -paying- customers' rights in return. Have fun getting shafted, I guess.

 

Halfwit.

 

Do you really,*honestly* believe drivel like 'the suits' FFS? Trust me, whatever happens 'the suits' will turn a dime. The people you and people like you are *really* screwing are the likes of Avellone and Sawyer and Ferg and the guy who designs the cover art or manufactures jewel cases or drives the delivery truck or designs the architecture for the website that delivers the digital version...

 

Piracy robs people of their jobs. Period. The ****ing adolescent squealing of the pro-piracy lobby (or, 'thieves' as we call them in the real world) actually turns my stomach.

 

Srsy, grow the **** up. Because you sound like a tard.

 

Sorry to burst your elite bubble, but SEGAs DRM was the reason why good folks of Obsidian were robbed out of my money, and same Bethsoft DRM have robbed good folks of Obsidian out of my money as well.

 

And you will be totally surprised, but I have to this day not played (a.k.a. pirated) Alpha Protocol nor New Vegas... With Alpha Protocol I will sooner or later change it though, because they have removed DRM long time ago, but the damage was still done because I spent my money on another games which offered me less hassle while playing them...

 

I played AP first on the PS3 console. Then (and I believe it was probably Obsidians awesome influence) they patched the DRM right out of Alpha Protocol. I bought AP and used the patch and it works GREAT!!! (I bought AP after the patch removing the DRM stuff was removed).

 

DRM is a pain and I'm no fan of it, but it's simply the publisher's attempt at protecting their product. It may be misguided, but it could be a lot worse as well. At least the publisher's aren't trying to make up for the fact their products are pirated by charging the paying customers more. Game budgets have skyrocketed over the years and we still continue to pay the same price.

 

I would rather pay double the price for DRM free product, than to have to trouble myself with that kind of ****...

 

This. I would pay double the price for a DRM free product. I actually go out of my way if a product is released commercially on the shelves DRM free to try to actually pick it up.

 

Also, good reason to support GoG.

Edited May 5, 2012 by greylord

[Malcador]

Prove it before calling people thieves and halfwits. I've seen opposite claims.

 

If anyone is robbing people of their jobs it's the publishers who order developers to make ****ty games which don't sell afterwards. If anyone is a thief, it's the elite who lobbied the intellectual property concept.

 

Could be both, really. If it doesn't sell well, you could blame piracy for it or your game could have been garbage. Although I'd imagine companies would be more inclined to suggest the former, heh.

[Mamoulian War]

TBH, what I would like to see, if someone would actually try to experiment with offering a game with DRM for normal price and offer the same product DRM free for double the price, and then give us the numbers.

 

But as I see this, I would without hassle bet 50 bucks that in the end some other publishers seeing that the game could be sold for more would end up charging double price for their crippled versions...

[Tigranes]

Wouldn't that be the king of all money-grubbing strategies? First make your games annoying to use and inferior to pirated products, then offer one that IS as smooth as the pirated product for double the price. It's like day-one DLCs on crack.

[213374U]

Did they take the servers down on purpose?

I'm not sure what your point is. If you make an order by mail and it never arrives, does it make any difference whether it was due to malice or incompetence and laziness?

 

My point wasn't "either everything works flawlessly or I feel entitled to take it for free", but rather, that when pirates offer a product that is, in fact, better, easier and faster to install/uninstall and use, and more convenient than the original retail, the industry is definitely doing something wrong.

 

 

Prove it before calling people thieves and halfwits. I've seen opposite claims.

 

If anyone is robbing people of their jobs it's the publishers who order developers to make ****ty games which don't sell afterwards. If anyone is a thief, it's the elite who lobbied the intellectual property concept.

You know what's funny, I really am one of those shafted customers. I wouldn't be bothered in the least by an EA server fart if I actually had the superior warez version installed - chances are I wouldn't even be aware there is a problem. So not only his reasoning is bunk, but also his assumptions about me. Heh.

[Zoraptor]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

OMG COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT SUMMON THE HOUNDS!!!

Sorry to burst your elite bubble, but SEGAs DRM was the reason why good folks of Obsidian were robbed out of my money, and same Bethsoft DRM have robbed good folks of Obsidian out of my money as well.

AP hasn't had DRM since the patch. More relevantly to the argument at hand (and MC's rather emotive 'think of the children' argument) everything we know suggests that Obsidian aren't missing out since they don't get a cut of sales- it's been all but confirmed outright that the only bonus relevant to FONV was the imbecilic Metacritic one and AP would not have made a bonus level even were it in the contract.

 

On a more general note there's precisely zero point addressing people who pirate because it's free. They'll always pirate, they'll never buy and as such are completely and utterly irrelevant- about as irrelevant as trying to sell pork to Saudi Arabia- and trying to affect them will only alienate people who are potential customers. The only people you can reach are people who pirate because it's convenient/ gives a better product/ lacks DRM/ sticks it to The Man, as those are concerns that can be addressed at least to an extent.

[Hurlshort]

Did they take the servers down on purpose?

I'm not sure what your point is. If you make an order by mail and it never arrives, does it make any difference whether it was due to malice or incompetence and laziness?

 

My point wasn't "either everything works flawlessly or I feel entitled to take it for free", but rather, that when pirates offer a product that is, in fact, better, easier and faster to install/uninstall and use, and more convenient than the original retail, the industry is definitely doing something wrong.

 

 

Piracy may be more convenient, but at the end of the day it is still wrong. They are offering a product that they have no right to offer.

 

Publishers may be incompetent, they may be lazy, but they are also the ones with a financial stake in the game. They are simply running a business. They might be doing a terrible job at it, but they are not the ones in the wrong here morally. The pirates are.

 

That's why you see people getting rather riled up about this. It is simply an issue of morality, and when you have a bunch of folks trying to justify piracy, your going to have a lot of (typically older) folks calling BS on it.

[greylord]

ONCE AGAIN, I DO NOT, AS A LEGITIMATE CUSTOMER, APPRECIATE BEING CALLED A PIRATE.

 

Point blank, many who are calling me a pirate because I'm against the DRM methods and think there's no point in going after pirates when you have such huge crimes being committed on the side of publishers...may have ACTUALLY DONE MORE PIRATING than I've even considered doing in my life...and that includes ALL forms of piracy (for example, the icons which someone didn't have the rights for which is theoretically considered piracy).

 

I'm not riled up because I PIRATE...I'm riled up because publishers try to use it as an excuse for their own stupidity and then blame the customers.

 

Blaming anyone who is against the corps and doesn't have a problem with the pirates as being a pirate...shows JUST HOW MUCH OF A REACH these corporations have. They have people turning against legitimate customers and telling the legitimate customers they are pirates!!!

 

Just HOW SCREWED UP IS THAT!!!!

 

This thread has actual EVIDENCE of that (aka...I...someone who's actually is one of the few that actually BUYS A COPY OF A GAME PER COMPUTER rather than what many do which is only buy ONE copy period for all their computers) where a legitimate customer is being called a pirate...repeatedly.

 

And I DO NOT APPRECIATE IT.

 

Especially when some of those saying that have blatantly pirated images in posts they put up in the past, or even in iconology they have up now!!!!

 

I may also be guilty of the iconology...but I PAID for my games...and unlike some who get keys in rather interesting ways...my games are typically bought and paid for at retail.

 

When I DID get a game via an online retailer that looked suspicious, I even emailed the publisher with pictures to request if it was legit or not and the proper procedures they wanted...

 

WHICH I'M BETTING IS FAR BEYOND WHAT ALMOST ANYONE IN THIS THREAD HAS EVER DONE in regards to stopping piracy. (PS: Their response was actually that they had different game exe's in the US and UK versions...and the UK version didn't actually have any copy protection as opposed to the US version...so they stated my game was actually legit...per their official email and letter!...from Ubisoft of all people!!)

 

So calling me a pirate simply because I don't have a problem with people who have NO ACCESS TO LEGITIMATE CHANNELS IN THE FIRST PLACE getting a game via piracy...is LUDICROUS and RIDICULOUS.

 

It doesn't hurt the publishers in that instance, and it points out the hypocrisy of the publishers in the first place for saying that it does.

 

I actually believe that in some cases it actually helps promotes sales.

 

Apple figured that one out...and look at their Iphones, Ipads, and Ipods now.

 

Music sales...without DRM it sold better. Apple knows this...

 

Unfortunately EA and Activision do not.

 

Stop with the...

 

"if you defend the pirates you must be one"

 

BS, because it's a flat out lie.

Edited May 6, 2012 by greylord

[Gorth]

"if you defend the pirates you must be one"

 

BS, because it's a flat out lie.

It's an easy assumption to make though. There is nothing to defend about it really. Not even sucky "always online" DRM and watching your every move big brother style. The solution is really very, very simple. Ignore the game. Ignore the company. Buy something else somewhere else. It seems to have turned into a new culture/tradition with people just wanting to flop down in front of a screen and get passively entertained.

[Humodour]

"if you defend the pirates you must be one"

 

BS, because it's a flat out lie.

It's an easy assumption to make though.

 

But also a really lazy and stupid one.

 

The solution is really very, very simple. Ignore the game. Ignore the company. Buy something else somewhere else.

 

Agreed.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Krezack

[Rostere]

I don't see the problem. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

 

You know, there are also online retailers offering DRM-free products (for example GoG, and GamersGate is also a client-free mostly DRM- free downloading service), if that's what you're interested in.

[Malcador]

On a more general note there's precisely zero point addressing people who pirate because it's free. They'll always pirate, they'll never buy and as such are completely and utterly irrelevant- about as irrelevant as trying to sell pork to Saudi Arabia- and trying to affect them will only alienate people who are potential customers. The only people you can reach are people who pirate because it's convenient/ gives a better product/ lacks DRM/ sticks it to The Man, as those are concerns that can be addressed at least to an extent.

 

Pretty much. Although I suppose they can wax on about morality or just get all ragey over some company's products

[Orogun01]

On a more general note there's precisely zero point addressing people who pirate because it's free. They'll always pirate, they'll never buy and as such are completely and utterly irrelevant- about as irrelevant as trying to sell pork to Saudi Arabia- and trying to affect them will only alienate people who are potential customers. The only people you can reach are people who pirate because it's convenient/ gives a better product/ lacks DRM/ sticks it to The Man, as those are concerns that can be addressed at least to an extent.

 

Pretty much. Although I suppose they can wax on about morality or just get all ragey over some company's products

It is a convenient mean, pirate groups tend to respond faster than publishers and fix their problems and they probably care more about the product than the publishers. If they actually released original content they would edge out most publishers on customer service.

So instead of focusing on new ways to tap into the market, such as providing a stable, trouble free, and simple way to get games at minimal cost, publishers and their investors as usual will milk the market for all it's worth and wait until an innovator changes the product and they will move on towards the new successful gimmick.

[Hurlshort]

As Gorth said, why defend piracy? Why not just attack DRM? They are two entirely different things, really. Many of us here are against crappy DRM.

 

There is really no reason to bring piracy to the table here. We can boycott products, sign petitions, do one of those Change.org campaigns...

 

As soon as you bring up piracy as an option I think you weaken your entire platform.

[Malcador]

Hm, I dunno about pirate groups responding faster, as they are dependent on the publisher to release fixes (as far I know, the idea of a scene patch is rather funny). Caring about the product, heh, well maybe - if the release doesn't work as well as another group that's embarassing etc.

 

It's useful for stripping DRM from your bought games if they're acting up or just bothering you somehow, I'm ok with that.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Malcador

[Hurlshort]

It is a convenient mean, pirate groups tend to respond faster than publishers and fix their problems and they probably care more about the product than the publishers. If they actually released original content they would edge out most publishers on customer service.

So instead of focusing on new ways to tap into the market, such as providing a stable, trouble free, and simple way to get games at minimal cost, publishers and their investors as usual will milk the market for all it's worth and wait until an innovator changes the product and they will move on towards the new successful gimmick.

 

That's because the pirates aren't trying to run a business. Those wonderful do-gooder pirates you seem to be championing did zero to create the product. They have zero investment to protect here.

 

Publishers, despite their many flaws, still make games happen. If all the publishers went out of business overnight, what do you think would happen? Are all the pirates going to band together to release the next big blockbuster title?

 

Publishing is a necessary evil. Piracy is an unnecessary evil.

 

I would love to see the publishing model change. I think it already has in a lot of ways, thanks to innovators like Steam and GoG, as well as alternative sources of funding like Kickstarter. It will hopefully continue along, and as consumers we can help drive that. But piracy is not the solution.

[greylord]

As Gorth said, why defend piracy? Why not just attack DRM? They are two entirely different things, really. Many of us here are against crappy DRM.

 

There is really no reason to bring piracy to the table here. We can boycott products, sign petitions, do one of those Change.org campaigns...

 

As soon as you bring up piracy as an option I think you weaken your entire platform.

 

The original topic dealt with people who had NO access to material pirating it, if I recall.

 

I have NO PROBLEM with people who do that. I am lucky enough to live in a place where I get one up the bum by some publishers when I buy there merchandise in PC gaming...but I recognize that there are those who are not so fortunate (though fortunate in that instance could be a matter of opinion).

 

What I do take offense at are publishers who then go an whine that these same individuals...whom the publishers didn't even try to sell a product too...are causing losses...or doing anything at all that hinders their bottom line.

 

If anything, those people probably have aided the bottom line further down if the products ever become available...as they are far more likely to have the nostalgia about the product and pick it up...or if not that, remember the company or brand and be more likely to buy products from that company.

 

However, that entire reasoning that those companies put out is only the tip of the iceberg of the lies they put out. It's that discussion that we had on this topic that unleashed the genie out of the bottle.

 

Do I put up with the stupid DRM practices....yes...sometimes I do.

 

That doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

Do you like paying $5 at the pump for gas...or however much it is where you are at?

 

So why do you buy it? You don't have to? You have two legs...you can walk anywhere (actually, I have done a lot of biking in some places occasionally).

 

I also have bought a LOT less PC games then I used to. Those purchases have switched over to supporting the PS3 currently since I don't have to have the always on DRM type items with those games. Basically, I was shoved away from being a hardcore PC only gamer to one that is now a console game buyer...and the Japanese companies probably love me (since most of the games come from them now instead of the Western publishers).

 

I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one considering the rise of the consoles over the past decade...and the decline (In MY OPINION) of the PC (except in areas of MMORPGs of course).

 

So yes, I do exactly what some of you suggest in not buying products...but not to the extreme...in a more limited fashion. I took some of my business to someone else.

 

I do put up with the DRM and other items that publishers put out though occasionally, simply because I want to play a game or I want to play it in a certain fashion (point blank, to me, playing a game on a console is a different experience than on the PC...even if it's the same game). Just like the gas scenario...if I want to play what they put out...and they don't give any other options...then you have to live with what they do with it whether you actually like having to jump through hoops or not.

 

But people who they aren't even selling the game too...and then complaining about those people pirating the game...PLEEEAAASE. It doesn't even affect their bottom line as far as they were concerned anyways...since they didn't sell anything there in the first place. That's like saying some guy in China who we never sold a copy of the Catcher in the Rye...and never intended on selling it in his nation...is somehow affecting the sales in the US because he somehow found a copy on a computer and read it.

 

If anything, if he likes it, perhaps he'll go through the phenomenal expense, danger, and effort to try to buy a legitimate (and illegal in China) copy from the actual rights owners....

 

But if he doesn't, nothing is lost still....

 

So espousing such nonsense as this is affecting all of our prices and such...

 

I'll claim is BS. It isn't...

 

And as I said, that's just the tip of the lies they feed us. In the West, piracy isn't the problem (now in China and Asia IT IS a problem). They simply use it to push other agendas that they have (such as day 1 DLC, multiple map packs, disabling second hand sales as best they can...etc.)

[Delfosse]

In Switzerland it is legally allowed to download copyrighted material for personal use. A study done by the Danish government shows that piracy doesn't decrease anyone's profits and instead has a positive effect on the economy.

[Delfosse]

Or read university articles. You can even see from the previews that some of them say that piracy may increase profits.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Delfosse